Posts by Kalosyni

I typed in a question on the limits of desires into ChatGPT, and here is the result:

Quote

My Question:

Explain reasons why there are limits to desire in all areas in life. Describe what might limit desire. Explain what causes desire to arise and what causes desire to disappear.

ChatGPt Answer:

Desire can be defined as a strong feeling of wanting or wishing for something. While desires can provide us with motivation and drive, there are limits to desire in all areas of life. Here are some reasons why:

1. Limited resources: Our desires may be limitless, but the resources we have to fulfill them are not. Whether it is time, money, or other resources, we are limited in what we can achieve.
2. Physical limitations: Our bodies have limitations as well. We may desire to achieve a certain level of physical fitness or perform certain activities, but our bodies may not be capable of doing so.
3. Social norms and expectations: Society places limits on what we can desire and achieve. Certain desires may be frowned upon or even prohibited by social norms and expectations.
4. Personal values and beliefs: Our own values and beliefs can also limit our desires. We may not desire things that go against our moral or ethical code.
5. Emotional and psychological factors: Our emotional and psychological state can also limit our desires. Depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues can affect our ability to desire and achieve certain things.

Desire arises when we feel a sense of lack or deficiency. We may desire something that we perceive will fill that void or improve our situation. Desire can be triggered by external factors such as advertisements, peer pressure, or social media, or internal factors such as personal goals and aspirations.

Desire can disappear when we either achieve what we desire or when we realize that the desired object or outcome is not as fulfilling as we thought it would be. We may also lose interest in a desire if it becomes too difficult or requires too much effort to achieve. Additionally, our desires may change over time as we grow and evolve as individuals.

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Do you think this enhances the understanding of PD10 and is in alignment with Epicurus' teachings?

Day to be determined, sometime in March or April -- This is open to all forum members. We will set a date after getting feedback from members interested in attending. Please post here if you are interested, thanks!

Wanted to give out an FYI -- Work is currently in progress in reorganizing the forum, so if you notice files moving around don't panic. Just post here if you have any questions or difficulty in finding something. I am also in process of filing threads from "General Discussion", so that they will be in their appropriate categories.

And feel free to let me know if you have any input or suggestions in regard to forum categories.

Thanks!

@Agrios, Welcome to the forum!

We are in process of updating some graphics, and this somehow wasn't showing in your original welcome thread (but I added this in again).

It has always puzzled me as to why the Garden of Epicurus was refered to as "Kepos" -- and perhaps there was something in the minds of people at his time which we don't fully grasp.

Looking at Greek mythology there is the garden of Hera, also called Garden of the Hesperides.

From the internet: "The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single apple tree or a grove grows, producing golden apples." (Wikipedia)

...and...

"The Golden Apples in the Garden of Hesperides were a wedding gift to Hera from Gaia and were protected by a great serpent called Ladon. The Apples as well as the rest of the life in the Garden were tended by the Hesperides, minor earth goddesses or nymphs and daughters of the Titan, Atlas."

"The Garden itself was completely ruled by the Olympian gods and goddesses, therefore completely inaccessible to mortals. To complete his twelve labors, Hercules was sent to the garden to retrieve three of these golden apples for King Eurystheus."

"To find the exact location of the Garden of Hesperides, Hercules had to pry the information from Nereus, the Old Man of the Sea, encounter and free Prometheus, kill Ladon, and implore Atlas to pick the apples for him. Eager to sit aside his burden of holding up the heavens, Atlas convinced Hercules to take up the heavens in his place before deciding to take the apples to Eurystheus himself and leave Hercules there. Hercules tricked him by claiming he needed to make a pad for his shoulders to hold the heavens up more comfortably, asking Atlas to take them up again for a moment. When Atlas held the heavens again, Hercules snatched the apples from him and left. After this long adventure to get the apples, Athena rather anticlimactically took the Apples from Eurystheus and returned them to the Garden."

(Source)

So thinking further on how this mythical garden was thought to be inaccessable to mortals, in contrast we have "Kepos" and this could give some indication as to the nature of the Epicurean garden -- and the Epicurean hope that mortals could live as blissfully as the gods.

Also I looked up on cultivation of apples, and found this, which says they were cultivated in ancient Greece (source).

