Posts by Kalosyni

  • Visiting Herculaneum Travel Tips

    I found this interesting article, newly published, with tips and also compares Herculaneum vs Pompeii. Perfect for "armchair travelers" (such as myself) ...or others who may hope to some day travel to Italy. ( Martin)

    The Villa de Papyri is in Herculaneum, but I am not certain if that is open.

    This article is long (be sure to keep scrolling past the many pictures/ads, as there are lots of details).

    How to visit Herculaneum (and 3 huge reasons why you should) - Helen on her Holidays
    Visiting Herculaneum, a Roman city destroyed at the same time as Pompeii, is really rewarding. Here's how to visit Herculaneum on your trip to Italy.
    www.helenonherholidays.com

  • Thinking About Death - Preparation for Death and Dealing With Death of Loved Ones

    In Letter to Menoeceus, it says:

    "...train yourself to hold that death is nothing to us, because good and evil consist in sensation, and death is the removal of sensation. A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable — not because it gives you an unbounded span of time, but because it removes the desire for immortality. There is nothing terrifying in life to someone who truly understands that there is nothing terrifying in the absence of life."

    Joshua brought up during the last podcast the phrase "accustom yourself" to hold that death is nothing to us -- and that can be contemplating that the dying process is a natural process. And we have modern medicine now to help with the process.

    Here is a very good article about the process of dying -- death due to incurable illness in old age.

    Quote

    It's hard to ask your doctor what dying will be like. Death is a reality everyone will face one way or another. If you have an incurable illness, knowing what to expect as your body shuts down helps you prepare for as "good" of death as possible.

    https://healthnews.com/family-health/end-of-life-care/what-is-dying-like-a-nurse-explains-what-dying-bodies-do/

    I think it is important to contemplate this, and to let this be motivating toward living a full and pleasurable life.

  • Dealing with the Feeling of Frustration - a practical method

    Quote from Matteng

    Stoics tend to see the happy life as erasing frustrations ((a)pathe).


    What would be the alternative in Epicurus' philosophy?

    Here is the Vatican Saying 21:

    "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

    For Epicureans it is important to pay attention to needs -- needs of the body and needs for happiness. And to find practical solutions -- by asking "What is in my power to change?"

    And in the Letter to Menoeceus: "...keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself."

    So for practical application, from modern psychology:

    Painful emotions and painful feelings are like a warning light that a need of the body or of the soul is not being met, or we are in danger of losing something we believe that we need. The problem being that when we only have one way to meet a need, than we are stuck if we don't get that one way (or can't use that one strategy). So getting unstuck requires us to see other strategies for meeting our needs, as well as making peace with situations in which can't be changed.

    Signs that a need is going unmet, or may go unmet in the future:

    sadness

    frustration

    anger

    fear

    anxiety

    worry

    Signs that a need is being met effectively:

    happy

    enthusiastic

    thankful

    peaceful

    satisfied/content

    Some universal human needs:

    food/water/shelter/clothing

    safety/trust

    competence/skills

    rest/play

    belonging/understanding

    respect/consideration

    autonomy/choice

    etc.

    I haven't yet studied Philodemus, so can't add anything from that.

    Quote from Matteng

    Emotions that cause suffering (pain ? )such as anxiety/obsessive-compulsive disorders should probably be countered as the Stoics or CBT envisage, but perhaps in a milder form?

    OCD is a complex issue and is a separate issue than just anxiety (and different than phobias) -- there is probably a lot about what kinds of modalities of modern psychotherapy work for these issues, but haven't researched.

    In another thread, there was something about CBT having some problems, and could make some conditions worse.

  • Starting a closed in-person/zoom/social media mixed Epicurean Study Group; Utilizing this Website and Where to Start

    I just realized that VS21 is another very important guide for interpretation of the Epicurean philosophy, and to point out that it is more than just necessary desires that we seek to fulfill -- and therefore a "simple life" of "minimalism" and "tranquility" is not the Epicurean goal. (And btw what I mean by "tranquility" is a life of dawdling or being like a stick in the mud, and so probably another word other than tranquility is needed.) And the true goal could also be better understood by the word "engaged" -- actively engaged with pursuing pleasure.

    Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:

    Quote

    The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.[225]

    Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.[215]

    Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.[218]

    It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:

    1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?

    2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).

  • Registered user private conversations

    Registered users please check to see if you have received a private conversation message (see below for how to do so). It appears that the private conversations option is not optimized when using your cell phone for viewing the forum.

    Almost all discussions are held on the public forum, because we all benefit from philosophizing together as a community.

    However the forum does give an option for private conversations.

    Private conversations are most often used to announce Zoom meeting links and updates.

