Studying the Vatican Sayings - Join us tomorrow night July 5th, at 8pm ET - This meeting is open to all forum members. If you are interested and you haven't already attended a Wednesday night meeting in the past, please let us here know here in thread if you are interested in attending so we can add you into the group.
We will announce each Wednesday night's agenda over on this board:
A big Thank You to everyone who attended our Monday Night Epicurean Happy Hour! We had a great turn-out of 10 members. Being that it was a more informal meeting, and "happy hour", I was happy to see that some of us had beverages of choice to enjoy during the meeting. It did seem that perhaps eating while talking during a Zoom is a bit awkward or even difficult (seemed like I was the only one who was snacking). So perhaps we'll just do a "byob" announcement for the next one 
Here is the speech I gave at the start of the meeting:
Are We Living Like the Gods Yet?
Living as the gods can be a poetic way to imagine the best life as an Epicurean. If we have come to a point in our lives in which we are easily able to fulfill all of our basic needs for both physical and mental well-being, have we arrived at our goal? Perhaps for some of us, in quiet moments, we feel that there is yet some unrealized necessity going unfilfilled. We have no master list of necessities which we must achieve. But we can continue to develop prudence as we navigate through our sense of pleasure and pain, developing and using our practical wisdom to guide us in how we make choices and avoidances.
Since we are here on earth, and not living in the intermundia as the gods do, we must work to make a living, and we know that living well requires us to put in both time and effort into maintaining our households - VS 41 reminds us: "One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy."
Recently I've been contemplating the ending of the Letter to Menoeceus which reads:
"So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend, and you will never be disturbed whether waking or sleeping, and you will live as a god among men: for a man who lives in the midst of immortal goods is unlike a merely mortal being."
So here are two places in which the word "goods" is seen. And this could be a clue about the kinds of virtues which can be used as tools to move us forward in living a joyous and pleasurable life. I've mentioned prudence already, and it is referred to as practical wisdom in the Letter to Menoeceus. Also in that same letter we see that self-reliance is a good. VS 77 summarizes it best: "The greatest fruit of self-reliance is freedom".
Also, from VS 78 we know that friendship is considered an immortal good. The Torquatus section of Cicero's "On Ends" says this about friendship: "One topic remains, which is of prime importance for this discussion, that relating to friendship, which you declare will cease to exist, if pleasure be the supreme good, yet Epicurus makes this declaration concerning it, that of all the aids to happiness procured for us by wisdom, none is greater than friendship, none more fruitful, none more delightful. Nor in fact did he sanction this view by his language alone, but much more by his life and actions and character. And the greatness of friendship is made evident by the imaginary stories of the ancients, in which, numerous and diversified as they are, and reaching back to extreme antiquity, scarce three pairs of friends are mentioned, so that beginning with Theseus you end with Orestes. But in truth within the limits of a single school, and that restricted in numbers, what great flocks of friends did Epicurus secure, and how great was that harmony of affection wherein they all agreed! And his example is followed by the Epicureans in our day also."
And also in Cicero's Torquatus section it says:
"What a noble and open and plain and straight avenue to a happy life! It being certain that nothing can be better for man than to be relieved of all pain and annoyance, and to have full enjoyment of the greatest pleasures both of mind and of body, do you not see how nothing is neglected which assists our life more easily to attain that which is its aim, the supreme good?"
So I ask myself, have I realized that goal? And what about you? Have you realized that goal for yourself? I hope this serves as some food for thought, that it bolsters your spirits, and encourages you all to continue on with your studies and continue to seek to apply the philosophy to your own lives.
Quote from DonEpicurus is on record for including both kinetic and katastematic pleasures within his definition of "pleasure." I have come to understand kinetic pleasures as those arising from factors and circumstances outside of ourselves; katastematic pleasures are those arising from within ourselves (such as tranquility, pleasurable memories, etc.). While Epicurus conveys (along with Metrodorus and Philodemus) that we can be more confident in katastematic pleasures, he clearly says that we should continue to "delight" in kinetic pleasures when they are available. It is the exclusivity of "getting stuck in" only seeing kinetic pleasures as pleasure that Epicurus is objecting to here with τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας.
Don, just wanted to add in my thoughts here...I think I understand kinetic (moving, rising and falling) and katastematic (static, still, or smooth) in a slightly different manner. I am coming to this with an intuitive approach: both of these labels are describing the feeling nature inside the body-mind. So the experience of eating something with a high quantity of sugar or honey will always be kinetic, but if you only use a very small amount of sugar then it may be not create the same kinetic experience as compared to something with more sugar. Another example: eating whole grain/whole wheat bread with cheese when hungry could lead to more of a katastematic experience compared to eating a big bowl of ice cream which would cause a quick sugar spike and then a quick fall back down in glucose levels as insulin metabolizes the sugar (and thereby leaving you hungry again within a short period of time). So what I am thinking is that the "feeling-tone" and "excitement level" which arises while we partake of various pleasures AND it is up to each person to determine what feels best, such as if it is a dark and raining day then seeking some kinetic pleasures can help a sleepy person to wake up. Other people who feel anxious may need to turn toward katastematic pleasures.