So perhaps there was an apple tree in the Kepos

Quote from Silverwater

Today, it serves as a reminder of what I thought success and happiness were.....and I think it looks kind of cool

Okay thanks, so that "running guy" is putting out fires, and not on fire himself.

You mentioned Emily Austin's book, so guessing maybe you have already listened to the interview on the Lucretius Today podcast? Part 1and Part 2

Silverwater, Welcome to the forum!

I notice you added an interesting avatar to your profile. If you don't mind, I would be curious to hear about any symbolism or meaning behind it?

mwilliams, Welcome to the forum!

Hi Everyone,

Tomorrow is our special Epicurean philosophy meet and greet and open discussion Zoom, for the European time zone. All members are invited to attend this one. If you haven't already done so, RSVP here and I will get the Zoom link to you

Saturday at 2pm US eastern time.

I just found this very interesting article, which may be kind of out there because it questions the validity of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM).

For anyone who is interested in an alternative understanding, this very good article made a lot of sense to me.

Thank you Eikadistes for sharing. Many people who have deeper or longer depression will need the help of a therapist or psychiatrist.

And also there is important benefits for everyone, in finding supportive community and friends. Eventually I hope to have a handbook for people to start their own meetings in their own cities, as a way for people to find like-minded friends. Because friendship can be so healing.

This is a very good (and long) article which covers the ever evolving science and research going into understanding depression -- and also a possible role of inflammation in depression, which can come through an number of causes, including viral (such as Covid-19 inflammation).

Quote

Depression has often been blamed on low levels of serotonin in the brain. That answer is insufficient, but alternatives are coming into view and changing our understanding of the disease

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-cause-of-depression-is-probably-not-what-you-think-20230126/

Thanks Pacatus, after reading your story, I added in something about feeling "different" to the table

Here is a list of possible worries with possible practical solutions and Epicurean philosophy contemplations. Epicurean philosophy may not have direct answers to all of these worries, but understanding the nature of the world and the cosmos as being material (and not supernatural) will lead to a very practical and matter-of-fact way of dealing with life's problem. I will update this with a few more references to the philosophy soon. Do you see any "worries" that are missing?

Quote from Don

If I see a tornado in the distance, having anxiety about it doesn't help me or anyone around me.

Here is an actual problem: I have a type of mole that I should go in to a dermatologist to make sure it isn't cancer. But I wonder why I keep procrastinating. I ought be more worried. So here is an example of how there can be healthy anxiety/worry. This discussion makes me realize that I need to stop telling myself there is nothing to worry about. I am going make an appointment this week.

Quote from Little Rocker

Which brings me to the question about anxiety in the Epicurean life. That's not an issue we can settle, though we benefit from continuing to discuss it, but I tend to split the difference between Don and Cassius.

Yes, I was thinking that "split the difference between Don and Cassius" also. And then we will need to ask ourselves "Is this a healthy worry or an unhealthy worry?" and also "should I be worrying more than I am?"

Quote from waterholic

Case in point is friendship, which plays a central role in the Epicurean philosophy as one of the main ways of achieving tranquility through safety.

@waterholic, it sounds like perhaps you see tranquility as an important goal within Epicureanism? Here on the forum some of us find that to be a good goal, where as others of us insist on seeing a broader understanding of pleasure -- or as I personally like to think of it -- "a sweet life" is the goal. (So we are often having to clarify and redefine things, and perhaps things can get confusing).

There are several places within Epicurean philosophy in which it appears that tranquility is the goal (such as in the Letter to Meneoceus). However, in this forum we attempt to examine the big picture and when we do so then we are able to interpret the Epicurean goal as simply "pleasure" -- and this pleasure also includes some tranquility. So instead of tranquility being an end, it is a tool for pleasure. ( Cassius maybe we need to set up a chart to explain this better?).

I could say more about whether or not "tranquility" was possible in Epicurus' time (since there was often the looming threat of brutal war and political strife). And now in our own time there are many things which can get keep us up at night worrying about the future. And I believe there are ways to deal with all of this.

For our current times, I would say also that friendship provides a kind of sweetness in life (and perhaps less security) -- so friendship is a tool for pleasure, which begins in mutual benefit, but over time evolves into mutual appreciation and enjoyment of getting to see, know, and experience another human being. It is true that in our times friendships can be somewhat transitory. When I moved from the West Coast to the Southeast of the US, the friendships that I had there are now altered forever (though I still keep in touch with a few, it is a very distant feeling of connection).

I believe that one needs to "keep the faith" so to speak -- keep the faith in friendships, and that friendship is possible.

I envision Epicurean philosophy becoming a helpful tool for building community and friendship. We still have lots to do to prepare the teaching materials before we can create a program in which to introduce people to the philosophy. The materials also need to include how to create and build communities. These communities would be more like "churches" or a club/society.

In the meantime you might like to check out this thread here which has some practical tips on friendship:

Thread

Cultivation of Friendship within Epicureanism

Principle Doctrine 27:

27.	Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

Principle Doctrine 27 is very important for a happy life. Modern life is busy with work and family, and yet we all still need friends. So it is very important to take the time and put the effort into making friends and maintaining friendships. Some people might be satisfied with the number and kind of friendships in their lives, but others…

Kalosyni

January 16, 2022 at 8:54 PM

Hi Everyone,

Meet-and-greet and open Epicurean philosophy discussion -- this next Saturday February 25th at 2pm US Eastern Time -- We have several members who have already given an RSVP to say they would like to attend. And this meeting is open to all forum members -- please RSVP here and we will get the Zoom link to you by private Forum message.

Quote from Cassius

The right track to what?

Here in this thread I want to point out an example of the complexity (and difficulty) of thought and language.

Quote from Don

I think Buddhists would say "to want less, to control and tamp down our desires" is the right track.

And Don has explained:

Quote from Don

Just to be clear, I'm saying the Buddhists are wrong too. They would say tamping down desires is the right track.

But maybe Cassius was asking this:

There is the question of the goal: "the right track to what?"

Just like there is the idea within religion of Perennial philosophy, so to we need to watch out for some like this when comparing Epicureanism to other philosophies (such as the philosophy of Buddhism). I once read a very good explaination about why the belief in "perennial philosophy" is incorrect -- since the end goal of each religion is actually slightly different.

Quote from Nate

I want to force the other "Hedonists" to defend their "brand" of Hedonism with apologetic adjectives, like, "Unrestrained Hedonism", or "YOLO Hedonism".

Looked up "YOLO" -- On Urban Dictionary, scroll down as you read a few of the entries, cause it is kind of funny:

Thing is...that if "you only live once", then you shouldn't screw it up, and so this points to incorrect thinking regarding the best way to pursue pleasure -- and a disregard for the future and the long-term outcome.

Thinking of phrases...perhaps...Epicureanism = "Best Life Hedonism"

I am a little late in weighing in on this, but my first reaction is "be careful". And could there be something "stoic" about being frugal -- that it leads to the elevation of a type of virtue -- and the perfection of "frugality"?

The definition of frugality on the internet:

fru·gal·i·ty

/fro͞oˈɡalədē/

noun

the quality of being economical with money or food; thriftiness.

"he scorned the finer things in life and valued frugality and simplicity"

synonyms: thriftiness, carefulness, scrimping and saving, conservation, good management, caution, prudence, providence, canniness, abstemiousness, abstinence, austerity, asceticism, self-discipline, restraint, moderation, puritanism, monasticism, monkishness, miserliness, meanness, parsimoniousness, niggardliness, close-fistedness, tight-fistedness, tightness, stinginess, sparingness

Note that the definition includes "asceticism" as a synonym.

I would say that it is important to think of yourself as possessing prudence as a tool for making good choices, rather than being "frugal". There aren't any hard and fast rules for a pleasurable and pleasant life, and we judge each situation uniquely according to our given resources.

Looked up the definition of "prudence":

pru·dence

/ˈpro͞odns/

noun

the quality of being prudent; cautiousness.

"we need to exercise prudence in such important matters"

synonyms: wisdom, judgment, good judgment, judiciousness, sagacity, shrewdness, advisability, common sense, sense, caution, cautiousness, care, carefulness, canniness, chariness, wariness, circumspection, far-sightedness, foresight, forethought, discretion, thrift, thriftiness, providence, good management, careful budgeting, economy, frugality, abstemiousness, forehandedness, sparingness

LOL...frugality is a synonym