Posts by Kalosyni

Thank you to all who came to our First Monday Zoom discussion last night. We had a total of seven people. I greatly enjoyed our discussion on "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

TauPhi brought up that the aphorism can also be about spending too much time over-thinking instead of taking action (if I am paraphrasing correctly)...which totally makes sense, and which I hadn't though of before.

Cassius presented several good questions to spur on the discussion regarding the aphorism...one such question being if any of us found that we dealt with this in our own lives.

We discussed several places within Epicurean philosophy which can be related to this aphorism....and this came up, the Letter to Pythocles.

Quote from Bryan

This riddle presents a scenario where a father is covered with a blanket and his son is asked to admit that he does not know who is beneath the covering.

This occured to me when pondering the paradox (and this may going off in a completely different direction and not the intended use of this paradox) but it could be of use when someone insists that the know everything (a common idea in immature young people is that they think that they are so smart that they know everything), and it can show that there are some things which we can know and some which we can't know (the mature adult easily understands this) and the point being that there are many things which we can't know (the future, other peoples thoughts or motives, and even the results of our actions)

A slightly similar yet different phrase: "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater":

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

One place in which we "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" is in De Rerum Natura which we know has some places with scientifically incorrect causations, but yet there still are many good and beneficial aspects to Lucretius' writing.

This excerpt from the wall of Diogenes of Oenoanda may somewhat pertain to the idea of "not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good":

Quote

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end.

Quote from Cassius

So it looks like Sturgeons are both much larger and much tastier than sprats and therefore very easy to distinguish from each other?

Yes, and sturgeons provide enough meat for many people and were served at feasts in ancient times.

Quote from CIcero (On Ends Book 2)

Truly those who disregard pleasure itself are free to say that they do not prefer a sturgeon to a sprat; but he who places his supreme good in pleasure must judge of everything by sense and not by reason, and must say that those things are best which are most tasty.

Just for fun here is information about the sprat (slightly smaller than a herring, they grow up to 18 cm (about 7 inches):

Sprat and the herring family

Sprat and the herring family. Sprat is the smallest fish species in the herring family. in this article, we will explain in detail.

www.mooijer.nl

And info about sturgeons (can grew up to 12ft long and sometimes bigger):

Sturgeon - Wikipedia

Coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion - Via Zoom at 8pm ET - Open to forum members.

Agenda:

1. Welcome

2. Meet-and-greet for any new members who have not previously attended a Zoom meeting

3. Epicurean Philosophy Discussion

This month's topic: "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" - see this thread for more on the topic.

We'll have time for open discussion beyond the special topic, such as current popular forum threads or questions.

If you are new or haven't attended before then let us know if you are interested by posting in this thread or message Cassius or myself.

Previous attendees will already be on the list and will receive a private message about a day or two before the meeting which will contain the link (no need to RSVP beforehand). Hope to see you there!

Thanks Don ! I also think it could nice to learn both modern Greek and ancient Greek at the same time, just in case I want to visit some Greek islands (no actual plans yet). I see that the pronounciation must be different between ancient and modern, and I found this on Wikipedia:

Quote

The Greek alphabet is the ancestor of the Latin and Cyrillic scripts.^[6] Like Latin and Cyrillic, Greek originally had only a single form of each letter; it developed the letter case distinction between uppercase and lowercase in parallel with Latin during the modern era. Sound values and conventional transcriptions for some of the letters differ between Ancient and Modern Greek usage because the pronunciation of Greek has changed significantly between the 5th century BC and today. Modern and Ancient Greek also use different diacritics, with modern Greek keeping only the stress accent (acute) and the diaeresis.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

But that may make it too complicated to learn both at the same time... perhaps I'll start with modern and learn some basic words for travel and basic communication

I see that there are a number of good videos which have been linked in this thread (especially in post 20). I just found this video, and looks like he mentions that he uses "standard/Erasmian" pronounciation... this video is for absolute beginners (like me) to learn the alphabet.

Wednesday Night 8pm ET - Vatican Sayings 73 & 74!