I want say thank you, to everyone who showed up tonight. It was a very good discussion, with a total of eight members attending.
A further thought regarding VS 9, perhaps this is something of a "remedy" that you say to yourself over and over.
I particularly like this translation by Saint-Andre:
"Compulsion is a bad thing, but there is no compulsion to live under compulsion."
The only way to find out if it works or not is to try it. For example, I want to stop drinking coffee, so I could try for a few days repeating this to myself and see if it somehow actually helps me become more aware and able to choose. But realistically I need to have other options lined up, so that I know what to drink instead of coffee (I have several kinds of tea that I can drink instead).
Managing tech over-use --reasons to check in on yourself with this -- the mental pleasures of the use of devices may be masking other issues such as the short focus onto a device screen can cause blurry eyes, and it can also lead to not enough physical movement (leading to lack of blood circulation and fatigue). And there could be mental effects on the brain (which is something I haven't researched yet). If Epicurus were alive today, I think he would ask us: Are you missing out on some of the bigger pleasures of life by spending too much time on your digital devices?
Here is a very good article with tips on how to go about setting aside devices to bring in more analog time each day:
Hi everyone! Our Epicurean Philosophy Happy Hour Zoom is one week from today, on July 3rd, at 8pm ET. We'll start with a "meet and greet". And I'll give a short (5 min) presentation on Epicurean Philosophy to help jump start the evening. Then we'll open it up for discussion. Feel free to bring beverages and snacks to eat while we Zoom.
Please RSVP here in this thread if you are interested in attending.
Join our next Epicurean Happy Hour! Open to forum members -- Please RSVP here in this thread, to be added to a private message list and receive further link info for joining the meeting.
Level 3 members - let me know if you would like to do a short (5 minute or so) presentation - this could be anything Epicurean-themed, such a presenting some teachings, research, poetry, or music.
020 - "Love Friendship"
023 - "Long for wisdom"
048 - "Be a seeker of wisdom"
121 - "Do not tire of learning"
Don, these are very interesting an no doubt they influenced all ancient philosophers, including Epicurus. What is surprising is the shortness of each one. Possibly thinking to take some time to read through the 147 and see if some of them are parallel to any of the Principal Doctrines or the Letter to Menoeceus.
I was surprised to learn about the ineffectiveness of CPR, and that the CPR process during an old age death is a very damaging and unpeaceful situation. This entire article is very eye opening and more people need to know this (especially older folks). And this brings up the importance of planning ahead and creating a Do Not Resuscitate Order (DNR).
But the true odds are grim. In 2010 a review of 79 studies, involving almost 150,000 patients, found that the overall rate of survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest had barely changed in thirty years. It was 7.6%.
Bystander-initiated CPR may increase those odds to 10%. Survival after CPR for in-hospital cardiac arrest is slightly better, but still only about 17%. The numbers get even worse with age. A study in Sweden found that survival after out-of-hospital CPR dropped from 6.7% for patients in their 70s to just 2.4% for those over 90. Chronic illness matters too. One study found that less than 2% of patients with cancer or heart, lung, or liver disease were resuscitated with CPR and survived for six months.
But this is life or death — even if the odds are grim, what's the harm in trying if some will live? The harm, as it turns out, can be considerable. Chest compressions are often physically, literally harmful. "Fractured or cracked ribs are the most common complication," wrote the original Hopkins researchers, but the procedure can also cause pulmonary hemorrhage, liver lacerations, and broken sternums. If your heart is resuscitated, you must contend with the potential injuries.
This is interesting regarding the nature of consciousness and near-death experience:
The brain is both sophisticated and delicate. For instance, if oxygen is reduced by even a small amount, the brain will react almost immediately. As a result, many scientists suggest that near-death experiences are the result of physical changes in the brain, like the lack of oxygen, that takes place when the brain is stressed or dying.
During the study, which was referred to as AWARE (awareness during resuscitation), the researchers studied a broad range of awareness and mental experiences associated with cardiac arrest. Of the 2,060 patients enrolled in the study, 330 survived and 140 we able to complete structured interviews about their memories of the event.
What the researchers discovered is that nearly 40 percent of these individuals described some awareness of the time prior to resuscitation, or when their hearts stopped beating. The majority of these patients did not have any specific memories of the event though. What this suggests is that many people do have mental activity during cardiac arrest, but often lose their memories of that activity after recovery. According to the doctors conducting the study, this could be due to brain injury or sedative-like drugs.
It occurred to me today that it would be possible to use some basic statistical analysis to evaluate which translations are, on the whole, more literal and which are idiosyncratic.
Joshua maybe you saw this thread?
