Brief presentation on Epicurus and Lucretius -- Introduction to Philosophy, at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts by Kalosyni
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Welcome @Lori
Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
- "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
- The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
- "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
- "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
- The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
- Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
- Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
- The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
- A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
- Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
- Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
- "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
Welcome to the forum!
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I'm thinking that we need a thread for encouragement as well as outreach (possible facebook posts). This could be ideas for flyers or brief summaries. Also anything of an Epicurean "therapeutic" nature.
Here is a graphic I made today:
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Wishing everyone a Happy New Year filled with hedone and eudaimonia!
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Since I've only focused on sensations in the chart I'm going to restrain myself to one thing right now--which is that I question whether error really does enter in that late in the process. I think there are numerous visual tests that demonstrate that the brain starts lying pretty much immediately upon receiving input. The retinal blind spot test is a good example. Rather than reporting two gaps in the visual field,
I see you've talked about observing a round tower vs a square tower at a distance. Now what about the sensations of pain or pleasure? These come in through ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and skin -- and these sense faculties always tell the truth regarding pain or pleasure.
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The podcasting team had a good conversation during the last recording session but given the importance of the subject we decided to postpone the recording of the first program on Chapter Seven till our next recording session. We expect to be back on a normal schedule next week.
The good topic of conversation which occurred was on the importance of friendship, while we waited for a podcast member to join. There were some good ideas brought up for future exploration. The postponement was due to a technological glitch -- an alarm clock malfunction -- so our window of time was too short to dive into the anticipated DeWitt material.
Off the top of your head Cassius, can you remember what we discussed regarding friendship?
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Welcome to the forum!
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Moving forward with The "Why" -- I'll start with my questioning beliefs regarding God -- after being raised Christian, in my teens I came to the question of why God allows suffering in innocent children -- and this caused me to doubt, and then eventually I moved on to atheism.
And I just today found this image on the internet of the "Epicurean paradox", which sums it up:
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Gathering my thoughts -- Another Outline - December 23, 2022
As an Epicurean, here is what I believe:
--That there is no God who created the Universe, or is involved in human affairs, both in this life or after death.
--That the soul only exists as a phenomenon tied to the physical body, so it ceases to exist when we die. There is no heaven or hell after death.
--That there is matter which is composed of atoms, just as in modern science. And it follows natural causes, and is subject to natural laws. So that supernatural beliefs are incorrect regarding function of matter and the universe. Matter is subject to physical causes and conditions and my thoughts cannot physically affect the outcome of things -- only direct actions affect the physical world.
--That creating and living the most enjoyable life is a worthy goal. This means that I take charge of doing what needs to be done to set up the circumstances which will bring about the most pleasant and enjoyable life according to my unique personality and feelings. Other people may require differing elements or modes of living to experience an enjoyable life, and it is up to my own self to direct my pursuit of happiness -- no one else can do it for me. And therefore how I go about doing this may differ from others.
--That using wisdom and evaluating choices and avoidances to acheive the best outcome is an important part of creating a pleasant life.
--That understanding the nature of pain, pleasure, and desire is necessary for making good choices and avoidances. And that a pleasant life and a pleasurable life are equally important.
--That it is good to have good friends who share this same worldview and who wisely consider their actions in creating a pleasant and pleasurable life. And that the sharing of pleasure in friendship is a pleasure.
The Why -- This is important if others question my beliefs or if I am needing to explain to someone what I believe (more on this in the future).
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And why do they want to do that? What is their motivation?
Fear and lack of true friendship.
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choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory
Also, the word "satisfactory" doesn't fully encompass pleasure, happiness, sweetness in life. I have to contemplate and consider that these are my goals, otherwise the value system of "appearances" (status, wealth, high fashion, etc) can distract me from living the best life given my means.
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So everyone is always choosing pleasure, in the broad sense that we always choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory.
I can't completely agree with this, since you used the word "everyone". Some people do make choices out of how they want to appear to others, so as to gain respect. And then if that is to impress those who chose according to "God's will" , then this is based on idealistic virtue not on pleasurable outcomes.
Edit note: I should have said: so as to try to gain respect or in an attempt to gain respect
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Todd, I am sensing perhaps a bit of resistence toward pleasure? And maybwe there could something deeper going on in your resistence? Possibly you may be uncertain if you can trust your inner sense of pleasure?
We subjectively know what pleasure is, just as honey is sweet. And as Epicureans, we remember that we don't always choose for immediate pleasure, but we sometimes make choices that will lead to greater pleasure in the future. This means that we at times will be using trial and error and will observe the results from our choices -- and evaluate which choices were best -- and then we learn. For example: I used to drink more beer and wine, but then as I applied "choices and avoidances" then I could see that I actually had more pleasure by abstaining or only drinking small quanties. And also this points to both pleasure and pain are considered in choices and avoidances. What we have left of Epicurus' teachings is sometimes not as clear about all of this, but over time I believe we can develop the philosophy so that it is much easier to explain and discuss.
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On the ethical side of things, from the Letter to Menoeceus, we have this about time:
"And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant."
And also for Epicurus, and Epicureans, understanding "the nature of things" was also important. We now have a much more complex creation of time, compared to the ancient Greek sundial. I came across this interesting article, about the science of atomic clocks:
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/16/113…-clocks-society---Not only the physics of time, but also the perception of time and how our consciousness experiences it.
---That old cliche: "So many books, so little time" and also the busy-ness of life and making peace with "time".
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Hi martyo26, Welcome to the forum!
In addition to the Five Pointed Star Youtube which you mentioned on your wall, here is another overview, which has excerpts from Lucretius:
Also, the podcast first episode on Letter to Menoeceus is good:
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Thank you Joshua, so then it was from Lucretius! The explanation which you gave in last night's Zoom, without the use of poetic embellishment was so direct and clear (and succinct).
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I think both of these are good introductory videos, which each have their own flavor. And I favor the "Five-pointed Star" as a very good overview, possibly good for putting into the Epicurus College.
Interesting qoutes: "Happiness is best thought of here as the consciousness of pleasure predominating over pain" -- and -- "Pleasure over time which is what we come to conclude is the best definition of happiness".
Would you define happiness differently now?
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Haris has two music videos and two presentation videos
So far I have listened to the first music video, which is sort of good, and yet when it says "When we have someone reassure us then we can live like Epicurus" then I feel a little hesitant because to me it seems that so much of the Epicurean philosophy is about using the power of your own mind to understand the true nature of things, so we don't depend on someone reassuring us.
So I would need to look into this a bit more to see what else is in his presentation of Epicureanism, before I would be fully on-board.
