Posts by Kalosyni

June 4th at 8:30pm ET will be an opportunity to meet author Emily Austin! And we will have a Q&A session!

This is open to all forum members regardless of previous book review attendance.

So mark your calendars! And let us know if you are interested in attending -- forum members please post here if you are interesting in attending and we will get the Zoom link to you by private forum message.

Note: For previous book review attendees, we will use the same Zoom link as previous weeks.

(For ongoing attendees: the May 28th meeting will cover chapters 17 - 24).

Highlight 3: The best pleasures can occur with the simultaneous removal of pain, and this an important aspect of pleasure often overlooked because most people focus on the simple pleasures of sensual enjoyment (taste, smell, sight, sound, touch).

From section 37:

For the pleasure which we pursue is not that alone which excites the natural
constitution itself by a kind of sweetness, and of which the sensual enjoyment is attended by a kind of agreeableness, but we look upon the greatest pleasure as that which is enjoyed when all pain is removed. Now inasmuch as whenever we are released from pain, we rejoice in the mere emancipation and freedom from all annoyance, and everything whereat we rejoice is equivalent to pleasure, just as everything whereat we are troubled is equivalent to pain, therefore the complete release from pain is rightly termed pleasure. For just as the mere removal of annoyance brings with it the realization of pleasure, whenever
hunger and thirst have been banished by food and drink, so pain is removed. For just as the mere removal of annoyance brings with it the realization of pleasure, whenever hunger and thirst have been banished by food and drink, so in every case the banishment of pain ensures its replacement by pleasure.

[38] Therefore Epicurus refused to allow that there is any middle term between pain and pleasure; what was thought by some to be a middle term, the absence of all pain, was not only itself pleasure, but the highest pleasure possible. Surely any one who is conscious of his own condition must needs be either in a state of pleasure or in a state of pain. Epicurus thinks that the highest degree of pleasure is defined by the removal of all pain, so that pleasure may afterwards exhibit diversities and differences but is incapable of increase or extension.

Consider for contemplation:

1) your experience between eating a warm, just-out-of-the-oven slice of your favorite kind of pizza when you are hungry vs. when you are not really hungry.

2) your experience of eating when you are hungry and eating just the right number of slices of pizza to feel no longer hungry (and comfortably full) vs. eating several slices too many (eating past the point of fullness and then feeling the pain of your over-full belly).

3) the removal of your hunger by eating the right amount is more pleasurable than eating too much.

Highlight 2: We desire pleasure and move away from pain, but we must consider the future results and future advantages -- and so there are times we will choose to endure pain for the sake of future pleasure, or choose to postpone current pleasures so that the future pleasures will be greater.

From section 32:

Surely no one recoils from or dislikes or avoids pleasure in itself because it is pleasure, but because great pains come upon those who do not know how to follow pleasure rationally. Nor again is there any one who loves or pursues or wishes to win pain on its own account, merely because it is pain, but rather because circumstances sometimes occur which compel him to seek some great pleasure at the cost of exertion and pain. To come down to petty details, who among us ever undertakes any toilsome bodily exercise, except in the hope of
gaining some advantage from it? Who again would have any right to reproach either a man who desires to be surrounded by pleasure unaccompanied by any annoyance, or another man who shrinks from any pain which is not productive of pleasure?

From section 33:

For at our seasons of ease, when we have untrammeled freedom of choice, and when nothing debars us from the power of following the course that pleases us best, then pleasure is wholly a matter for our selection and pain for our rejection. On certain occasions however either through the inevitable call of duty or through stress of circumstances, it will often come to pass that we must put pleasures from us and must make no protest against annoyance. So in such cases the principle of selection adopted by the wise man is that he should either by refusing certain pleasures attain to other and greater pleasures or by enduring pains should ward off pains still more severe.

Excerpt from section 36: "...pleasures are neglected for the purpose of obtaining pleasures still greater, or pains are incurred for the sake of escaping still greater pains."

Highlight 1: Sensation is the method of perception and evalution of both pleasure and pain. It comes to us out of our natural constitution.

[30] Every creature, as soon as it is born, seeks after pleasure and delights therein as in its supreme good, while it recoils from pain as its supreme evil, and banishes that, so far as it can, from its own presence, and this it does while still uncorrupted, and while nature herself prompts unbiased and unaffected decisions. So he says we need no reasoning or debate to shew why pleasure is matter for desire, pain for aversion. These facts he thinks are simply perceived, just as the fact that fire is hot, snow is white, and honey sweet, no one of which facts are we bound to support by elaborate arguments; it is enough merely to draw attention to the fact; and there is a difference between proof and formal argument on the one hand and a slight hint and direction of the attention on the other; the one process reveals to us mysteries and things under a veil, so to speak; the other enables us to pronounce upon patent and evident facts. Moreover, seeing that if you deprive a man of his senses there is nothing left to him, it is inevitable that nature herself should be the arbiter of what is in accord with or opposed to nature. Now what facts does she grasp or with what facts is her decision to seek or avoid any particular thing concerned, unless the facts of pleasure and pain?

