Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

Everybody understands that the pleasure of ice cream is different from listening to music, but they don't understand that pleasure includes both "exciting" pleasures and "all normal non-painful experiences of life."

The pleasure that comes from ice cream is different because the part of the body involved, and perhaps the jolt of sugar has a greater intensity...but perhaps doesn't last as long as the pleasure of music (enjoyable to the ears and perhaps tied to happy memories). Yet, another thing to think about is that the underlying "state of being pleased" is actually the same for both of these, therefore you could substitute one for the other (if necessary).

Quote from Pacatus

… in Classical Era Athens, the purchase of all fish by a wealthy citizen was considered an undemocratic act since he left nothing for the rest of the people.” https://greekreporter.com/2022/08/04/anc…rence-for-fish/ cited by Kalosyni in post #43 above.

I somehow didn't see that in that article, and it is a little bit confusing because that same article says this:

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As for processed fish, such as preserved tuna and anchovies, they were widely consumed by all social classes and were the product of a very flourishing trade throughout the Mediterranean and the adjacent seas.

Quote from Cassius

One additional point on this from the letter to Menoeceus: "And therefore a right understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not because it adds to it an infinite span of time, but because it takes away the craving for immortality."

Maybe...when we come to label things as either pleasure or pain, and that absense of pain is a pleasure, then it takes away the craving for unlimited pleasurable stimulation?

Some questions:

Is there ever any benefit to deciding to label something as being "neither pleasure nor pain"? Does the experience of "neither pleasure nor pain" happen spontaneously or do we decide to label it that way after the fact?

Also, 100% pain is very rare but might occur while physically experiencing something catastrophic (a car accident or being hit by a bomb).

How much of our experience (and how much of the time) is there an equal mix of both pain and pleasure? (A1 + B2) or (A2 + B1) ...and might there be times when these are considered "neither pleasure nor pain" since they cancel each other out?

How often is the sum of our experience just what we decide to tell ourselves (or label things as being either "good" or "bad")?

This article brings up some interesting ideas in modern psychology, which may be helpful for thinking about "two feelings: pleasure and pain". The article talks about nuetral affect (a long article and haven't read it all yet).

seqstrat welcome to the forum - a section you might like is the FAQ section:

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

This article may be of benefit in understanding the nature of pleasure within Epicurean philosophy, and here is the abstract:

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Abstract:

This chapter’s main aim is to bring into focus Lucretius’ celebration of his own Epicurean pleasures. The DRN refers in its very first line to divine as well as human pleasures. It closes with the most frightful scene of bodily and mental pain, one that owing to the poem’s evident incompletion still lacks its Epicurean moral lesson about why even the most intense bodily pain need not be feared. In between those two extremities Lucretius offers a uniquely sensitive, and rarely appreciated, commentary on the meaning, boundaries and divine nature of true Epicurean pleasures, and on their intimate relationship to the study of physics, by one who can claim direct experience of their transformative effects.

Lucretian Pleasures

Lucretian Pleasures

www.academia.edu

Quote from Don

I will admit I started to use it with more frequency over the last few years... Can't think of a reason why

Perhaps you are meeting more interesting people these days!

As for myself I seem to say "Nice to meet you".

Quote from Don

Quote from Kalosyni

For example, in France they might say "It's a pleasure to meet you" - but in the USA we would never say that.

LOL. I say that all the time.

Perhaps you are French? lol (So then I guess I am incorrect in my understanding regarding the frequency of this usage).

Also we tend to think in chunks of time, perhaps according to seasons (summertime, holiday time or "over the past year", etc.) or based on when significant events happened (moving to a new city, getting married, or birth of a child, etc).

Then given this reference to what ever chunk of time we are reflecting on, we then might have a quick sense of whether things have been going well or not. And then the cognition of either one of the following: -- a mix of ups and downs -- or feeling a bit unhappy -- or feeling generally happy -- or things have been going very well.

I would say that as Epicureans our goal would be to think (and be able to honestly say) that things have been going very well -- and that this would be a pleasant life (and a happy life). And likely we re-evaluate according to new chunks of time, as time moves forward.

I am thinking about how we define things and how it affects cognition. Also, definitions are dependent upon the given situation (context) and must be tied down to practical matters. And what is the purpose of defining things and gaining clarity of the way things are unless it all can be placed into a system for living a good life (and has some therapeutic benefit)?

The word "pleasure" can be a catch-all word but there is too much ambiguity in it.

We generally (at first glance) think that the word "pleasure" is describing something sensual - food, drink, beautiful sights, smells, and touch (a warm bath, back massages, or sex).

There is also a category of "the joys of life" - and many people would consider such moments as the birth of their children, or gatherings/celebrations (or reunions) with family and friends, as being in this category.

