Posts by Kalosyni

In another thread the idea of "finding meaning" came up, and it reminded me about this much more useful model, which I think is much more effective for coping -- it is called the "BASIC-ph Model of Coping" created by Mooli Lahad.

It incorporates 6 aspects for good coping...and one of them is physical pleasure (under the label "Physiological").

Here is a diagram I drew:

Here is a website that has brief explanation (but it's not the site from which I created the above diagram).

Quote from Pacatus

Third, when such down-to-earth ideas of “meaning” are seriously considered, the notion that Epicurean philosophy offers no means to (or opportunity for) personal meaning itself seems absurd.

Further thoughts coming up in regard to "meaning". Most concerning to me in the call to "search for meaning" is the implication that happiness is not possible so that the best one can do is have a "meaningful life". This is so divorced from pleasure, especially normal animal pleasures, and shows how there is a mistaken and unnecessary distrust of pleasure. Also, missing is that we have basic human needs for social interaction and for friendship, which we need for living a happy life.

It appears to me that Frankl's advice was born out of an extreme worst case scenario which required extreme coping mechanisms - a scenario that most people thankfully will never need to encounter. We are living ordinary and secure lives which are much much different. I see the "search for meaning" as an attempt to deal with severe mental anguish, but I think it is going about the problem in the wrong way.

Ultimately if we follow that which brings both short-term and long-term pleasure, we will naturally arive at a "meaningful" life - one in which we do not have to prove that we are good or smart or talented in order to try to get approval from others. So Epicureans have a much different understanding of the word "meaningful".

We also can avoid falling into the trap that something isn't truely "meaningful" unless others also see it as "meaningful" (a "meaningful" life for some could just be one step away from a "virtuous" life, for example according to the common idea that serving others is a pathway to a meaningful life.)

BrainToBeing

The "search for meaning" is put upon a pedestal such that the word "meaning" becomes an empty abstraction, as empty as the word "virtue". It means nothing except in reference to something else, and everything always comes back to pleasure and pain, because those are what nature gives us by which to decide what to choose and what to avoid. The Epicurean goal of finding and pursuing pleasure (both physical and mental) seeks for joy and happiness in life. If "meaning" doesn't provide joy and happiness then it is worthless.

It seems that you are coming from a mindset that makes it difficult for you to think about the benefits of Epicurean philosophy, because it appears you don't agree with some basic concepts of Epicurean philosophy - especially with regard to the Epicurean criticism of "virtue". You can read more about it here:

Cicero's "Torquatus" Presentation of Epicurean Ethics - from "On Ends" - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Here is tonight's agenda:

VS59. It is not the stomach that is insatiable, as is generally said, but the false opinion that the stomach needs an unlimited amount to fill it.

VS60. Every man passes out of life as though he had just been born.

- Level 03 members: for those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.

- Level 01 members can attend by pre-approval - message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

thatchickinpa Welcome to the forum!

You might enjoy this YouTube video, by Cassius, on the "Major Aspects of Epicurean Philsophy":

Quote from BrainToBeing

... since the classical authors referenced here lived 2000+ years ago, has anything changed? What, if anything, is new in the philosophy of life (contrasted to these classical perspectives)?

We leave it for each individual to clearly see that modern science has greatly developed beyond what was known in the time of Epicurus.

As for the existential issues, these still apply today...the fear of death, unnecessarily becoming anxious regarding mortality or entertaining ideas about an after-life, god, etc, etc...what Epicurus had to say still has relevance.

The goal for this EpicureanFriends forum is to study the extant texts and to apply the philosophy as presented by Epicurus. A student of Epicurus takes the aspects of the philosophy which resonate and tests it, and applies it to their own lives.

So this forum is a place for focusing solely on what Epicurus taught.

I wonder, perhaps you aren't feel the resonance . I'm not out to convert or convince anyone . Of course anyone is welcome to study other philosophies, and one can find elsewhere many other places on the internet for other philosophies.

The current limitation of this Epicurean forum right now is that there is a lot of information which is not presented in a very "linear" manner. The threads are not straightforward, and require a lot reading. Each person will need to dive in for themselves, and also need to study the extant texts in order to make sense of it all. We also recommend a book by Norman De Witt "Epicurus and His Philosophy".

I urge you and wish you well, to pursue what personally works best for you.

Join us for our continued discussion on the Vatican Sayings - tonight is VS 56, 57, & 58.

Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).

Tonight's Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Current matters to address
3. Current forum threads of interest / latest podcast
4. Discussion on VS 56, 57, and 58:

VS56. The wise man feels no more pain, when being tortured himself than when his friend is tortured.

VS57. On occasion a man will die for his friend, for if he betrays his friend, his whole life will be confounded by distrust and completely upset.

VS58. We must free ourselves from the prison of public education and politics.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members - those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.
• Level 01 members - message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Thank you to everyone who attended last night's meeting. We had a total of 9 people attend.

Our brief topic of discussion was: Would Epicurus be in favor of New Year's resolutions? (And people were welcome to add any personal thoughts on setting New Year's resolutions).

Here are some discussion comments from several participants (paraphrased):

• Would not want to guess what Epicurus thought, but he would likely be in favor.
• It works best to think of a resolution as an intention, so setting an intention.
• Being against the idea of "binge and purge".
• Importance of taking "baby steps" when setting a goal or resolution.
• No need to limit setting a resolution to only the start of the year - it can be done all year long.