I am coming at this from a different focus than Cicero, and I want to highlight those sections which shed light onto the Epicurean worldview. I may come back later to the discussion on "the good", which we find in the text's previous paragraph. (In section 29 it says: The problem before us then is, what is the climax and standard of things good, and this in the opinion of all philosophers must needs be such that we are bound to test all things by it, but the standard itself by nothing. Epicurus places this standard in pleasure, which he lays down to be the supreme good, while pain is the supreme evil; and he founds his proof of this on the following considerations). As this line of thinking is coming from a different philosophical school (Platonic), and which the Epicureans had to deal with this line of questioning from the opposing philosophy. It is a very different focus than the recognition of the mortality of life and the desire to live in such a way as to enjoy the experience of this life we find ourselves in.

This highlighted paragraph (section 30) sheds light on both the sensations and the feelings -- and which together with anticipations (prolepsis - the faculty of pattern recognition) are the three legs of the canon of truth. The sensations are the primary method in which we gather information about the outside (material) world. And we see that the feelings are two: pleasure and pain.

It worth contemplating both the sensations and the feelings. How do we sense things? How to we come to label things? Regarding sensations and feelings can we notice that they fall into only two catagories -- "okay" and "not okay"? And there could be further contemplations (more on this soon).

Here is a thread for further discussion on the Torquatus section of Cicero's "On Ends". Back in the fall of 2021 the Lucretius Today Podcast covered this text. You can find the text here, and the first of that podcast here (Episode 93).

Back at that time I was still new to the forum, and so wasn't able to properly absorb it. Since then I have listened to the audio recording several times, as read by Joshua, which you can find here, and that significantly improved my understanding.

As I have studied Epicurean philosophy further, I have found that this narrative has its usefulness, and yet there are parts that need to be "unpacked" with care.

Here in this thread I want to present the highlights, and also point out (with a word of caution) parts which "muddy the waters". So I will post more soon.

Quote from ThinkingCat

What brought to these forums, is that I have started reading about Epicurus and have ideas of how I want to try and live my life yet it’s difficult to have these conversations with my ‘real life’ friends about this so I seek an ‘online epicurean garden’ here! I wonder what Epicurus would say about this and what he would think about my ‘online friends’ as opposed to my ‘real life friends’

We have some Zoom events for both Level 1 and Level 3 members -- which is a great way to meet people and discuss Epicurean philosophy -- and it is one step closer to "real life friends".

The book review group is open to all forum members, and you are welcome to drop in even if you haven't read the book. Click here for more info.

"Living for Pleasure" book review continues tomorrow (Sunday night) at 8:30 pm ET -- we will cover chapters 13 - 16:

13. Ambition, Work, and Success

14. Greed for Life

15. Misfortune and Resilience

16. Of Sex, Love, and Harmless Pleasure

This Zoom group is open to all forum members -- and open even if you haven't attended the previous weeks -- just let us know here in this thread if you are interested, and then we can get the further meeting info to you in a private forum message.

Quote from ThinkingCat

Anyway my colleague is willing to do cocaine and will go through the come down afterwards because he argue’s that the pleasure outweighs the pain. Of course at some point, he might become addicted to cocaine so the pain factor would kick in then. But he argues that he doesn’t have an addictive personality type and only does cocaine on special occasions. It could be argued in this scenario that he is being Epicurean?! Thoughts!

Perhaps the special occasions are not feeling special enough for your colleague...and that he is already addicted to that one way of making things more special. Also, I would guess that there must be something missing for him and that is why he does it...and the thing which is missing (a basic human need) is the sense of friendship and enjoyment that comes from being with people whom he loves and who love him.

Another issue: there is most likely an inner sense of "dis-ease" because he cannot be entirely sure that he won't become addicted in the future (but I would say he is already addicted now).

This is a very interesting video from a health perspective - lots of good advice for increasing the health of the body!

5 Ways to Improve Your Breathing:

Quote from Matteng

Do you know how the Epicuean attitude is for a general Philantropy/compassion /sympathy or let´s say "social feelings"

Principal Doctrine 5:

"It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously; and whoever lacks this cannot live joyously."

My own thoughts...Everything is evaluated on a case-by-case situation. When "virtuous" actions become separate from the reasons for choosing those actions, then they are elevated to an abstraction which can later cause problems. Since there is no way to eliminate all the suffering in the world, then it is wise to choose a kind of equilibrium with regard to helping others who are asking for or needing some help, such as helping those in our immediate community or location with whom we cross paths. Yet in some situations there is nothing but our own feelings to attend to. We can only choose what seems best according to the results that we imagine will come out from our actions or non-actions.