Then there are "the simple joys of life" - rituals of going for a morning walk, reading a book, playing with one's children or pets, etc.

And there are "enjoyments" - which are mental pleasures (instead of saying "mental pleasure" we can say "enjoyments") and it is when we consider that something was more enjoyable than painful that we say: "I enjoyed _________(xyz)."

If we think of a life that has more pleasures than pains (physical) and more enjoyments then agitations (mental), we would likely define it as a pleasant life - and that is what we are aiming for. And we could say that a pleasant life is a "happy" life. (Happy and happiness also need more words to define them in whatever context they arise in).

I wanted to quickly drop in to this thread to say that this episode has brought up some questions for me - regaring the use of the word "pleasure" in every-day speech.

I personally feel that I want to start using more words, and different words, which are more accurate for each and every given situation.

The word pleasure can encompass so much, however in my mind and perhaps others who speak English, the word pleasure is used to apply to sensations that have a certain intensity and stimulate the senses. (Perhaps other languages/nationalities have a different understanding than American/British people. For example, in France they might say "It's a pleasure to meet you" - but in the USA we would never say that.)

So then more accurately we would say that the goal of Epicureans is to seek out pleasing experiences, pleasantness, and also pleasures (sensations) - what is agreeable, pleasant, and pleasurable. When is comes to mental pleasure we say "enjoyable" or "pleasant".

This has a good overview and emphasizes that it takes pre-planning, and it also depends on which state you live in.

Alternative Options to Hasten Death | Death With Dignity

Whether or not your state has a death with dignity statute, you have a number of options available to hasten your death. These options are legal in every

deathwithdignity.org

Thank you Don for pulling out all those references to Philodemus! We can all benefit from considering these helpful ideas.

And also, Elli hope you can take a look at this topic and the above two posts, when you get a chance, as this may be of interest to you

Quote from Don

It strikes me that the Garden provided an environment where the student genuinely wanted to follow the path of Epicurus, and the teacher genuinely wanted to help the student. Some students may have been more amenable to this correction than others, but that didn't stop the teacher from administering the medicine.

Even if at times there was frank speech between two students, I can imagine that it was based on the teachings (it wouldn't be random). It seems that between students the frank speech would have been cited/referenced to specific teachings which were found in Epicurus' books.

Some questions to consider (and if anyone wants to reply):

At what point does frank speech come across as rude, harsh, or insensitive? Is the phrase "frank speech" ever used to justify harsh speech? What is harsh speech and when should we avoid it? And, what kinds of word choices appear to have a domineering, shaming, or power-over (controlling) attitude? When is frank speech just an expression of anger and a kind of punishment?

Rocco and Lowri834 youv'e been added to the private conversation thread with tonight's zoom link, so check your messages

You should be able to copy a website address and paste it into the body of the post.

Wishing you a Happy Birthday Cassius!

Quote from Peter Konstans

To what extent can the views and advice of brilliant therapists or educators like John Gottman, Gigi Engle or Dan Buettner be thought of as Epicurean and admitted in some form in the 'scriptures' and literature of Epicureanism?

The writings of Epicurus can be seen as guides to wisdom, and much of what he wrote was lost. We read and study the extant remains as helpful hints for how to live a joyous life. Since here on this forum we are not eclectic, then John Gottman and others would not be added to scriptures.

Epicurus presents a theory of living, and then it is up to each person to bring that theory into practical life. There is a small section on this forum for Epicurean lifestyle questions, and it moves beyond theory with the intention to ground it in the frame work of the Epicurean world-view.

Modern knowledge and psychology has uncovered new ways to understand the world and life that is much more advanced as compared to when Epicurus was alive. I see modern psychology as fitting into the Epicurean world-view when they meet the criteria of the philosophy of Epicurus - how to make good choices, how to understand death, and the place of pleasure and pain in life, etc. If modern psychology leads to pleasure and the happiness of the soul, as a subjective experience for each individual, then each individual can choose to apply that for themselves. The theory of Epicurus remains as the frame or backbone.

Because Epicureanism is an open system of thinking, it is difficult for me to see it as a "religion". Religion often seems to require stiff and absolute thinking or the use of attitudes such as "must", "should", and "have to" which is not the best way to live. So for myself the word "philosophy" works best.

Quote from Peter Konstans

Hi Kalosyni Yes I see myself as an Epicurean. Your username is modern Greek for goodness. Since you use modern Greek I suspect you're Greek, right? Same here. Greetings from Laconia

Thank you, no I'm not Greek, but I admire aspects of Greek culture (both modern and ancient). Born in the USA and now living in South Carolina USA. I chose my forum name because I wanted to reflect on how kindness is a joy that leads to pleasure (it appeared to me that it meant "kindness", but I don't speak Greek so I was relying on the internet for the word meaning).