Quote from Cassius

And by the way, the ultimate aim and description of the goal is not "the tranquil life." The proper wording is "the PLEASANT life."

And she knows that. The title of the book is not "Living For Tranquility."

Good to point that out. And thinking further about "unnecessary" desires -- I don't like that word "unnecessary" either, lol.

We don't label a desire as unnecessary until for a particular individual they see for themselves that it is so -- when they see that it brings more pain than pleasure, causes way too much pain to aquire it, or is impossible to aquire -- and this can only be determined by that individual AND at a later time that person may be in a different situation and decide to pursue that desire.

So in some sense "unnecessary" is really an artificial label used as a "coping mechanism" -- there are no absolutely unnecessary desires.

Do you think this is correct?

Labels shape how we think, and so I don't like the word extravagant one bit:

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

extravagant

adjective

ex·trav·a·gant ik-ˈstra-vi-gənt 

1 a : exceeding the limits of reason or necessity extravagant claims 
b : lacking in moderation, balance, and restraint extravagant praise 
c : extremely or excessively elaborate an extravagant display 
  2 : extremely or unreasonably high in price an extravagant purchase 
  3 a : spending much more than necessary has always been extravagant with her money 
b : profuse, lavish

All of this brings up for me the importance of not creating an exact list of what brings pleasure and what brings happiness -- because it will depend on the environment and culture that one is living in.

Metrodorus, as quoted in the book:

Quote

I hear from you that the movement of your flesh is abundantly disposed toward sexual intercourse. As long as you do not break the laws or disturb noble and settled customs or vex any of your neighbors or wear out your body or use up the things necessary for life, indulge yourself in any way you prefer. However, it is impossible not be constrained by some one of these things. For sex never profits, and one must be content if it does not harm.5

The idea that "sex never profits" is no longer true, as studies have shown it is good for the health of the body -- And there is birth control, and the consent movement.

I've barely started the book, and I am reading the chapters out of order... chapter 16 - the label of "extravagant desires" doesn't seem quite right to me.

Quote

Nevertheless, Epicurus thinks sexual pleasure and committed romantic relationships are natural, but unnecessary, desires (or so I argue). In the terms of this book, they are extravagant desires, and all extravagant desires can adorn the tranquil life if you do them right.

If you live in a location where everyone surrounding you is in a committed romantic relationship, then you will be the odd one out. If you live in a location where everyone is not in a committed relationship but you are, then you will be the odd one out in that situation. Your environment and the culture that surrounds you will affect you, as it does to any animal. What we need to be happy should not be labeled extravagant. But if we try to get something we want and can't achieve it after giving it a considerable effort, then we eventually say: okay I tried and move on to something else, or move to a different environment.

Quote from Pacatus

Easy fare makes bountiful fest,

and gratitude a Garden blest.

Oh this is great for a meal prayer!

And that gets me thinking about what might I like to compose for a meal prayer.

Finally something further came to me for this thread. A work in progress, and maybe more of a meditation rather than a prayer.

Epicurean Prayer for Self-guidance

May I remember to see the future as just as important as the present. May I remember that there is just this one life and to be fully present to it. May I trust that I will find solutions to all my challenges, and skillfully take actions to create my best life.

May I remember that actions of kindness, honesty, and patience especially when faced by challenges, are most likely to lead to better results for long-term happiness.

May I remember to seek out the help of trusted friends even when I think I am doing fine on my own. May I offer help to my trusted friends as an opportunity to strengthen the connection we share.

May I actively seek to find comfort and joy in daily moments of pleasant sensations. May I enjoy all the new things that I am learning about the world. May I remember to do the most important actions to live happily. (this last line, more to be added).

Quote from camotero

Well, the motivation behind this is teaching a kid (who's not going to be raised in a religious context, but lives in a religious immediate-society, and that is expected to hear about the commandments sooner or later)

Also, you want to teach the virtues as a tool that leads to a happy life.

It will really depend on the age of the child. And also I think the main issues are about teaching not to steal or lie -- and how to teach choices and avoidances that will lead to a happy life and good relationships with people. Once a child has an understanding of others and self, then gradually increasing the complexity of the why to not steal or lie.

About stealing, there is a very good phrasing that Buddhists use in their precepts: To not take what is not given.

Also in addition to not lying, they add in to not spread gossip, and so there is the understanding that doing certain things tend to cause problems in the future (so to do them is to cause yourself trouble, in addition to the harm it causes others and the loss of trust that will result).

So the 10 commandments don't adequately teach these nuances.

But if you think of ways that people cause harm, then you get:

1) to refrain from killing or injuring

2) to refrain from lying or spreading gossip

3) to refrain from taking what is not given

Then add in both of these:

The Golden Rule: Treat others the way you would want to be treated

The Platinum Rule: Treat others as they would want you to treat them

This a very good project. Brings up Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development, and I think I posted about this before (but don't remember for sure), Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development.

Quote

Kohlberg identified three distinct levels of moral reasoning: preconventional, conventional, and postconventional. Each level has two sub-stages.

People can only pass through these levels in the order listed. Each new stage replaces the reasoning typical of the earlier stage. Not everyone achieves all the stages. The 3 levels of moral reasoning include:

Level 1 - Preconventional morality

Preconventional morality is the first stage of moral development, and lasts until approximately age 9. At the preconventional level children don’t have a personal code of morality, and instead moral decisions are shaped by the standards of adults and the consequences of following or breaking their rules.

For example, if an action leads to punishment is must be bad, and if it leads to a reward is must be good.

Authority is outside the individual and children often make moral decisions based on the physical consequences of actions.

• Stage 1. Obedience and Punishment Orientation. The child/individual is good in order to avoid being punished. If a person is punished, they must have done wrong.

• Stage 2. Individualism and Exchange. At this stage, children recognize that there is not just one right view that is handed down by the authorities. Different individuals have different viewpoints.

Level 2 - Conventional morality

Conventional morality is the second stage of moral development, and is characterized by an acceptance of social rules concerning right and wrong. At the conventional level (most adolescents and adults), we begin to internalize the moral standards of valued adult role models.

Authority is internalized but not questioned, and reasoning is based on the norms of the group to which the person belongs.

A social system that stresses the responsibilities of relationships as well as social order is seen as desirable and must, therefore, influence our view of what is right and wrong.

• Stage 3. Good Interpersonal Relationships. The child/individual is good in order to be seen as being a good person by others. Therefore, answers relate to the approval of others.

• Stage 4. Maintaining the Social Order. The child/individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society, so judgments concern obeying the rules in order to uphold the law and to avoid guilt.

Level 3 - Postconventional morality

Postconventional morality is the third stage of moral development, and is characterized by an individuals’ understanding of universal ethical principles. These are abstract and ill-defined, but might include: the preservation of life at all costs, and the importance of human dignity.

Individual judgment is based on self-chosen principles, and moral reasoning is based on individual rights and justice. According to Kohlberg this level of moral reasoning is as far as most people get.

Only 10-15% are capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for stage 5 or 6 (post-conventional morality). That is to say, most people take their moral views from those around them and only a minority think through ethical principles for themselves.

• Stage 5. Social Contract and Individual Rights. The child/individual becomes aware that while rules/laws might exist for the good of the greatest number, there are times when they will work against the interest of particular individuals.

The issues are not always clear-cut. For example, in Heinz’s dilemma, the protection of life is more important than breaking the law against stealing.

• Stage 6. Universal Principles. People at this stage have developed their own set of moral guidelines which may or may not fit the law. The principles apply to everyone.

E.g., human rights, justice, and equality. The person will be prepared to act to defend these principles even if it means going against the rest of society in the process and having to pay the consequences of disapproval and or imprisonment. Kohlberg doubted few people reached this stage.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html

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Understanding the morals of the Christian Ten Commandments would depend on the age of an individual -- a child would view the 10 Commandments with Level 1, Stage 1 and an adult would view them within Level 2 thinking.

Now I look over this and seems that Epicurean ethics would be at Level 3, Stage 5 -- so this is able to look at exceptions depending on unique circumstances.

Here is a kind of "vision board" for creative ideas about shaping the future of Epicurean philosophy. What might we want to share with others as being beneficial for people to study on a larger scale beyond this forum? --not with the goal to popularize it, but as a "study Epicurean philosophy to gain more happiness" movement for building a community of like-minded people.

I created the images for this collage using "text to image" in the Canva app (which why there is distortion on the faces, so best not to zoom in too closely).

So then looking at these pictures, what exactly are people studying and what is being taught? I think this could be a springboard to gaining clarity about what are the best aspects of Epicurean philosophy and how to go about teaching it.

Tonight at 8:30pm ET is our Wednesday night Zoom discussion, and we will be discussing this podcast, open to established members and podcast listeners. Here is our events calendar listing explaining more about it.

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1872/

Notes on second half of podcast:

33:00 -- Is it legitimate to speculate about possiblities without any existing evidence of your own to consider those possiblities to be valid. Is it legitimate to think you could spend an eternity in heaven and bliss because you can't rule it out and you've never been there before.

How do you sort which claims can be evaluated reasonably and which claims can't.

Christopher Hitchens - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and those claims which are extraordinary but have not furnished extraordinary evidence should simply be dismissed, its not worth our time.

Thomas Jefferson and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity -- an idea has to be comprehensible before we can act upon it.

Good evidence, the nature of your evidence, the 5 senses anticipations and the feelings, as opposed to circumstantial reasoning, creating hypotheticals

35:30 -- DeWitt's importance of approaching what truth is, and how you've arrived at it (summary of what was just covered)

36:25 -- Epicurus was a man of action and not just thought. It was false to believe that Epicurus was a moral invalid, a pacifist, who taught retirement from and non-engagement with the world. The truth was that he was producing a philosophy with missionary aspects and had natural gifts of being a leader, an organizer, and a campaigner.
This was explained in "Philosophy for the Millions" essay by DeWitt

37:35 -- Joshua tells about philosophers in ancient Greece -- because philosophers are interested in the workings of nature, things that are going on in the sky, behind the scenes full attention and focus is on that so that when it comes to the real world and the things that people have to do to survive in the real world to get by, the philosophers are not adequate to the task -- many stories from the ancient world make this point -- they didn't really seem to focus on things that matter to most people

39:45 -- Many of his books were titled "Against" a particular idea or person which may be why he was considered combative

It seems from the very beginning that it was set up to be a school, it was intended to be an organized presentation of a reform movement

40:25 -- Epicurus' view about self interest -- it's false to say that Epicurus was a totally egoistic hedonist ruled solely by a narrow view of his own self interest, focused on the pleasure of the moment.

It was true that this was the first world philosophy that was acceptable to both Greeks and non-Greeks, and that Epicurus taught that we should make friends whenever possible. So it is not exclusively inward facing, but it was focused on the result of living a pleasurable life which cannot be obtained successfully in most cases unless you are to some extent engaged with the world around you -- emphasis on friendship and living among people who are your friends -- He was not an isolated thinker -- self-interest must be supported by action in the real world among your friends.

42:00 -- the false accusation that Epicurus was an "isolated thinker" doesn't go into how his followers were called "pigs in his heard" by his detractors. It was said that unlike other philosophical schools, no one was seen to leave the Epicurean school to join the other schools and so they were compared to becoming eunuchs. Scathing portrayal of Epicureans as being effeminate and lacking self-awareness in the hedonistic pursuit of pleasure, as being stupid, and poor citizens.

43:55 -- Ayn Rand, Objectivism, book: The Virtue of Selfishness -- false choice between the goal of should be for your own interest as opposed to other people's interests. Epicurus would condemn the idea that your own selfishness is the goal -- ultimate goal is pleasure and cannot achieve that if you put your own interests above others -- Epicurus says sometimes you are going to die for a friend. You are going to realize there is going to be a time for putting your interests first and a time for putting other people's interests first - the goal of living pleasurably

46:00 -- he said that to hold property in common showed a lack of trust among his members so that not to be done.

Establishing more friendship, broader support for pursuing pleasure.

47:50 -- Vatican Saying 43

48:25 -- Epicurus' relevance to the development of Christianity.
False to say that Epicurus was an enemy of all religion, what was true was that he had his own views of what was a proper religion, changing the emphasis from political virtues of the state to social virtues, how best to relate to other people. Applicable everywhere.

DeWitt's view stretches Epicurus' relationship to development of Christianity - sees commonalities where most of us would not see commonalities.

False opinion was that Epicurus was just an absolute atheist, dismissed the idea of talking about divinity.

50:25 -- Rather than raising citizen solders of the state, he was attempting to do something more personal and social that have reference to politics

51:00 -- Pictures of Epicurus in their house or on rings

52:00 -- page 8 DeWitt says: "Epicureanism served in the ancient world as a preparation of Christianity helping to bridge the gap between Greek intellectualism and a religious way of life..."

For more see DeWitt's book "Saint Paul and Epicurus" looks at different passages in the New Testament to see what relationship they could have to Epicureans.
This book may appeal to those who are coming from Christianity and looking to study Epicurus for the first time.

54:25 -- Lucian - two camps opposed to the oracle, the Christians and the Epicureans, for different reasons

55:10 -- Next week: we will turn attention to ancient Athens and the period in which Epicurus developed his philosophy and do a little bit of biographical background

56:55 -- Won't fully understand about happiness and pleasure without this background overview of where Epicurus was coming from

This meeting is open to all established (and vetted) forum members. (Private message me if you have questions about joining).

Since it is nearly Thanksgiving, I was hoping we could briefly discuss gratitude from an Epicurean viewpoint. And we will also be discussing the most recent popular threads on the forum.

Here is a possible article to read (in PDF format) to jumpstart thoughts on gratitude, from the Greater Good Science Center.

GGSC-JTF_White_Paper-Gratitude-FINAL.pdf

Notes from first half of podcast:

Continuing with true opinions and false opinions -- presenting these issues so that newer readers can be aware of them and understand how they fit into the big picture

1:54 -- Epicurus' views on truth

DeWitt said that it was a true opinion that he exalted nature as the norm of truth - and that this was a revolt against Plato who considered reason the norm, reason to have a divine existence of its own.

Epicurus taught that nature ant the use of sensations, feelings, and anticipations are the standard for determining what we believe to be true.

False opinion to say that Epicurus was an empiricist in the modern sense -- he did not declare that sensation was the only source, and also be careful about the different meanings that the word "truth" can have.

3:00 -- commentary about the method by which Epicurus determined what was true vs what he thought was false.

This brings us to types of reasoning, deductive vs inductive reasoning -- DeWitt says that Epicurus taught chiefly by deduction adopting the procedures of Euclid, and parting company with both Plato and the Ionian scientists.

The false opinion was that Epicurus was a strict empiricist

3:58 -- What is inductive reasoning vs deductive reasoning

Inductive: Inference of a generalized conclusion from particular instances -- moves from observations to a generalization -- example: we see that from dogs around us that they have four legs so we deduce that all dogs have four legs (over-generalize -- there are some dogs that only have 3 legs) But we have to live with the knowledge that we have not observed every instance of dogs in the world (you've got a problem if you say I don't believe it unless I've seen it). Once you've seen a certain number then you decide based on probability percentage -- 95 percent sure it is correct. (9:00)

9:50 -- Epicurus talked about multiple causations, waiting when you don't have enough information, he would have accknowledged the limitations of inductive reasoning

10:10 -- Deductive reasoning: the deriving of a conclusion by reasoning in which the conclusion about particulars follows from general or universal premises -- moves from a theory then deduce by logic what is not directly obvious -- it depends on the truth of the premises, and so not really more powerful than induction because these premises have be developed through induction

11:00 -- an interplay of induction and deduction

Plato - knowledge of absolutes through reasoning -- to be sure of something, ideal forms -- he hide inductive reasoning through geometry

12:25 -- Epicurus -- the need to rely on the senses -- he believe that nature gave us only the senses, the feelings, and anticipations for determining the truth

Plato -- believed we had to go beyond the senses, and to some extent reject what the senses were telling us

13:15 -- the problem of universals -- qualities or relations found in two or more entities -- for example: if cup holders are considered circular, then circularity may be considered a universal property of cup holders -- human beings can talk and think about universals but philosophers disagreed if universals exist in reality beyond mere thought and speech

14:25 -- Epicurus - universals are in our thoughts only

Categorization goes on in human mind, these categories aren't generated universally - does the color yellow exist on its own separate from things that are yellow, does yellow exist in the abstract apart from the things that are yellow - Martin says "No".

16:12 -- Mammals, platypus

19:00 -- Theory - an explanation for phenomenon which has taken account for all the known facts, and unknown facts
--the ability to account and assimilate new information, adjust your theory in relation to all the evidence.

22:55 -- based on probability and the need to make decisions, does that lead you to become a total skeptic.

Epicurus was not a skeptic -- he repeats in Letter to Pythocles -- "nothing in phenomena is against it". Magnetism, not possible to have an adequate understanding at that time. But for a tornado or lightning, he would say that nothing in phenomena is against it.

25:45 -- Dogmas are open to revision.

dogmatic=axiomatic. Realist as opposed to skeptical (but doesn't answer the questions). You still have to take positions on what is real and how do you determine what is real -- consistently reporting to us from the faculties which nature gave us.

27:20 -- Martin's take is that modern science is not after the truth in the way that ancient philosophers were

28:55 -- Joshua via Indiana Jones movie - Philosophy is looking for truth and science is looking for facts (my paraphrase)

31:50 -- Philosophical conversations which science can't answer, such questions as: is there life beyond the grave, dose a supernatural god exist, questions like that are particularly provinance of philosophy and religion. If you are going to make a claim, the claim is unfalsifyable and cannot be tested.

And if you hold yourself to the standard that the only thing you are totally confident in is something which you observe for yourself, you've reached the end of your ability to reason -- we don't accept that there is any evidence from anyone who has come back from being dead and by definition understand that once were dead we don't come back from it. So in terms of being certain what happens after you die, if we take the position that we haven't experienced it for ourselves so therefore we're not sure, we've reached a dilemma in our reasoning -- Epicurus was taking the position that if you stop at that point, saying I don't know, you are always going to have doubt in your mind that will cause you to live less happily than you otherwise would.

33:15 -- Is it legitimate to speculate about things

I almost went to this Unity church this morning, but then I felt my "atheist" spirit say to me better to go worship at a "house of coffee" (a coffeehouse).

Here is what was on their website (everything is good except the Bible verse at the end).

Quote

I use divine wisdom to find my way.

When I’m pondering a perplexing question or I need to make an important choice, I reach beyond human reasoning to the limitless wisdom of divine mind, never further away than my next thought.

After clarifying my question and considering my available options, I release the situation, focusing instead on the divine presence within. I affirm: I am using divine wisdom to show me the way. In prayerful silence, peace envelops me.

As I conclude my prayer time and resume my activities, I may experience a flash of insight or a more gradual understanding. However it happens, I trust my next steps will become clear to me. Confident in my divine guidance, I move forward with calm assurance.

But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.—Matthew 6:33

Quote from Joshua

I find myself alive in the universe. I know that there is sorrow, and fear, and that life sometimes hurts—but I also know that it is wonderful, really wonderful, sometimes sublime, just to be alive here. There is beauty and delight here that will move me even at my last breath. There is knowledge and philosophy to dull my pains, and to enhance my pleasures. There is friendship, romance, love, art, and literature—all the choicest fruits of a peaceable and prosperous age, in a free and civil society. To say that I am grateful is simply to say that I appreciate it. To appreciate something, and to appreciate the gift of something, are two different things. One who appreciates wine recognizes its worth and its specialness in a deep and penetrating way.

That's what it is to appreciate life and its blessings

I really like this, and maybe will use some of this (if you don't mind Joshua) to create a kind of prayer.

Also thinking something similarly pithy with regard to "prayer" during illness -- that I remember that slight pains can be endured by adding in pleasure, and extreme pains are only short in duration. (Feeling a little under the weather and once my mind feels a little clearer will dive into this).

And also work on "prayer" addressing anxiety, fear, sadness.

Quote from Cassius

Kalosymi can you pithily condense to match Martin's formulation?

I suppose my version in post 52 is very different than Martin's formlation (too different). Also, I still need to study PD24 to get more clear on that.

Quote from camotero

Regarding my original post, the winner was this:

“We are very thankful

We are very glad

For friends we meet

And food we eat

For home and mom and dad.”

Winner because my wife and kid loved it, and we prayed it together and no supernatural beings took part.

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Thank you Mathitis Kipouros, I think this question you brought up and the result is very good (provided by Don in post 4). And this seems like a good prayer for children.

As adults, especially ones who were raised in church, it might be good to also create adult Epicurean prayers. And there are various reasons for prayer: for when there is anxiety regarding the uncertainty of the future, for when there are difficult challenges, or for when there is sadness or illness. And also there is giving thanks and gratitude, at meals, at bedtime, and when waking in the morning. And I think it would be a good thing to add here to this thread -- and I will see if I can come up with anything and post soon. And Pacatus and Joshua with your poetic abilities if you have any adult prayer ideas you can come up with, please add

Quote from Martin

Epicurean non-belief creed

First draft:

I do not have any beliefs.

I know some stuff.

I know that some of my knowledge may be wrong.

I know that there is a lot more stuff which I do not know.

I know that there is stuff of which I do not even know that I do not know of it.

This very partial knowledge does not compel me to any belief, because so far, I have acquired any knowledge needed to enable a pleasurable life, and I am confident to keep this attitude until death terminates my existence.

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Possible re-phrasing:

Epicurean Creed

Knowledge and faith in that knowledge must be backed by observation by the senses (or as augmented by trustworthy tools which can accurately take measurements).

And if someone else is making the observations we must have adequate trust that they know how to correctly make observations. The correct way to make observations is: 1) to make sure that we are not confusing our observations with any opinions about what we wish to be true and so we must have the ability to separate our observations from our opinions 2) we make sure we have gathered enough evidence before drawing a conclusion. When making conclusions: 1) we understand that correlation does not imply causation 2) we cannot put our faith in something unless we know that the observations were correct and that the conclusion drawn is sound.

I think this is worthwhile to do, and this may still need adjustment or more added.

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We’ve all been told that correlation does not imply causation. Yet many business leaders, elected officials, and media outlets still make causal claims based on misleading correlations. These claims are too often unscrutinized, amplified, and mistakenly used to guide decisions.

Examples abound: Consider a recent health study that set out to understand whether taking baths can reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. The analysis found that people who took baths regularly were less likely to have cardiovascular disease or suffer strokes. The authors conclude that the data suggests “a beneficial effect” of baths. Without a controlled experiment, or a natural experiment, one in which subjects are chosen randomly and without variable manipulation, it’s hard to know whether this relationship is causal. For example, it’s possible that regular bath takers are generally less stressed and have more free time to relax, which could be the real reason they have lower rates of heart disease. Still, these findings were widely circulated, with headlines like, “Taking a bath isn’t just relaxing. It could also be good for your heart.”

A large body of research in behavioral economics and psychology has highlighted systematic mistakes we can make when looking at data. We tend to seek evidence that confirms our preconceived notions and ignore data that might go against our hypotheses. We neglect important aspects of the way that data was generated. More broadly, it’s easy to focus on the data in front of you, even when the most important data is missing. As Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman has said, it can be as if “what you see is all there is.”

This can lead to mistakes and avoidable disasters, whether it’s an individual, a company, or a government that’s making the decision. The world is increasingly filled with data, and we are regularly bombarded with facts and figures. We must learn to analyze data and assess causal claims — a skill that is increasingly important for business and government leaders.

https://hbr.org/2021/11/leader…-with-causation

Last night we had a good discussion at our weekly Wednesday night Zoom meeting.

Onenski brought up the question of: Can you be certain about some things and what can you be dogmatic about in Epicureanism? (this is my paraphrase based on what I remember). So there are some beliefs that will not change:

--belief in eternal atoms and void

--no supernatural gods

--no life after death

--no absolute forms or way of doing things

Cassius not sure I got the wording right on the last point, and did I miss anything?

Also, the idea that you need to understand the fundamental points of the doctrine before you can go into therapeutics.