Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Kalosyni

And then remember to ask yourself: "What will happen to me if I get this or do this?, and what will happen to me if I don't get this or don't do this?"

Just wanted to add... when you ask this of yourself, also consider the wider circle of people around you, remembering that what you do will bring consequences for others as well, and any harm done to them will evoke some kind of reaction, breakdown of friendship, or retribution. (Ultimately the best way of functioning would be "post-conventional moral reasoning").

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

My problem is I really can't escape Catholic guilt. I wish I could.

I was raised Protestant, and wrestled with some guilt. Guilt in some situations can be good, such as if you say or do something by mistake to harm a friend, neighbor, or community member, then your conscience kicks in to help you think of how you can restore your inter-connection and the relationships.

But the unnecessary guilt you were brought up with is a by-product of an ethical system which takes there to be hard and firm rules of conduct across the board, without any way to judge things according to unique situations. This kind of strict ethical thinking is what brought about the Prohibition in the US. It is a simplified way of determining what one should and shouldn't do, but is not the most wise way of functioning in the world because some entity (or religious authority) is deciding for everyone, rather than letting each person decide for themselves. And this would fall into Kohlberg's level of Conventional Moral Reasoning.

Here are some ideas of how to deal with guilt...Perhaps the practice of noticing the guilt but then replacing it with positive thoughts, such as talking to it and saying that you are free to choose what is good for you. And you may benefit from contemplating a personalized list of what you consider "natural and necessary" for the health of the body, and "natural and necessary for happiness" (on this list of necessary for happiness remembering that you won't die if you can't have everything, but that it is perfectly natural to desire it) and third catagory of "natural but potentially harmful" (this would be things like sugar and alcohol so you want to close pay attention to the outcomes in this category) and a fouth catagory "unnatural and unnecessary" (grandiose desires for money and status). --Notice here that I have redefined the categories (and made 4 of them). And then remember to ask yourself: "What will happen to me if I get this or do this?, and what will happen to me if I don't get this or don't do this?"

Quote from EricR

Does the philosophy change you? Or perhaps it is better posed as "does the philosophy change your experience of being"?

I realize that since studying Epicureanism, I am thinking more of myself as a "human/animal" -- with the emphasis on "animal" and so now I am more integrated with this Earth and not something "above" it. (Perhaps Epicurus wouldn't have taken on that attitude? Since an Epicurean goal is to live as blissfully as the gods). So this sort of the meaning I give to my desire to sit near a sunny window or that inner pull toward sunshine (just one of many pleasurable things) which are the natural desires of an animal. So then the task at hand is to take good care of the human animal that I am, to accept that task without begrudging it, and to make wise decisions.

Here is an very good article:

Some excerpts, and link follows:

Quote

People need friends. They are literally lifeblood in terms of physical, cognitive and emotional wellbeing. And work is an important place to make friends and feel a sense of connection and community. Dunbar says it best, “We forget that at our peril, and businesses forget it at their peril.” With loneliness on the rise and wellbeing on the decline, the opportunity today is significant—to reinvent the experience of work so it’s a venue for meaning, community and friendship.

Quote

The Fisherman’s Friend study found it takes about 34 hours of investment to shift from a more superficial acquaintance to a true friendship. In addition, the average friendship requires about 11 interactions and each one should last about three hours—clearly longer than a cup of tea. With this investment of time, making a friend takes about five and a half months. And this is no small thing in a fast-paced, over-scheduled, time-impoverished world.

Quote

People also tend to build the strongest friendships with those they believe to be most similar to themselves. Dunbar says it takes so long to create a true friendship because you’re looking for seven pillars of friendship—similarities in the following dimensions: the way you speak (dialect), hobbies and interests, religious views, moral views, sense of humor, musical taste and career trajectory.

New Study: Making Friends Is Hard But Work Can Help

Social isolation and loneliness have become wide-spread and a majority of people say they are actively looking for more friends—and in particular—close…

www.forbes.com

This is an interesting read about symposiums and courtesans in ancient Greece:

Hetairai: Greek Courtesans

We will be going through these rather quickly (will be skipping some) and so will announce before each meeting which ones we will focus on. I won't be posting the weekly focus here, but instead will give updates before each meeting over on another forum thread.

