Posts by Kalosyni

These lines by Lucretius point to the solution:

Our terrors and our darknesses of mind

Must be dispelled, not by the sunshine's rays,

Not by those shining arrows of the light,

But by insight into nature, and a scheme

Of systematic contemplation.

Is there anything else by Lucretius to add to this to be more specific?

I remember now the book "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. Wikipedia has a good overview:

The Demon-Haunted World - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So would this be considered a much more clear (and modern) understanding of what Epicurus was beginning to present, by his looking to nature? When we use science correctly, is it a much more complex system compared to Epicurean philosophy? Maybe it might be good to have a table to graphically show similiarities between Epicureanism and modern science.

Also, the "dragon in the garage" story in the above Wikipedia article shows how metaphor can be used to illustrate ideas.

Quote from Cassius

How do we illustrate through Epicurean principles how we got here? And how do we illustrate the solution?

Allegory is a way to present ideas in a hidden and coded manner -- and so it is a kind of esoteric knowledge -- and I myself prefer to be much more straight-forward. I am not looking to convince anyone of anything. But I would enjoy being able to explain the philosophy more clearly to myself and anyone who might already be oriented toward an Epicurean worldview. And as such, I see no need for allegory or parable.

Here is a better definition of allegory, and it give the example of "Animal Farm" by Orwell being an allegory.

Quote

What is an allegory?

An allegory is a narrative story that conveys a complex, abstract, or difficult message. It achieves this through storytelling. Rather than having to explain the pitfalls of arrogance and the virtues of persistence, a writer can instead tell a tale about a talking tortoise and a haughty hare.

Humans naturally gravitate toward good stories. Have you ever noticed how fiction gets the most shelf space in the bookstore? Stories are compelling. By using a story to talk about big, abstract, or difficult ideas, allegory takes advantage of our inclination toward story.

Sometimes, the message a writer wants to convey is dangerous to talk about explicitly. In these cases, allegory creates distance between the writer and the message. One famous example of this is George Orwell’s 1945 novel Animal Farm. Orwell used a story line about farm animals to express his dissent toward the Russian government, a risky subject to discuss outright.

Source

Quote from Cassius

The Michelle Pinto graphic crystalizes the anti-supernatural aspect of Epicurean philosophy in the "one picture is worth a thousand words" way. Music is similarly effective.

I would call that an illustration of a passage in Lucretius. And I can definitely get on board with illustrations.

I am not sure we need allegories or parables for explaining Epicureanism. It might be best to be more straight-forward on most ideas within Epicureanism.

I found definitions:

"There are a lot of stylistic devices that are used in literature. Two examples are allegories and parables. Both tools are used to help someone present important messages, key lessons, and linguistic tools. Even though many people believe an allegory and a parable or the same thing, there are actually some major differences. An allegory is usually an image, poem, or story whose interpretation can communicate a hidden meaning. In contrast, a parable is a simple story that is used to illustrate moral or spiritual lessons." Source

This thread started out with the idea to create new forms of expressing Epicurean philosophy -- to make something analogous to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" --- but yet illustrating Epicurean ideas. Then, since I didn't fully understand Plato's cave allegory, I got curious about it. After reading about it on Wikipedia, I then found this (a take-off from Plato's Cave) which I think could be food for thought as we think more about what allegory is, and if it could be used for Epicurean ideas.

Just for reference:

Allegory of the cave - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edit Note: Aug. 27, 2024 - to find our most up to date info on our monthly meet-and-greet, click here.

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Welcome to the forum!
We are creating a new monthly "meet and greet" Zoom meeting to which we are inviting all recently joined forum participants at EpicureanFriends and any longer-term members who are interested in Zoom based Epicurean philosophy discussions. We will include a short presentation of basic points of Epicurean philosophy, by focusing on high points such as the three graphics we include in the new members welcome thread (our "Not Neo-Epicurean But Epicurean" statement, our posting policy, and the four ethical points that most distinguish Epicurus from other schools such as the Stoics). We'll also talk about why the forum was started and what we hope to accomplish. There will be time for Q&A and open discussion, and we'll aim to keep the meeting to about an hour in length. During the Zoom you are free to choose video or voice only.