This next Tuesday evening is our 20th meeting - open to all Level 3 forum members. As usual, we will commemorate the 20th with greetings, a short reading, and then discussion on the latest forum threads.
If you are interested in attending but not yet a Level 3 member, please message me to find out how you can become one.
And then remember to ask yourself: "What will happen to me if I get this or do this?, and what will happen to me if I don't get this or don't do this?"
Just wanted to add... when you ask this of yourself, also consider the wider circle of people around you, remembering that what you do will bring consequences for others as well, and any harm done to them will evoke some kind of reaction, breakdown of friendship, or retribution. (Ultimately the best way of functioning would be "post-conventional moral reasoning").
My problem is I really can't escape Catholic guilt. I wish I could.
I was raised Protestant, and wrestled with some guilt. Guilt in some situations can be good, such as if you say or do something by mistake to harm a friend, neighbor, or community member, then your conscience kicks in to help you think of how you can restore your inter-connection and the relationships.
But the unnecessary guilt you were brought up with is a by-product of an ethical system which takes there to be hard and firm rules of conduct across the board, without any way to judge things according to unique situations. This kind of strict ethical thinking is what brought about the Prohibition in the US. It is a simplified way of determining what one should and shouldn't do, but is not the most wise way of functioning in the world because some entity (or religious authority) is deciding for everyone, rather than letting each person decide for themselves. And this would fall into Kohlberg's level of Conventional Moral Reasoning.
Here are some ideas of how to deal with guilt...Perhaps the practice of noticing the guilt but then replacing it with positive thoughts, such as talking to it and saying that you are free to choose what is good for you. And you may benefit from contemplating a personalized list of what you consider "natural and necessary" for the health of the body, and "natural and necessary for happiness" (on this list of necessary for happiness remembering that you won't die if you can't have everything, but that it is perfectly natural to desire it) and third catagory of "natural but potentially harmful" (this would be things like sugar and alcohol so you want to close pay attention to the outcomes in this category) and a fouth catagory "unnatural and unnecessary" (grandiose desires for money and status). --Notice here that I have redefined the categories (and made 4 of them). And then remember to ask yourself: "What will happen to me if I get this or do this?, and what will happen to me if I don't get this or don't do this?"
Does the philosophy change you? Or perhaps it is better posed as "does the philosophy change your experience of being"?
I realize that since studying Epicureanism, I am thinking more of myself as a "human/animal" -- with the emphasis on "animal" and so now I am more integrated with this Earth and not something "above" it. (Perhaps Epicurus wouldn't have taken on that attitude? Since an Epicurean goal is to live as blissfully as the gods). So this sort of the meaning I give to my desire to sit near a sunny window or that inner pull toward sunshine (just one of many pleasurable things) which are the natural desires of an animal. So then the task at hand is to take good care of the human animal that I am, to accept that task without begrudging it, and to make wise decisions.
Here is an very good article:
Some excerpts, and link follows:
People need friends. They are literally lifeblood in terms of physical, cognitive and emotional wellbeing. And work is an important place to make friends and feel a sense of connection and community. Dunbar says it best, “We forget that at our peril, and businesses forget it at their peril.” With loneliness on the rise and wellbeing on the decline, the opportunity today is significant—to reinvent the experience of work so it’s a venue for meaning, community and friendship.
The Fisherman’s Friend study found it takes about 34 hours of investment to shift from a more superficial acquaintance to a true friendship. In addition, the average friendship requires about 11 interactions and each one should last about three hours—clearly longer than a cup of tea. With this investment of time, making a friend takes about five and a half months. And this is no small thing in a fast-paced, over-scheduled, time-impoverished world.
People also tend to build the strongest friendships with those they believe to be most similar to themselves. Dunbar says it takes so long to create a true friendship because you’re looking for seven pillars of friendship—similarities in the following dimensions: the way you speak (dialect), hobbies and interests, religious views, moral views, sense of humor, musical taste and career trajectory.
This is an interesting read about symposiums and courtesans in ancient Greece:
We will be going through these rather quickly (will be skipping some) and so will announce before each meeting which ones we will focus on. I won't be posting the weekly focus here, but instead will give updates before each meeting over on another forum thread.
This meeting is open to all forum members. If you are interested and you haven't already attended a Wednesday night meeting in the past, please let us here know here in thread if you are interested in attending so we can add you into the group.
Here are some sources for the Vatican Sayings:
-- On our forum:
-- epicurus.net (unknown as to the source of translation)
(this version shows which ones are the same as the PD's)
--Saint-Andre:
(this is my personal favorite translation, and only shows the ones which are not part of the PD's)
Free Online Book: Epicurus The Extant Remains - Bailey - link to the Vatican Saying section
Book to Purchase:
Epicurus Reader: Selected Writings and Testimonia
(Epicurus Translated by Brad Inwood and Lloyd P. Gerson)
(not sure how this translation compares to the others)