Here are the slides I included at the start of the discussion:

Hi Raphael Raul thank your for your introduction here and in your Welcome Thread

You have now been added to the Zoom link conversation, and looking forward to meeting you tonight!

Happy New Year 2024 and a Happy First Day of the Gregorian Calendar year!

May you be well and may you be safe, and may you live in the fullness of pleasure!

Cassius I'd like to request that we add back in "Posts" on each person's profile page, which appeared before but is now missing (I used this a lot to navigate to something I had posted within the last few days/week).

Regarding polls...it's a learning experience still for me...I should have included an option for multiple ways of accessing the forum (also I wanted to find out if my hunch was true, that most people use cellphones).

The forum appearance and experience is different when using cellphone compared to tablet or laptop. I think it is much better now for cellphone since the upgrade, because the various tool icons are more visable and user friendly.

Depending on the type of device used, perhaps we still need to compare and contrast between multiple device types to determine if something is missing or could be improved.

Quote from Godfrey

When we make choices using whatever degree of free will that's available to us, the effects of those choices form "ripples" in the deterministic fabric. These ripples then determine subsequent events up to the point at which free will occurs in those events. And so on, ad infinitum. ...

...

....Other than a sense of agency v nihilism, what are the practical implications of this debate?

In the 3rd video (by the School of Life) that Don posted above in post 36, it brings up "Defeatism vs. Aspiration". (I did not like that Stoic story about human beings being like "dogs tied to an unpredicatable cart" because it doesn't illuminate anything about how we actually navigate or problem solve).

Thinking further, our competence and skill in life comes about through our belief in our ability to affect things, change things, learn things, and problem solve -- these all require a strong feeling of agency (or "free will").

There is a 12-step AA Serenity Prayer: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

For our own Epicurean purposes this could be rephrased:

May I know and put skillful effort into what I need do. May I make peace with that which is beyond my sphere of influence. And may I have the wisdom to discern the difference between what I can and cannot change.

(This could be said many different ways).

tariq Welcome to the forum!

Just out of curiousity:

Kalosyni created a new event:

Event

This Meeting is on Hold - First Monday - Via Zoom 8pm ET

*** This Monthly Meeting is Currently Canceled ***

*** Fourth Sunday is now open for registered members as our "New Member Meet-and-Greet"***

Join us every first Monday of the month for our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour - Via Zoom - at 8pm ET.

This is an informal Epicurean philosophy discussion. We'll start with a meet-and-greet, and then open it up for discussion. On some months we may also give a short presentation on Epicurean philosophy or a have a special discussion topic which…

Mon, Jan 1st 2024, 8:00 pm – 9:00 pm

Kalosyni

December 29, 2023 at 3:33 PM

Quote

*** This Monthly Meeting is Currently Canceled ***

*** Fourth Sunday is now open for registered members as our "New Member Meet-and-Greet"***

Join us every first Monday of the month for our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour - Via Zoom - at 8pm ET.

This is an informal Epicurean philosophy discussion. We'll start with a meet-and-greet, and then open it up for discussion. On some months we may also give a short presentation on Epicurean philosophy or a have a special discussion topic which focuses on the application of Epicureanism to everyday life.

This monthly gathering is a great way to meet others who are studying the philosophy, and provides an opportunity to bring up questions.

If you are a new member, please be sure that you have already introduced yourself over in your personal Welcome Thread (tell us a little about your background or area of interest within Epicureanism, your level of study, or any previous philosophy studies).

If you are interesting in attending, please let us know over in the event thread First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour.

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Cassius, I think the upgrade is quite spectacular!!! It may take a little time to get used to the new changes, but the interface looks much more modern now.

The posts lost yesterday may have been by the following members:

Onenski  Don  Godfrey  BrainToBeing  Pacatus  Martin

(and also myself and Cassius)

So it seems right now (today 12-19-23) if anyone posts that it could be lost if the system crashes again? I just posted something ... I can copy (save on my system) what I posted just in case. Probably best to refrain from posting like Cassius requested in the orange boxed notification (which I didn't see till after posting).

Quote from Onenski

Skepticism about free will, I think, is a personal position of mine, and it is perhaps the one that makes me wonder things like: if the study of nature pointed out that we do not have free will, would Epicurus accept it?

Can I assume that if I were to say: "There is no such thing as free will" that this means that I am not actually choosing anything and that everything always is predetermined by forces outside of my conscious mind? Such that we are saying that what appears to be free will is just an illusion? Or can we say "free will" = an individual's ability to choose.

Quote from Cassius

In the case of free will, Epicurus is being very clear that some things are determined while others are not. Both are affirmed to be true.

Here is an example: I drink a large cup of tea. I then need to go pee. There is something in my mind which is registering pleasure and pain sensations throughout my body, and it is also balanced by my awareness of mental thoughts. Perhaps I am sitting with friends and I want to hear someone finish a story so I sit and wait till the end, and then excuse myself. But maybe I am fed up with hearing a story, so I leave before the end. There are millions of insignificant events that can't possibly be predetermined. As we become more aware of how to skillfully deal with pleasure and pain, it actually increases our ability to freely choose.

I have more thoughts on this but perhaps I will add more later