Quote from Matteng

Coming from the Stoic camp, I tried to practice this philosophy and searched for exercises and have found this:

"A Handbook for New Stoics: How to Thrive in a World Out of Your Control―52 Week-by-Week Lessons "

Is there something similar there for Epicurean Philosophy ?

I noticed the Stoic book title says"...in a World Out of Your Control" -- and that is a very key difference -- In Epicureanism we see that there are things under our control and some things which aren't. And we need to employ wisdom to be clear about what is and isn't under our control, and considering our choices when we take action: What will happen if I do this, and what will happen if I don't do this. Okay, that can be Week 1 of the 52 week by week lessons Perhaps some of us here ( Cassius, Don, Joshua, Godfrey) can collaborate on writing it.

This seemed to shed some light on the subjectivity of translation, as it show some sections of word for word comparisons.

Quote

3.1.3. Verbs and nouns – treated differently

01_latin_order	02_latin_tokens	03_eng_direct_tokens	1656_en	1743_en	1872_en	1886_en	1916_en	1936_en
81	ferae	a wild beast, wild animal	savage	savage	untamed	wild	wild	wild
82	pecudes	cattle	bruits	beasts	herds	herds	herds	beasts
83	persultant	to leap about, range through	jump	frisk	bound	bound	leap	bound
84	pabula	fodder, pasturage, grass	meads	fields	pastures	pastures	fields	pastures
85	laeta	joyful, cheerful, glad,	flowry	cheerful	glad	glad	happy	fat

I just found this very detailed paper:

Comparison of Six English translations of Lucretius “De rerum natura” – Digital Humanities Project Course

Thank you to all who attended last night's meeting.

Revisiting the meeting...I only created one "generic" slide which listed the chapter numbers and titles, then for each chapter I read some excerpts which captured some of the highlights of each chapter.

For me the group's discussion about social media stuck in my mind (as part of Chapter 12) - and we went around the circle and briefly talked about our own experiences with Facebook or other social media.

These four chapters covered a lot so the evening's discussion jumped around quite a bit.

Hi Everyone, This next Saturday at 8pm ET is our 20th Celebration. This is open to Level 3 members.

If you are not yet at Level 3 but are interested, you can message me to find out how to become a Level 3 member.

We will meet via Zoom to greet one another and discuss all the latest forum threads. And as usual we will have our short reading for the commemoration of Epicurus. Looking forward to seeing you then.

ThinkingCat -- Welcome to the forum -- Your recent post in another thread will count toward your completion of registration (as explained in this thread above) -- and just for reference I'm posting the link to your question here.

And, if you happen to have anything to share to further introduce yourself such as how you became interested in Epicureanism, you are welcome to post it here in this thread, thanks.

Quote from Godfrey

It does sound like it would have a lot of overlap with the podcast and the forum.

I just read the description on that site which says:

Quote

About the Event

We will read the great didactic epic De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things) in which the ancient Roman poet Lucretius explains the key ideas of Epicureanism, from the construction of the universe out of atoms and void to the evolution of human society and the best way of living so as to avoid pain and maximize pleasure. Along with

discussing the poem's provocative ideas, we will also consider their revolutionary impact on early modern science, philosophy, and art when a single manuscript of this long-lost poem was miraculously rediscovered in the fifteenth century. Participants will gain an appreciation for one of the most beautiful works of Latin literature; an understanding of the philosophy of Epicurus and its impact on the development of modern science and philosophy; and a chance to think through profound issues, like how we can know about the world, how we can live a flourishing life, and what happens to us when we die, by engaging with a provocative set of philosophical arguments in a group.

 

Here is when it runs:

Tuesdays, 1pm ET - Starting June 13th, for 5 weeks, on Zoom.

I am thinking I may attend!

We will keep an open group for the "Living for Pleasure" book review and discussion via Zoom, for all forum members - so you can still drop into to the next meeting even if you haven't yet attended. Just let us know if you are interested here in this thread.

This next Sunday at 8:30pm ET - May 14th we will be covering chapters 9, 10, 11, and 12, and I will be presenting a few of the highlights.

Quote from Don

one's eye should always be on the pleasant life lived.

And you could think of gratitude as a kind of awareness and recognition that you are living pleasantly and pleasurable - therefore gratitude is always a necessary ellement, as Nate pointed out in the very first post:

Quote from Nate

In nearly every other extant document, "gratitude" (expressed using forms of kharis) is encouraged as an indispensable moral practice:

Although I wouldn't call it a "moral" practice, but rather a wise practice