This meeting is open to all forum members. If you are interested and you haven't already attended a Wednesday night meeting in the past, please let us here know here in thread if you are interested in attending so we can add you into the group.

Here are some sources for the Vatican Sayings:

-- On our forum:

Vatican List of Sayings of Epicurus - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

-- epicurus.net (unknown as to the source of translation)

Epicurus - Vatican Sayings

(this version shows which ones are the same as the PD's)

--Saint-Andre:

Vatican Sayings, by Epicurus

(this is my personal favorite translation, and only shows the ones which are not part of the PD's)

Free Online Book: Epicurus The Extant Remains - Bailey - link to the Vatican Saying section

Epicurus The Extant Remains Bailey Oxford 1926 : Cyril Bailey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus - The Extant Remains - Text, Translation & Notes - By Cyril Bailey - BEST COPY

archive.org

Book to Purchase:

Epicurus Reader: Selected Writings and Testimonia

(Epicurus Translated by Brad Inwood and Lloyd P. Gerson)

(not sure how this translation compares to the others)

CLICK HERE TO FIND THIS WEEK'S AGENDA

CLICK HERE TO FIND THIS WEEK'S AGENDA

This discussion group is open to LEVEL 03+ members, or by approval by the moderator panel.

If you have previously attended a Wednesday night Zoom, then you can simply join in with the same link as previous Wednesday night meetings.

For LEVEL 03 forum members who haven't yet attended a Wednesday night meeting, please let us know here in this thread or send me a private message, if you are interested in attending and we will give you the Zoom link by private message.

Cassius' post 27 above mentions the New Epicurean website (which was created by Cassius before the forum, if I am right on that?) and there is a lot of good stuff on there. I think that it also could be developed even further as a resource for people who want more "linear" reading on Epicureanism, rather than the "spiral" approach to study which the forum provides (reading the forum is a bit like going on a treasure hunt).

What is good about the New Epicurean website is that you can read the material without having to "raft through the rapids" of the forum. On the forum you often need to read a thread from start to finish, because a question (or an incorrect reflection) is presented in the first post, and it contains an incorrect understanding which is then corrected through the posting system...so that 20 or more posts later you get the full picture

Here is the home page, imagine this could be developed further with an improved table of contents. Right now there is a table of key pages, but you need to scroll down to get to it:

NewEpicurean – NewEpicurean.com – Promoting the Study of the Philosophy of Epicurus

Quote from stpeter

Preliminary and somewhat poetic modification: I think I'll change "the enjoyment of sleep" to "lying in a bed of desire", which echoes the roundabout wording in the original Greek.

Thanks to Kalosyni for raising this issue!

stpeter thank you for coming on to the forum to help us out. You can see we have had quite a bit of discussion going on here over the past week, stemming from this particular passage.

I greatly appreciate your translations of Epicurean texts and how easy they are to access on the internet. I use your translations from your website all the time in my study and referencing. And when I first started studying I actually printed them out for reading off-line as well. So I have been referring to your translations for several years now because they are my favorite.

Thanks again for coming onto the forum...and as it was said that on the sign above the ancient Epicurean Garden door, it was written: "Here you will do well to tarry. Here our highest good is Pleasure!"

Hope you decide to hang out here awhile

stpeter Welcome to the forum!

I just created this new post in my blog, and I start out with points 1 - 3 (and will add another post soon on points 4 - 8).

(Click on the image below to visit my blog and read further):

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is the text from Peter Saint-Andre:

"So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people or the enjoyment of sleep, as is believed by those who are ignorant or who don't understand us or who are ill-disposed to us, but to be free from bodily pain and mental disturbance. For a pleasant life is produced not by drinking and endless parties and enjoying boys and women and consuming fish and other delicacies of an extravagant table, but by sober reasoning, searching out the cause of everything we accept or reject, and driving out opinions that cause the greatest trouble in the soul."

So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean over-indulgence or indolence, as is believed by those who are ignorant, who don't understand correctly, or who oppose our school.

Quote from TauPhi

My proposition is rather more poetic than literal translation; more in the style of Lucretius than Epicurus and purely for entertainment purposes.

Here it is: 'those who are sleepwalking in boundless, sensual indulgence'.

This brings up a further idea...and just wanting to mention, that sensation and sensual indulgence naturally has a limit when one is paying attention to the underlying feeling of pleasure or pain. So when we are paying attention then we naturally stop doing things which are painful. It is only things like fame and fortune (and other "groundless" desires) that do not have limits (maybe because they exist in an abstract sense beyond pleasure and pain).

(There is nothing "wrong" with sensual experiences).

It is possible we already have a chart for this but just for fun I am making this one, and will add in more details soon.

Chart comparing the goal for the various ancient Greek philosophies

Quote from Pacatus

Professor Austin, how did you yourself come to Epicureanism – both as a subject for your scholarship, and for your personal life?

(I know you fleshed this out a bit in the final chapter of your book.)

Thanks Pactatus for the question...and Emily explains that in the opening of the previous podcast interview, so we may end up skipping that question and instead jumping right into the philosophy questions (or possibly having a very short two sentence summary).

Her introduction is in Episode 156 (see post 6 above for the link).

Quote from ThinkingCat

“what does it mean to you personally to be epicurean in 30 words or less?”, what would your response be?

Pleasure, my natural goal: to remove pain and anxiety and experience the pleasures of sensation. With prudence overcoming the sorrows of life and experiencing sweetness. Smiling, being alive feels good!

(And...study and practice the philosophy with others of like mind).

Possible questions for Emily:

Now that you have written the book and also been interviewed a number of times...

---Do you have thoughts on how to bridge the gap between people who like to "philosophize" and those who are more into "self-help"?

---Will Epicureanism be forever deemed as somehow "esoteric" and beyond the ability or interest of many people?

---Do you see dangers in the possible development of a "pop-culture Epicureanism"?

---Any further thoughts on the parts of Epicurean philosophy which seem to be understood with divergent interpretations...for example "ataraxia" or the meaning of "pleasure"?

Quote from ThinkingCat

Some people quite into physical pleasure for its own sake calling themselves cyreaniacs (or something like that).

Pleasure for its own sake is the goal given to us by nature which we observe in babies, animals, and as adult humans we redeem pleasure from the false belief that it is somehow "wrong".

As for the ancient Cyrenaics, they didn't take the relief from pain as a pleasure, nor the pleasure of mental pleasures, so they focused on "in the now" and stimulating pleasures -- and this is very different than the Epicurean understanding of pleasure. Perhaps if there are people on here saying they are "cyrenaic" then they are just trying to emphasize the sensual aspect of pleasure as being okay.

As we see that Diogenes Laertius says that Epicurus said:

“I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, of sex, of sound, and the pleasures of beautiful form.”

So the Epicureans are totally fine with sensual pleasure, but as long as they also address the removal of any mental disturbances such as fear of death, fear of "irrational" punishment from the gods, or fear of pain (strong pain is short, and dull pains don't stop the enjoyment of pleasure).

Quote from ThinkingCat

The problem I’m having reading around the forum is that everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what Epicureans should be. I understand this is going to happen but reading between the lines people seem to hold quite different views. Some people quite into physical pleasure for its own sake calling themselves cyreaniacs (or something like that). This doesn’t seem to fit with the Epicurean view at all and I’m finding it quite confusing and almost contradictory and rather go back to the source if possible.

The way that I take it is to always return to the extant writings and to contemplate them. Then you must work to apply them to your own life. For one person a very sensual pleasure may end up bring too much pain, as compared to another person - some people choose not to drink any alcohol where as others are able to choose to drink in such a way that it doesn't cause them future pains (they drink to enjoy the taste and not to "medicate" into drunkeness, although there may be a time a place for a slight drunkenness if one is able to still hold onto free choice while intoxicated, and wisely making sure not to drive a vehicle while drunk).

So we don't categorize things as "right" or "wrong" -

Principal Doctrine 8:

"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves." So it is a case by case situation that only you can decide for yourself.

I just created this graphic which may help: