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Posts by Kalosyni
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Moving forward with The "Why" -- I'll start with my questioning beliefs regarding God -- after being raised Christian, in my teens I came to the question of why God allows suffering in innocent children -- and this caused me to doubt, and then eventually I moved on to atheism.
And I just today found this image on the internet of the "Epicurean paradox", which sums it up:
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Gathering my thoughts -- Another Outline - December 23, 2022
As an Epicurean, here is what I believe:
--That there is no God who created the Universe, or is involved in human affairs, both in this life or after death.
--That the soul only exists as a phenomenon tied to the physical body, so it ceases to exist when we die. There is no heaven or hell after death.
--That there is matter which is composed of atoms, just as in modern science. And it follows natural causes, and is subject to natural laws. So that supernatural beliefs are incorrect regarding function of matter and the universe. Matter is subject to physical causes and conditions and my thoughts cannot physically affect the outcome of things -- only direct actions affect the physical world.
--That creating and living the most enjoyable life is a worthy goal. This means that I take charge of doing what needs to be done to set up the circumstances which will bring about the most pleasant and enjoyable life according to my unique personality and feelings. Other people may require differing elements or modes of living to experience an enjoyable life, and it is up to my own self to direct my pursuit of happiness -- no one else can do it for me. And therefore how I go about doing this may differ from others.
--That using wisdom and evaluating choices and avoidances to acheive the best outcome is an important part of creating a pleasant life.
--That understanding the nature of pain, pleasure, and desire is necessary for making good choices and avoidances. And that a pleasant life and a pleasurable life are equally important.
--That it is good to have good friends who share this same worldview and who wisely consider their actions in creating a pleasant and pleasurable life. And that the sharing of pleasure in friendship is a pleasure.
The Why -- This is important if others question my beliefs or if I am needing to explain to someone what I believe (more on this in the future).
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And why do they want to do that? What is their motivation?
Fear and lack of true friendship.
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choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory
Also, the word "satisfactory" doesn't fully encompass pleasure, happiness, sweetness in life. I have to contemplate and consider that these are my goals, otherwise the value system of "appearances" (status, wealth, high fashion, etc) can distract me from living the best life given my means.
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So everyone is always choosing pleasure, in the broad sense that we always choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory.
I can't completely agree with this, since you used the word "everyone". Some people do make choices out of how they want to appear to others, so as to gain respect. And then if that is to impress those who chose according to "God's will" , then this is based on idealistic virtue not on pleasurable outcomes.
Edit note: I should have said: so as to try to gain respect or in an attempt to gain respect
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Todd, I am sensing perhaps a bit of resistence toward pleasure? And maybwe there could something deeper going on in your resistence? Possibly you may be uncertain if you can trust your inner sense of pleasure?
We subjectively know what pleasure is, just as honey is sweet. And as Epicureans, we remember that we don't always choose for immediate pleasure, but we sometimes make choices that will lead to greater pleasure in the future. This means that we at times will be using trial and error and will observe the results from our choices -- and evaluate which choices were best -- and then we learn. For example: I used to drink more beer and wine, but then as I applied "choices and avoidances" then I could see that I actually had more pleasure by abstaining or only drinking small quanties. And also this points to both pleasure and pain are considered in choices and avoidances. What we have left of Epicurus' teachings is sometimes not as clear about all of this, but over time I believe we can develop the philosophy so that it is much easier to explain and discuss.
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On the ethical side of things, from the Letter to Menoeceus, we have this about time:
"And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant."
And also for Epicurus, and Epicureans, understanding "the nature of things" was also important. We now have a much more complex creation of time, compared to the ancient Greek sundial. I came across this interesting article, about the science of atomic clocks:
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/16/113…-clocks-society---Not only the physics of time, but also the perception of time and how our consciousness experiences it.
---That old cliche: "So many books, so little time" and also the busy-ness of life and making peace with "time".
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Hi martyo26, Welcome to the forum!
In addition to the Five Pointed Star Youtube which you mentioned on your wall, here is another overview, which has excerpts from Lucretius:
Also, the podcast first episode on Letter to Menoeceus is good:
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Thank you Joshua, so then it was from Lucretius! The explanation which you gave in last night's Zoom, without the use of poetic embellishment was so direct and clear (and succinct).
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I think both of these are good introductory videos, which each have their own flavor. And I favor the "Five-pointed Star" as a very good overview, possibly good for putting into the Epicurus College.
Interesting qoutes: "Happiness is best thought of here as the consciousness of pleasure predominating over pain" -- and -- "Pleasure over time which is what we come to conclude is the best definition of happiness".
Would you define happiness differently now?
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Haris has two music videos and two presentation videos
So far I have listened to the first music video, which is sort of good, and yet when it says "When we have someone reassure us then we can live like Epicurus" then I feel a little hesitant because to me it seems that so much of the Epicurean philosophy is about using the power of your own mind to understand the true nature of things, so we don't depend on someone reassuring us.
So I would need to look into this a bit more to see what else is in his presentation of Epicureanism, before I would be fully on-board.
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During last night's Zoom meeting, it came up that Horace saw lightening during the daytime, and this was the cause of his return to believing in the gods (hope I am remembering this correctly).
Joshua, what was your story of the explanation of why lightening could not be of the gods?
Then I was thinking further that maybe Horace saw a flash from a meteorite (and so had an experience similar to the conversion of the Apostle Paul).
Possibly this was an area in natural physics which was not understood. Does Lucretius mention anything about meteorites?
And I found this interesting article:
Scientists Didn't Believe in Meteorites Until 1803The l'Aigle meteorite fall involved more than 3,000 pieces of rock and numerous witnesses, and it changed everythingwww.smithsonianmag.com -
episode of The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.
Thank you, I click on above link and looks interesting, and good to watch later (for an after-dark watching, later in the day). And this all brings up the idea that we need a thread dedicated to recommended movies, etc, etc.
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Death Wish Espresso Roast coffee
Extra dark roast? Just wondering...reminds me of a favorite ice cream flavor: Death by Chocolate
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I wanted to start this thread as we are in the midst of the holiday season, which can bring up a mix of feelings for some. And I want to encourage everyone to move toward pleasure, and to find what feels best in how you chose to move through the holidays.
Here is an excerpt from my newest blog post:
"Most importantly is an active "turning toward pleasure" and what feels good and what is enjoyable. Does the experience of the color red, used so often during the holidays, have an enlivening feeling for you? Every year in the month of December many people actively prepare to celebrate Christmas, either as a "secularized" holiday or as a Christian holiday. I'm not on board with big spending to display status or wealth or buying more stuff for the sake of consumption. Instead, I am thinking about the importance of tuning into the body and tuning into the feelings of what makes us as humans enjoy life.
As Epicureans we can choose what feels most pleasurable in this regard as we evaluate our choices and avoidances based on our internal guide of pleasure and pain. The tradition of preparing for Christmas is in a sense a kind of savoring of winter in the lead-up to the Winter Solstice, when we know that the sun will once again begin to move higher and days will begin to lengthen. Actively pursuing the "pleasures of Christmas" is a kind of antidote to the cold, cloudy, rainy or snowy weather and the short days. As Epicureans, we can chose to move through life in pursuit of pleasure year-round."
The Epicurean Art of Taking PleasureSome random musings today about pleasure, and the holiday season... As human beings we make choices based on both conscious and unconscio...epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com**********
And also, these questions, for anyone who would like to post responses:
1. How are you enjoying the holidays? (you can share about what you are doing and what you are experiencing)
2. Are you feeling a mix of emotions? (both pleasure and pain? and why might this be?)
3. And any upcoming plans for pleasurable activities?
I will go ahead and say something about myself, I would share that yesterday afternoon I had a very enjoyable experience at a coffeehouse. The sunshine was shining into the room and onto my table, and the place was decorated nicely with white strings of lights. And I felt very content as I had a chocolate chip muffin and was using the internet to read and research.
At times I do feel a mix of emotions, since there are certain areas in my life in which I do not fully have a sense of self-sufficency, as well as being a bit deficient in friendships since I moved to a new city this year.
Upcoming plans: I will be going to a birthday party next week for my great-niece, and I think it will be enjoyable. (Plus a few more events coming up also, which bring me great pleasure as I anticipate them).
-- Savor - share - plan for more --
And please share about yourself and any thoughts in response to this post
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Also, it came to me that we could have people listen to a recording beforehand -- something very introductory, and then discuss it. So maybe no short presentation during the Zoom will be needed.
Possibly this one: "A Five-Pointed Star"
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Cassius and I will host this New Member Zoom Meeting for anyone who is a Level 1. We want to provide more opportunties for learning and meeting others of like-mind. Even if you have been on the forum for a time, you are still welcome to join. This is for all Level 1 members because it will be at a more basic level of understanding than what a Level 3 member would be at.
If we get enough interest, then we will have a first meeting in January. So please post your interest here in this thread. If we get at least two people then we will go ahead to set a date and time.
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Here is a larger section from Lucretius from which I took the excerpt (which I placed in the above graphic):
Humphries:
Direct your mind
To a true system. Here is something new
For ear and eye. Nothing is ever so easy
But what, at first, it is difficult to trust.
Nothing is great and marvelous, but what
All men, a little at a time, begin
To mitigate their sense of awe. Look up,
Look up at the pure bright color of the sky,
The wheeling stars, the moon, the shining sun!
If all these, all of a sudden, should arise
For the first time before our mortal sight,
What could be called more wonderful, more beyond
The heights to which aspiring mind might dare?
Nothing, I think. And yet, a sight like this,
Marvelous as it is, now draws no man
To lift his gaze to heaven's bright areas.
We are a jaded lot. But even so
Don't be too shocked by something new, too scared
To use your reasoning sense, to weigh and balance,
So that if in the end a thing seems true,
You welcome it with open arms; if false,
You do your very best to strike it down.
The sum of space is infinite, reaching far
Beyond the ramparts of the world; the mind
Persists in questioning: what can be there?
What is there so far off, toward which the urge
Of the free spirit flies?
