Ancient Epicurean Texts (300 BC to 300 AD)
Discussion of Ancient Epicurean Texts - Interpretatations, Greek/Latin Word Translations, Thoughts and Contemplations
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DavidNFebruary 22, 2024 at 6:29 PM
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CassiusAugust 30, 2023 at 7:14 AM
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DonOctober 30, 2024 at 11:55 AM CassiusSeptember 21, 2024 at 7:01 AM
The key surviving documents from Epicurus himself, including the Letter to Herodotus, the Letter to Pythocles, the letter to Menoeceus, the Principal Doctrines, and the "Vatican" List of Sayings.
Discussion of the Letter to Herodotus - On The Nature Of The Universe
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Discussion of the Letter to Pythocles - On Celestial Observations
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KalosyniJuly 15, 2024 at 5:40 PM
Discussion of the letter to Menoeceus - On How To Live
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Collecting and discussing the available fragments.
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Discussion of each of the Forty Principal Doctrines.
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The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak.
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Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us.
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The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.
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Pain does not last continuously in the flesh, but the acutest pain is there for a very short time, and even that which just exceeds the pleasure in the flesh does not continue for many days at once. But chronic illnesses permit a predominance of pleasure over pain in the flesh.
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It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly, [nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice] without living pleasantly. And the man who does not possess the pleasant life is not living prudently, honorably, and justly, [and the man who does not possess the virtuous life] cannot possibly live pleasantly.
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JoshuaSeptember 19, 2020 at 12:13 PM
Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good
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Don
September 8, 2021 at 11:57 AM
Some men wished to become famous and conspicuous, thinking that they would thus win for themselves safety from other men. Wherefore if the life of such men is safe, they have obtained the good which nature craves; but if it is not safe, they do not possess that for which they strove at first by the instinct of nature.
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No pleasure is a bad thing in itself: but the means which produce some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures.
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If every pleasure could be intensified so that it lasted and influenced the whole organism or the most essential parts of our nature, pleasures would never differ from one another.
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If the things that produce the pleasures of profligates could dispel the fears of the mind about the phenomena of the sky and death and its pains, and also teach the limits of desires (and of pains), we should never have cause to blame them: for they would be filling themselves full with pleasures from every source and never have pain of body or mind, which is the evil of life.
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If we were not troubled by our suspicions of the phenomena of the sky and about death, fearing that it concerns us, and also by our failure to grasp the limits of pains and desires, we should have no need of natural science.
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A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that without natural science it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.
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There is no profit in securing protection in relation to men, if things above and things beneath the earth and indeed all in the boundless universe remain matters of suspicion.
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The most unalloyed source of protection from men, which is secured to some extent by a certain force of expulsion, is in fact the immunity which results from a quiet life and the retirement from the world.
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The wealth demanded by nature is both limited and easily procured; that demanded by idle imaginings stretches on to infinity.
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In but few things chance hinders a wise man, but the greatest and most important matters reason has ordained and throughout the whole period of life does and will ordain.
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The just man is most free from trouble, the unjust most full of trouble.
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The pleasure in the flesh is not increased, when once the pain due to want is removed, but is only varied: and the limit as regards pleasure in the mind is begotten by the reasoned understanding of these very pleasures and of the emotions akin to them, which used to cause the greatest fear to the mind.
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Infinite time contains no greater pleasure than limited time, if one measures by reason the limits of pleasure.
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The flesh perceives the limits of pleasure as unlimited, and unlimited time is required to supply it. But the mind, having attained a reasoned understanding of the ultimate good of the flesh and its limits and having dissipated the fears concerning the time to come, supplies us with the complete life, and we have no further need of infinite time: but neither does the mind shun pleasure, nor, when circumstances begin to bring about the departure from life, does it approach its end as though it fell short in any way of the best life.
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He who has learned the limits of life knows that that which removes the pain due to want and makes the whole of life complete is easy to obtain, so that there is no need of actions which involve competition.
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We must consider both the real purpose and all the evidence of direct perception, to which we always refer the conclusions of opinion; otherwise, all will be full of doubt and confusion.
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If you fight against all sensations, you will have no standard by which to judge even those of them which you say are false.
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If you reject any single sensation and fail to distinguish between the conclusion of opinion as to the appearance awaiting confirmation and that which is actually given by the sensation or feeling, or each intuitive apprehension of the mind, you will confound all other sensations as well with the same groundless opinion, so that you will reject every standard of judgment. And if among the mental images created by your opinion you affirm both that which awaits confirmation and that which does not, you will not escape error, since you will have preserved the whole cause of doubt in every judgment between what is right and what is wrong.
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If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other nearer standard when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles.
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Of desires, all that do not lead to a sense of pain, if they are not satisfied, are not necessary, but involve a craving which is easily dispelled, when the object is hard to procure or they seem likely to produce harm.
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Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.
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The same conviction which has given us confidence that there is nothing terrible that lasts forever or even for long, has also seen the protection of friendship most fully completed in the limited evils of this life.
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Among desires some are natural (and necessary, some natural) but not necessary, and others neither natural nor necessary, but due to idle imagination.
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Wherever in the case of desires which are physical, but do not lead to a sense of pain, if they are not fulfilled, the effort is intense, such pleasures are due to idle imagination, and it is not owing to their own nature that they fail to be dispelled, but owing to the empty imaginings of the man.
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The justice which arises from nature is a pledge of mutual advantage to restrain men from harming one another and save them from being harmed.
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For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise too for all tribes of men which have been unable or unwilling to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.
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Justice never is anything in itself, but in the dealings of men with one another in any place whatever and at any time it is a kind of compact not to harm or be harmed.
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Injustice is not an evil in itself, but only in consequence of the fear which attaches to the apprehension of being unable to escape those appointed to punish such actions.
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It is not possible for one who acts in secret contravention of the terms of the compact not to harm or be harmed, to be confident that he will escape detection, even if at present he escapes a thousand times. For up to the time of death it cannot be certain that he will indeed escape.
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In its general aspect justice is the same for all, for it is a kind of mutual advantage in the dealings of men with one another: but with reference to the individual peculiarities of a country or any other circumstances the same thing does not turn out to be just for all.
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Among actions which are sanctioned as just by law, that which is proved on examination to be of advantage in the requirements of men’s dealings with one another, has the guarantee of justice, whether it is the same for all or not. But if a man makes a law and it does not turn out to lead to advantage in men’s dealings with each other, then it no longer has the essential nature of justice. And even if the advantage in the matter of justice shifts from one side to the other, but for a while accords with the general concept, it is nonetheless just for that period in the eyes of those who do not confound themselves with empty sounds but look to the actual facts.
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Where, provided the circumstances have not been altered, actions which were considered just, have been shown not to accord with the general concept in actual practice, then they are not just. But where, when circumstances have changed, the same actions which were sanctioned as just no longer lead to advantage, there they were just at the time when they were of advantage for the dealings of fellow-citizens with one another, but subsequently they are no longer just, when no longer of advantage.
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The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus.
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As many as possess the power to procure complete immunity from their neighbours, these also live most pleasantly with one another, since they have the most certain pledge of security, and after they have enjoyed the fullest intimacy, they do not lament the previous departure of a dead friend, as though he were to be pitied.
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Discussion of each of the sayings from what is known as the "Vatican List."
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The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favour. For all such things exist only in the weak. (Duplicate of PD1)
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Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us. (Duplicate of PD2)
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The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body nor of mind, nor of both at once. (Duplicate of PD3)
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All bodily suffering is negligible: for that which causes acute pain has short duration, and that which endures long in the flesh causes but mild pain. (Duplicate of PD4)
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It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, [nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and Justice] without living pleasantly. And the man who does not possess the pleasant life, is not living prudently and honorably and justly, [and the man who does not possess the virtuous life], cannot possibly live pleasantly. (Duplicate of PD5)
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To secure protection from men anything is a natural good, by which you may be able to attain this end. (Duplicate of PD6)
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It is hard for an evil-doer to escape detection, but to obtain security for escaping is impossible.
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No pleasure is a bad thing in itself: but the means which produce some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures. (Duplicate of PD8)
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Necessity is an evil, but there is no necessity to live under the control of necessity.
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Remember that you are of mortal nature and have a limited time to live and have devoted yourself to discussions on nature for all time and eternity and have seen ‘things that are now and are to come and have been.’
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For most men rest is stagnation and activity madness.
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A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that without natural science it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.
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There is no profit in securing protection in relation to men, if things above and things beneath the earth and indeed all in the boundless universe remain matters of suspicion.
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We are born once and cannot be born twice, but for all time must be no more. But you, who are not (master) of tomorrow, postpone your happiness: life is wasted in procrastination and each one of us dies without allowing himself leisure.
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Cassius
June 21, 2024 at 9:18 AM
We value our characters as something peculiar to ourselves, whether they are good and we are esteemed by men, or not; so ought we to value the characters of others, if they are well-disposed to us.
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No one when he sees evil deliberately chooses it, but is enticed by it as being good in comparison with a greater evil and so pursues it.
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It is not the young man who should be thought happy, but an old man who has lived a good life. For the young man at the height of his powers is unstable and is carried this way and that by fortune, like a headlong stream. But the old man has come to anchor in old age as though in port, and the good things for which before he hardly hoped he has brought into safe harborage in his grateful recollections.
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Remove sight, association and contact, and the passion of love is at an end.
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Forgetting the good that has been he has become old this very day.
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Same as PD 29
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We must not violate nature, but obey her; and we shall obey her if we fulfill the necessary desires and also the physical, if they bring no harm to us, but sternly reject the harmful.
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Same as PD 19
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All friendship is desirable in itself, though it starts from the need of help.
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Dreams have no divine character nor any prophetic force, but they originate from the influx of images.
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Poverty, when measured by the natural purpose of life, is great wealth, but unlimited wealth is great poverty.
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You must understand that whether the discourse be long or short it tends to the same end.
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In all other occupations the fruit comes painfully after completion, but in philosophy pleasure goes hand in hand with knowledge; for enjoyment does not follow comprehension, but comprehension and enjoyment are simultaneous.
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We must not approve either those who are always ready for friendship, or those who hang back, but for friendship’s sake we must even run risks.
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In investigating nature I would prefer to speak openly and like an oracle to give answers serviceable to all mankind, even though no one should understand me, rather than to conform to popular opinions and so win the praise freely scattered by the mob.
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Some men throughout their lives gather together the means of life, for they do not see that the draught swallowed by all of us at birth is a draught of death.
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Against all else it is possible to provide security, but as against death all of us mortals alike dwell in an unfortified city.
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Don
July 15, 2023 at 11:21 PM
The veneration of the wise man is a great blessing to those who venerate him.
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The flesh cries out to be saved from hunger, thirst and cold. For if a man possess this safety and hope to possess it, he might rival even Zeus in happiness.
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It is not so much our friends’ help that helps us as the confidence of their help.
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We should not spoil what we have by desiring what we have not, but remember that what we have too was the gift of fortune.
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Epicurus’ life when compared to other men’s in respect of gentleness and self-sufficiency might be thought a mere legend.
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Nature is weak towards evil, not towards good: because it is saved by pleasures, but destroyed by pains.
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He is a little man in all respects who has many good reasons for quitting life.
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He is no friend who is continually asking for help, nor he who never associates help with friendship. For the former barters kindly feeling for a practical return and the latter destroys the hope of good in the future.
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The man who says that all things come to pass by necessity cannot criticize one who denies that all things come to pass by necessity: for he admits that this too happens of necessity.
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We must laugh and philosophize at the same time and do our household duties and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy.
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The greatest blessing is created and enjoyed at the same moment. Note: See DeWitt translation and interpretation.
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The love of money, if unjustly gained, is impious, and, if justly, shameful; for it is unseemly to be merely parsimonious even with justice on one's side.
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The wise man when he has accommodated himself to straits knows better how to give than to receive: so great is the treasure of self-sufficiency which he has discovered.
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The study of nature does not make men productive of boasting or bragging nor apt to display that culture which is the object of rivalry with the many, but high-spirited and self-sufficient, taking pride in the good things of their own minds and not of their circumstances.
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Our bad habits, like evil men who have long done us great harm, let us utterly drive from us.
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I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And we will not give ourselves up as captives to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who here vainly cling to it, we will leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that we have lived well.
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We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying, but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content.
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You tell me that the stimulus of the flesh makes you too prone to the pleasures of love. Provided that you do not break the laws or good customs and do not distress any of your neighbors or do harm to your body or squander your pittance, you may indulge your inclination as you please. Yet it is impossible not to come up against one or other of these barriers: for the pleasures of love never profited a man and he is lucky if they do him no harm.
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Friendship goes dancing round the world proclaiming to us all to awake to the praises of a happy life.
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We must envy no one: for the good do not deserve envy and the bad, the more they prosper, the more they injure themselves.
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We must not pretend to study philosophy, but study it in reality: for it is not the appearance of health that we need, but real health.
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We must heal our misfortunes by the grateful recollection of what has been and by the recognition that it is impossible to make undone what has been done.
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The wise man is not more pained when being tortured (himself, than when seeing) his friend (tortured): (but if his friend does him wrong), his whole life will be confounded by distrust and completely upset.
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We must release ourselves from the prison of affairs and politics.
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It is not the stomach that is insatiable, as is generally said, but the false opinion that the stomach needs an unlimited amount to fill it.
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Every man passes out of life as though he had just been born.
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Most beautiful too is the sight of those near and dear to us, when our original kinship makes us of one mind; for such sight is a great incitement to this end.
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Now if parents are justly angry with their children, it is certainly useless to fight against it and not to ask for pardon; but if their anger is unjust and irrational, it is quite ridiculous to add fuel to their irrational passion by nursing one’s own indignation, and not to attempt to turn aside their wrath in other ways by gentleness.
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Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is in like case with him who errs through excess.
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Praise from others must come unasked: we must concern ourselves with the healing of our own lives.
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It is vain to ask of the gods what a man is capable of supplying for himself.
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Let us show our feeling for our lost friends not by lamentation but by meditation.
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A free life cannot acquire many possessions, because this is not easy to do without servility to mobs or monarchs, yet it possesses all things in unfailing abundance; and if by chance it obtains many possessions, it is easy to distribute them so as to win the gratitude of neighbors.
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Nothing is sufficient for him to whom what is sufficient seems little.
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The ungrateful greed of the soul makes the creature everlastingly desire varieties of dainty food.
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Let nothing be done in your life, which will cause you fear if it becomes known to your neighbor.
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Every desire must be confronted with this question: what will happen to me, if the object of my desire is accomplished and what if it is not?
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The occurrence of certain bodily pains assists us in guarding against others like them.
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In a philosophical discussion he who is worsted gains more in proportion as he learns more.
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Ungrateful towards the blessings of the past is the saying, ‘Wait till the end of a long life.’
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You are in your old age just such as I urge you to be, and you have seen the difference between studying philosophy for oneself and proclaiming it to Greece at large: I rejoice with you.
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The greatest fruit of self-sufficiency is freedom.
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The noble soul occupies itself with wisdom and friendship : of these the one is a mortal good, the other immortal.
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The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another.
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The first measure of security is to watch over one’s youth and to guard against what makes havoc of all by means of pestering desires.
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The disturbance of the soul cannot be ended nor true joy created either by the possession of the greatest wealth or by honor and respect in the eyes of the mob or by anything else that is associated with causes of unlimited desire.
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Discussion of the Biography and Last Will of Epicurus
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JuliaNovember 11, 2024 at 4:09 PM
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Cassius
January 11, 2020 at 11:31 AM CassiusOctober 7, 2019 at 12:35 PM
This forum is for discussion of the many different translations and editions of the text of the poem.
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Joshua
July 14, 2024 at 6:00 PM
Book 2
0
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Cassius
September 16, 2019 at 8:55 PM CassiusJune 30, 2018 at 9:55 AM
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Cassius
April 1, 2022 at 7:47 PM
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The Herculaneum scroll of incomplete title in which the "Tetrapharmakon" appears, often referred to by Papyrus Number ( "P.Herc 1005") or by the surviving partial title in Greek "Pros Tous..."
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Cassius
February 26, 2022 at 5:00 AM
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Cassius
March 8, 2024 at 8:12 AM 
BryanDecember 14, 2023 at 10:08 AM
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PacatusNovember 2, 2022 at 12:48 PM
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GodfreyJune 10, 2024 at 9:00 PM CassiusMay 31, 2024 at 9:29 AM
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