    If you are a registered user and you are using your cell phone to read the forum, please be aware that the private conversations notification is indicated by a red dot on your round profile icon. You need to click on your profile icon which will open your "User Menu" and then click on "Conversations".

    Let us know if you have any further questions. :)

  • Starting a closed in-person/zoom/social media mixed Epicurean Study Group; Utilizing this Website and Where to Start

    Yes and I think audio material is great for "newbies"...for ease of reference here are some links:

    Part: 1

    Thread

    Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One

    Welcome to episode 156, a special two-part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where…
    Cassius
    January 10, 2023 at 12:58 AM

    Part 2:

    Thread

    Episode 157 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part Two

    Welcome to episode 157, part two of a special two part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at…
    Cassius
    January 19, 2023 at 10:13 AM

    And the YouTube version which is all in one piece:

    Also, this particular YouTube was helpful for me when I first started out:

    "Major Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy" (Cassius gives an overview)

  • Dealing with Marital Conflict

    Friendship is an important aspect of happiness and well-being. And, in marriage, friendship is considered very important now in our current times. Some people do not have any close friends other than their spouse. Having friends (other than a spouse) is especially difficult for those people who move to different cities for career changes. Of course this puts a lot expectation and pressure on marriage. It will be inevitable that differences in opinion will arise, and knowing how to work through that is of utmost importance.

    Here are some links to some very good information which explains a major source of conflict in marriage -- if one (or both partners) are "other-blamers" -- how to recognize it and what to do.

    Quote

    Other-Blamers manage the feeling of shame with a lack of accountability. The key behavioral sign is hyper-vigilance to and over-reactivity to criticism. Other-Blamers tend to argue or attack to keep any taint of blame from landing close.

    While these strategies provide comfort to the individual, they are counterproductive in relationships. Other-Blaming is often at the root of relationship problems, because of the reluctance to admit fault.
    Quote

    In some people, the experience of shame triggers a fearful response, overwhelming the cognitive functioning of the brain, leading to fear-based behaviors of reacting rather than responding thoughtfully.

    They are highly motivated to manage their shame and fear and respond with three predictable and easily identified behavioral responses called Counterproductive Shame Management Strategies:

    1. Other-Blaming
    2. Self-Blaming
    3. Blame Avoiding

    The simple key to understanding the three Shame Management Strategies is the answer to this question: How does the person handle criticism?

    When held accountable for a behavior, what does the person do?

    • blame others
    • blame themselves, or
    • preemptively try to avoid blame

    Be sure to read both of following links, if you are interested in learning more.

    Improve Your Relationships: Overcome Low Self-Worth • Harper West
    Stop arguing too much in your relationship. How to improve relationships by understanding the impact of shame. Anger and arguments may be caused by poor shame…
    www.harperwest.co
    How Do You Handle Shame? Learning Self Acceptance • Harper West
    Do you want to learn to handle shame better? How do you handle embarrassment? By blame yourself, blame others, avoid blame? Learning self-acceptance improves…
    www.harperwest.co

  • Dealing with the Feeling of Frustration - a practical method

    I created a flow chart to illustrate possible ways to deal with the feeling of frustration.

    Wikipedia: "In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition [or unexpected obstacles to goal fulfillment], related to anger, annoyance, and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked." (Wikipedia article).

    Is the following chart helpful? Is there anything which should be added or changed?

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Quote from Nate

    His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,

    Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.

    As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".

    Quote

    In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration


    Frustration - Wikipedia
    en.m.wikipedia.org

    Coping - Wikipedia

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Quote from Kalosyni

    3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

    Quote
    Feelings: emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

    You can read all about "faux feelings" here:

    Faux Feelings – Making Life More Wonderful

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Eikadistes, as I look over it some more:

    1. my concern continues to be that these will end up dealing with "symptoms" and not "causes" of feelings and emotions. Also, you'll want to have your sense of anger working correctly, so it is there for you when you need it, and you should not be trying to tamp it down. So a truly emotionally healthy person will feel a rainbow of feelings and emotions, but they will not be perplexed, overwhelmed by, or stuck in their feelings/emotions. There will be a healthy flow. And healthy anger when it does arise won't be a big blowout, but a recognition of bodily feelings. And so...We need not the appearance of health but actual true health (VS54)

    2. Verses taken out of context: -- the first listing under "persecuted" from Letter to Menoeceus; -- VS62 under "anger" is specifically between parents and children (perhaps there are others).

    3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Quote from Cassius

    I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree.

    Exactly! And so understanding the difference between protective use of force vs punitive use of force is very important, and will lead to better future outcomes.

    Quote

    Protective use of force vs. Punitive use of force

    Protective vs. punitive use of force (difference is in intention) protective force's intention protects from injuries or accidents or misuse of someone's rights and or loss of life. Punitive use of force has an intention to change the other person through punishment or reward, to teach how they "should" do.

    ...If the intention is only to protect my own need, then it’s justified. That’s the only time force is justified. I must have no desire to make the other person suffer.

    https://en.nvcwiki.com/index.php/Prot…ve_use_of_force


    And this would support: "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."

    Quote from Cassius

    On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content :)

    In this type of document things could be "taken out of context" (how many Christian preachers do this with the Bible?).

    And we don't know in what manner Epicurus taught. All we have is what later people (after Epicurus) copied or wrote down, and it is impossible to rule out that they "re-interpreted" things.

    Diogenes Laertius lived in the 3rd Century CE (Wikipedia)

    Epicurus lived in 341 - 270 BCE -- here is a link to a graphic timeline comparing several other historical figures who wrote on Epicurean philosophy.

    So...we must understand the foundations of Epicurean philosophy and then everything must be viewed in light of the very basic foundations -- and ask this: "Does it lead to pleasure, joy and happiness?"

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Here is an overview of how NVC suggests dealing with anger:


    Nonviolent Communication for Anger - PuddleDancer Press
    There are great benefits of Nonviolent Communication for anger. NVC helps us handle this powerful emotion inside ourselves and with others in a healthy way
    www.nonviolentcommunication.com

  • Epicurean Verse For When You're Feeling...

    Wow! Eikadistes, That is a big collection of "Epicurean verses" and I can imagine that this took a lot of work to compile.

    I had some feelings/reactions come up as I did a quick skim of it. And my feelings probably are due to the time that I spent studying "Compassionate Communication" also called Nonviolent Communication -- NVC, by Marshall Rosenberg. Within NVC, it deals directly with why feelings arise in the first place, and then when we clearly understand a given situation we can more effectively make choices and take action. The actions we take are not to just get rid of a feeling (such as just to remove the symptom) but to address the root cause of a feeling -- and to make changes which lead to more pleasure and happiness in life.

    It is very interesting to see the verses, and how they might tie in together with emotions and feelings. But I do wonder if this is really effective for helping people? How many of these verses actually help with the root causes of feelings and emotions? How many of these verses help with making the best "choices and avoidances" without "guilting" someone, but instead inviting someone to see the truth on their own terms? I would really need to read through much more closely to evaluate each one.

    Perhaps a slightly different formating could make it work for some of the material which helps deal with root causes.

    To illustrate further, I would only trust something which has a feeling of compassion toward feelings and emotions, and not an authoritarian tone of "right/wrong" -- if there is even the slightest sense of something suggesting: "Shut up and stop crying" then I would not use it even if purported to be said by Epicurus.

  • Starting a closed in-person/zoom/social media mixed Epicurean Study Group; Utilizing this Website and Where to Start

    Another option would be to follow an outline of some kind, and think there are many different outlines here on the forum.

    You may have seen that we've been working on creating an Epicurean Week program, and potentially this could be of help:

    Epicurean Week Development Project - Epicureanfriends.com
    www.epicureanfriends.com

    It isn't very developed yet, but in the coming weeks this should be fleshed out a bit more, including practical exercises:

    Epicurean Week Development Project - Epicureanfriends.com
    www.epicureanfriends.com

  • Testing ChatGPT with Epicurean Philosophy

    Quote from Don

    I think it is extremely dangerous to consult "answers" from AI chatbots, no matter how sophisticated, to questions like this. I will admit it can be a novelty or intriguing, but any answers we want to questions like that should be weighed against *human* feelings and sensations.

    Perhaps the biggest danger is that somehow any human being might be tempted to give ChatGPT some kind of "authority status" and to somehow think that it is smarter than any human being.

    For example, if you had to "weigh" this:

    -- Kalosyni says "xyz" vs ChatGPT says "xyz"

    It is possible that some people out there would give more credit to ChatGPT?

    In some sense asking certain questions of ChatGPT is "lazy", and I myself could sit down and think and write out a list of possible answers, especially given my own knowledge of the world based on my 52 years of existence. But a much younger person, for example a teenager, won't have the knowledge to do that.

    And in some ways it isn't any different than asking the opinion of another human being. When I was attending a Buddhist Zen group, there would sometimes be new people asking questions that were very "simple" (almost cringeworthy) which most likely they should have just taken the time to answer for themselves (but the Zen teacher would answer anyway).

    Quote from Cassius

    No doubt, but it's also inevitable that millions (billions?) of people are soon going to be doing exactly that, so we'll need to want to explore this - just as you are doing - so we can figure out the best response.

    I think we should create a special section perhaps (and which has it's own folder).

    I personally think that this particular question that I started the thread out with: "What are the limits of desires?" to be a worthwhile question. And in some ways the ChatGPT maybe didn't fully answer it, so will need to think some more on it.

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