Open to Level 03+ members and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team.

Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Discuss latest popular forum threads & latest podcast
3. Discussion on Vatican Sayings 73 & 74:

VS73. The occurrence of certain bodily pains assists us in guarding against others like them.

VS74. In a philosophical discussion he who is defeated gains more, since he learns more.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members who haven't previously attended (and need to get the link) please let us know here in this thread if you are interested in attending or message me.
• Level 01 members you can message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

*Note: We have four more meetings on the Vatican Sayings before we will move on to discuss a select number of Usener Fragments. So that we can focus on those with the most significance, we are working on a list that highlights those which we don't normally come across in Diogenes Laertius or Lucretius, and that curated list is here. We are going through the full Erik Anderson list and pulling out those which will best be suited for the zoom meetings, and if you have any suggestions for additions to or deletions from the list please use the comment feature on the page where we are setting this up.

Feb. 28 - VS 73 & 74

March 6 - VS 75, 76, & 77

March 13 - VS 78 & 79

March 20 - VS 80 & 81

March 27 - 1st of Usener fragments discussion

I found this video to be very good with relaxation (good for when you are feeling too amped up but need to go to bed, plus many other situations).

Also to me this illustrates the kind of control that we can learn to exert over our ourselves (and our free agency) once we know about this then we can choose when to apply it. It is not meditation and does not require practice - once you know about it then you can do it.

From the description: "Andrew Huberman reveals a simple breathing exercise that acts as a kill switch for stress. It's called the "physiological sigh" or "cyclic sigh", and it can help you short circuit the stressful response." (video is 11 min. long)

And this:

Robert Sapolsky vs Kevin Mitchell: The Biology of Free Will | Philosophical Trials #15

I just found this, which brings up more ideas (have not fully read it yet, plus I am behind on reading the newest posts above).

Author Kevin J. Mitchell makes a neuroscientific case against determinism

And a review of his book "Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will"

Did evolution give us free will?

Author Kevin J. Mitchell makes a neuroscientific case against determinism.

reason.com

Here is the section from Letter to Menoeceus (Saint Andre translation) that is relevant to this discussion:

"For he holds that we are responsible for what we achieve, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, because although necessity is not accountable he sees that chance is unstable whereas the things that are within our power have no other master, so that naturally praise and blame are inseparably connected to them. [note] Indeed he sees that it would be better even to cleave to the myths about the gods (since that leaves some hope of prevailing upon them through worship) than to be subject to the destiny of the scientists (since that way lies an inexorable necessity). [note] And such a man holds that Fate is not a god (as most people believe) because a god does nothing disorderly, and he holds that Fate is not an uncertain cause because nothing good or bad with respect to a completely happy life is given to men by chance, although it does provide the beginnings of both great goods and great evils."

Don have you read Sam Harris' book "Free Will" published in 2012?

Free Will (book) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I wonder if the only thing new in the Sapolsky book is more detailed science. I did not listen to the audio link, and likely will not because after reading Sam Harris' book, I came to my own conclusion regarding this problem.

As soon as we think or speak the words "there is no free will" then it leads to thoughts and words such as either "I have no control over my life" or "I have very little control over my life" and then that leads to further problems and likely a very negative attitude.

So then I must take for my own awareness and my own belief for my self and my body that "I have choices and the power to make choices", but other people are outside of my power - and I cannot hold other human beings to "free will" because they are outside of my personal power to make choices.

But also, we know that some things happen through the power of our choice and some things happen due to chance. Not everything is under our control, but with an optimistic attitude we can go much further with a belief that we have the power to act. And we need to be grounded in reality so as to be clear about the things in the world and in life that we do have the ability to affect and act upon.

There are three ongoing lists created by Cassius. The second one (not Neo-Epicurean but Epicurean) was created as a collaboration between several early members of the forum. And the FAQ page has been developed over time as an outgrowth of the forum. All of this could be used to create an "EpicureanFriends Tenets of Epicurean Philosophy". I am thinking to take this on as project and will post more soon.

Here are the lists that we have right now:

1. Core Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy Emphasized at EpicureanFriends.com

About EpicureanFriends.com - Including Community Standards And Posting Policy - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

2. General Principles - Not Neo-Epicurean But Epicurean

About EpicureanFriends.com - Including Community Standards And Posting Policy - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

3. FAQ page

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

1) We must rely on extant texts for knowing what Epicurus said.

2) The extant texts do not cover all of what Epicurus taught.

3) There is occasionally conflicting evidence between the extant texts.

4) We must be careful when using inductive reasoning to arrive at tenets for which there is limited evidence, because we could end up creating "eclectic" or incorrect tenets. We must be clear on which hypotheses we cannot come to any conclusion, when there is a lack of sufficient evidence.

Based on the above, I think it would be good to create a list of tenets. And this would require accurate translations of extant texts, as well as decisions on which texts to include.

Tonight Vatican Sayings 71 & 72!

Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).

Tonight's Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Discuss latest popular forum threads & latest podcast
3. Discussion on Vatican Sayings 71 & 72:

VS71. Every desire must be confronted by this question: What will happen to me if the object of my desire is accomplished, and what if it is not?

VS72. There is no advantage to obtaining protection from other men so long as we are alarmed by events above or below the earth, or, in general, by whatever happens in the boundless universe.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members - those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.
• Level 01 members - message me or Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Are there any other special topics Cassius ?

Here is a picture of the event announcement, which would indicate that their Symposium was presented in the Greek language (so guessing that the report was an English translation kindly done by Christos).

14PSEP.pdf

The following post-event report was sent to Cassius from Christos Yapijakis:

14th PANHELLENIC SYMPOSIUM OF EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY
17-18 February 2024 - Cultural Center of Pallini, Athens, Greece
Co-Organization: Friends of Epicurean Philosophy
"Garden of Athens", "Garden of Thessalonica"
and Municipality of Pallini Under the Auspices of the Prefecture of Attica
Report on the 14th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy
Information: http://www.epicuros.gr

A short report
In today's age of ongoing socio-economic crisis, brutal wars, intense religious fanaticism and imminent environmental threats, a top-of-the-world cultural event, the 14th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy took place on the weekend of 17-18 February 2024 with the participation of about five hundred Greeks inspired by the enlightening and humanistic philosophy of Epicurus. This is a unique philosophical conference, as it is the only one organized worldwide dedicated exclusively to Epicurean philosophy. It is also the largest national philosophical conference and the only one in Greece that has been established since 2011 as an institution from the people rather than from the university philosophers. It is organized annually with free entrance for the public by the Municipality of Pallini and the Friends of Epicurean Philosophy "Garden of Athens" and "Garden of Thessalonica" at the Cultural Center of Gerakas, located within the ancient area of Gargettus, from which the philosopher Epicurus originated from.

This year's holding of the Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy is an anniversary, as it coincides with the 2330 years since the founding of the school of Epicurus, the Garden of Athens, in 306 BCE. The Hellenistic era, in which Epicurus lived, has many features in common with the modern age of globalization. As at that time Hellenic culture had spread in three continents throughout the Ecumene, the theatrical behavior of kings and their courtiers became a component of public life with the aim of impressing the crowds, there was an abundance of subjective opinions and rhetorical chatter, a great deal of commercial activity that created unnecessary desires, many philosophical views including skepticism about everything, many religious and mythological beliefs, as well as intense political and military confrontations. Epicurus faced all the conflicting trends of his time with extraordinary sobriety. He realized that life does not need empty beliefs but tranquility, so an empirical methodology of knowledge with criteria of truth, based on the objective observation of Nature and free thinking, was needed. The enlightener Epicurus generously imparted his way of thinking and knowledge to many, offering each man the opportunity to choose to live a blissful life by freeing his mind from foolish verbiage, supernatural fictions, irrational superstition, empty ideologies and mental imbalance.

For the fourteenth consecutive year, the Greek society will be given the opportunity to come into contact with the scientific humanism of the philosophy of Epicurus, which offers a timeless mental shield against psychological, social and cultural deadlocks, in the simplest yet most appropriate way of approach of a blissful life, with prudence, virtue, friendship and solidarity, even in difficult times. The organization of the Panhellenic Symposium with free admission for the public is our own contribution to the search for the psychophysical health and well-being of every human being.

With a friendly disposition
The Friends of Epicurean Philosophy

Program
Saturday, February 17, 2024
THE TIMELESS MESSAGE OF EPIKOUROS

15.30-16.30 Attendance – Optional Registrations
16.30-17.00 OPENING
Opening Proclamation Christos Aidonis, Mayor of Pallini
Regards Evangelia Pitsikali, Representative of "Garden of Athens"
Nikos Grekousis, Representative of "Garden of Thessalonica"
Representatives of "Gardens" of Greece and Cyprus
International Friends of Epicurean Philosophy
Message from Hiram Crespo (USA),
Message from Michele Pinto (Italy)
True Glory and the Garden of Epicurus Dramatic reading
(Seneca, Letter to Lucilius XXI – Translated by Leonidas Alexandridis)
Theodora Siarkou, Actress, Appointed Advisor for Culture, Historical Promotion and Tourism
Development of the Municipality of Pallini

17.00-17.45 A. 2330 YEARS SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF EPICURUS’ GARDEN
Presidium: Leonidas Alexandridis – Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
The Garden of Epicurus in antiquity
Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos
Contemporary Garden of Thessalonica
Antonis Bilisis

Contemporary Garden of Athens
Christos Yapijakis

17.45-18.10 Break – Poster presentations

18.10-18.30 "Death does not concern us" Theatrical event
(From the work "A Happy Greek" by Christos Yapijakis)
Director: Giorgos Stavrianidis
Actors: Giorgos Stavrianidis, Yiannis Monos

18.30-20.00 B. ETHICS AND LIFESTYLE ADVICE
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis
The human brain and the Epicurean Canon
George Chrousos
Epicurean Ethics today
Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
Epicurean Philosophy and modern Positive Psychology
Anna Pagoropoulou
The relationship between moral code and nature from Epicurus to the
present day
Dimitris Christakis
Lucretius, Advocate of Art, Philosophy and Science
Theodoros Papagelis

20.00-20.30 DISCUSSION
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis

21.00 Banquet in a Tavern

Sunday, February 18, 2024
EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY FROM ANCIENT TIMES TO THE PRESENT

10.00-10.30 C. SUPPORTING INFLUENCES ON THE ENLIGHTENMENT
Chair: Panagiotis Giavis – Nikos Grekousis
Helvetius – Holbach
Evangelia Pitsikalis
La Mettrie
Leonidas Alexandridis

10.30-11.30 D. EPICUREAN APPROACHES OF THE MODERN ERA
Chair: Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos - Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
The role of team and cooperation in Epicurean philosophy and in
modern times
Stratis Katakos
Epicurean view of human nature and condition
George Gonis
The empty speech of that philosopher, which no human passion cures:
The philosophical origins of modern Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
Konstantinos Marios Zafeiropoulos
Epicurean approach to Education
Antonis Bilisis
The Atoms in the Letter to Herodotus - Correlations with Modern Physics
Anastasios Liolios

11.30-12.00 Break – Poster presentations

12.00-12.15 Musical Pleasure Francesco Bertels

12.15-13.00 E. EPICUREAN LIFESTYLE
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis
The theological elements of Epicurean Philosophy
Ioannis Avaris Kosmogiannis
Friendship as alternative politics according to Epicurus
George Iliopoulos
PA9. Epicurean cure for the fear of death
Konstantina Gavala

14.00-14.30 DISCUSSION

POSTER PRESENTATIONS
EA1. Criticism of idealist misinterpretations of Epicurean philosophy: Examples of an
eclectic and a neoplatonic book
Christos Yapijakis
EA2. Death in Epicurean philosophy
Ioannis Avaris Kosmogiannis
EA3. Comparison of Cynic and Epicurean philosophy
Efthimios Koliokotsis