Our "meet and greet" Zoom monthly meeting official announcement usually goes up about one week before the scheduled meeting. Meeting start time is at 8:00pm Eastern Time.

You can RSVP either in this thread, or in the given month's announcement over in this thread, and we will send you the Zoom link in a private message on the day of the meeting.

Some thoughts on PD39...since it has come up in this thread...and apparently I am incorrectly interpreting the meaning of this PD.

"The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus." PD39 (Bailey)

"The person who has put together the best means for confidence about external threats is one who has become familiar with what is possible and at least not unfamiliar with what is not possible, but who has not mixed with things where even this could not be managed and who has driven away anything that is not advantageous." PD39 (St. Andre)

This is one in which it would be good to be able to directly translate from the original. Here is how I interpret this PD regarding "external circumstances".There is a chance that an astroid will hit earth and cause an apocalypse. Also, a coronal mass ejection (CME) could wipe out all electrical systems, satellites, and the internet.

So I see this PD as dealing with threats and how you make peace with these threats -- the understanding of those threats -- what is true and what is not true about those threats. About a year and a half ago, my mom was telling me that an astroid was soon going to hit the earth. Her Christian friend had given her "reliable" information about the Apophis astroid, and that scientists had made an error in their calculations -- that the astroid was going to definitely hit earth. But instead of taking any "bait" on this, I calmly replied: "Oh that's interesting", and proceeded to do research about an nearby astroids. After my research, I was sufficently reassured regarding the unlikelihood of an astroid collision. (Also knowing that there is a still a future chance of impact by an astroid, but not for a long time to come).

Regarding coronal mass ejections, I also researched this, but what I learned was not encouraging -- there is a high likelihood of this causing problems if/when it occurs, and at what level of intensity. So this is one in which we should be ready to recognize the signs of this and realize how it will affect all of us -- and make peace with it. Enjoy life now, prudently, knowing that the continuance of life has uncertainties.

So I see this as expelling mis-information and understanding the natural world.

In a post-podcast Episode 155 discussion, the question came up: "do our senses correctly perceive reality?"

Here is an interesting idea that we have evolved for fitness and not to correctly see reality:

There are many videos of Donald Hoffman explaining this idea, a possibly some are better than others. If I find something in addition to this I will add to this thread.

Brief presentation on Epicurus and Lucretius -- Introduction to Philosophy, at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, BC, Canada

Welcome @Lori

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

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All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

I'm thinking that we need a thread for encouragement as well as outreach (possible facebook posts). This could be ideas for flyers or brief summaries. Also anything of an Epicurean "therapeutic" nature.

Here is a graphic I made today:

Wishing everyone a Happy New Year filled with hedone and eudaimonia!

Welcome Plantpierogi

Quote from Joshua

Since I've only focused on sensations in the chart I'm going to restrain myself to one thing right now--which is that I question whether error really does enter in that late in the process. I think there are numerous visual tests that demonstrate that the brain starts lying pretty much immediately upon receiving input. The retinal blind spot test is a good example. Rather than reporting two gaps in the visual field,

I see you've talked about observing a round tower vs a square tower at a distance. Now what about the sensations of pain or pleasure? These come in through ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and skin -- and these sense faculties always tell the truth regarding pain or pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

The podcasting team had a good conversation during the last recording session but given the importance of the subject we decided to postpone the recording of the first program on Chapter Seven till our next recording session. We expect to be back on a normal schedule next week.

The good topic of conversation which occurred was on the importance of friendship, while we waited for a podcast member to join. There were some good ideas brought up for future exploration. The postponement was due to a technological glitch -- an alarm clock malfunction -- so our window of time was too short to dive into the anticipated DeWitt material.

Off the top of your head Cassius, can you remember what we discussed regarding friendship?

Welcome to the forum!

Moving forward with The "Why" -- I'll start with my questioning beliefs regarding God -- after being raised Christian, in my teens I came to the question of why God allows suffering in innocent children -- and this caused me to doubt, and then eventually I moved on to atheism.

And I just today found this image on the internet of the "Epicurean paradox", which sums it up: