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PD14 - Alternate Translations

  • Cassius
  • November 19, 2017 at 11:40 AM
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    • November 19, 2017 at 11:40 AM
    • #1

    Alternate Translations - Please post in the Lexicon as per the example here

  • Cassius April 11, 2021 at 4:32 PM

    Changed the title of the thread from “Alternate Translations” to “PD14 - Alternate Translations”.
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    • August 31, 2021 at 8:47 AM
    • #2

    It looks like we have a significant difference among sources as to how PD14 should end, so we need to have a discussion as to why that is the case, and this thread is the best place for that. This is prompted by Nate's graphic here Principal Doctrine 14 which cites Inwood and Gerson:

    XIV "The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, although a certain degree of security from other men does come by means of the power to repel [attacks] and by means of prosperity." (Epicurus, Principal Doctrine 14) PD14 Translated by Inwood and Gerson (1994)

    The other cites we've listed initially are:

    Bailey Version: 14. The most unalloyed source of protection from men, which is secured to some extent by a certain force of expulsion, is in fact the immunity which results from a quiet life, and retirement from the world.

    Greek: 14Τῆς ἀσφαλείας τῆς ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενομένης μέχρι τινὸς δυνάμει τινὶ ἐξερειστικῇ καὶ εὐπορίᾳ εἰλικρινεστάτη γίνεται ἡ ἐκ τῆς ἡσυχίας καὶ ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν ἀσφάλεια.

    Hicks translation: 14 When tolerable security against our fellow-men is attained, then on a basis of power arises most genuine bliss, to wit, the security of a private life withdrawn from the multitude.

    Saint-Andre translation: 14 Although some measure of safety from others comes from the power to fight them off and from abundant wealth, the purest security comes from solitude and breaking away from the herd.

    Emidio Spinnelli paper: The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, after having obtained a certain degree of security with respect to other men by means of comfort and prosperity.

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    • August 31, 2021 at 1:51 PM
    • #3

    "Supreme power and great wealth may, to some degree, protect us from other men; but security in general depends upon peace of mind and social detachment." PD14, Epicurus Wiki

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    • August 31, 2021 at 3:44 PM
    • #4

    I was just about to post that too ^^

    Here's the link:

    http://wiki.epicurism.info/Principal_Doctrine_14/

    I think the commentary there is very good as well per their translation.*

    The Greek above in #2 agrees with Bailey/Usener so I'm good with that.

    *PS: I'll have something to say about some of their interpretation however.

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    • September 1, 2021 at 8:40 AM
    • #5


    My translation and interpretation are my own, informed by all the scholarly materials referenced above as well as Bailey's commentary on this Principal Doctrine in his Extant Remains.

    I want to first look at several individual words.

    ἀσφαλείας

    "assurance from danger, personal safety"

    ἀσφαλείας is about personal, individual safety from danger, one's own personal safety from harm. It's not an abstract concept of "Safety" or "Security" writ large. It asks, "How do I keep myself free from harm?"

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀσφάλ-εια

    ἐξερειστικῇ & δυνάμει

    Epicurus Wikis "the ability to repel" through one's own power/strength δυνάμει (dynamei, compare English dynamo, dynamite) is good.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δύνα^μις

    ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν

    Epicurus Wiki has just "of withdrawal from the many." τῶν πολλῶν is simply the genitive plural of hoi polloi, the many, the rabble, colloquially the mass of average people out on the street. This is the exact phrase Epicurus uses to describe those who hold erroneous views about the gods in the Letter to Menoikeus.

    ἐκχωρήσεως I found interesting after digging in. LSJ gives "retirement, withdrawal from" and even cites PD 14. But I tried to break it down further. ἐκ is the prefix for "out of, away from, etc." So if we take that off, we get χωρήσεως, which has to be a form of χωρέω "go, make way, make room, withdraw, etc." This verb is related to χώρα and χώρος (χῶρος (khôros, “place”) +‎ -έω (-éō)) that mean, as one of their senses, "land, country as opposed to the city; field, farm, estate."

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=xw%3dros1

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Χ χ, , χωλός , χώρα

    This would relate right back to the characteristic of the sage in that they are fond of the country as opposed to the city. That uses a different word for "country'' but the connotation is exactly the same. In deference to Cassius, it's not a cave! It doesn't convey the mountains or wastelands. I'm seeing this more as connoting a country villa or retreat, maybe think Villa of the Papyri outside Herculaneum or The Garden. I would also note that the original Garden was not some remote location. It was just outside the city walls directly along the road to the Academy.

    ἡσυχίας From Strong's: "descriptive of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others," 2 Thessalonians 3:12 Thessalonians wasn't written until the mid-late 1st century CE, but the connotation would be there earlier, just maybe less emphatic. The LSJ has stillness, ease, leisure, rest, quiet.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἡσυ^χ-ία

    I could see this as also referring to our being a synonym for ataraxia.

    [NOTE: Aristophanes personifies Hesykhias Ησυχίας in line 1321 of The Birds, glossed here as "gentle peace." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…1&lang=original ]

    εἰλικρινεστάτη superlative, "most unmixed, purest"

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, εἰλικριν-ής

    This aligns with the characteristics I included in my translation of the characteristics of the sage under the heading Living Unknown https://sites.google.com/view/epicurean…nown?authuser=0

    In my opinion then, Bailey and Saint-Andre get closest to a literal translation adhering to the original Greek. I will say it can't be solitude PD14 is talking about since Epicurus stressed the importance of friendship. There's going to be people around you. But this PD seems to stress the quiet life, not being troubled by the hustle and bustle of the hoi polloi.

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    • September 1, 2021 at 8:53 AM
    • #6

    Don what about the "prosperity" part - that seems to me the most controversial aspect of the quote. I am surprised that Inwood and Gerson would deviate so far from what appears to be otherwise the consensus. That is from page 33 of the Epicurus Reader and unfortunately there appear to be no footnotes. I don't know how we can track that down but such a departure calls into question the reliability of the Epicurus Reader if there is no good reason for it.

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    • September 1, 2021 at 10:06 AM
    • #7

    I'm seeing "prosperity" simply as a paraphrase for εὐπορίᾳ

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=eu%29pori%2Fa%7C&la=greek&can=eu%29pori%2Fa%7C0&prior=kai\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0257:book=10&i=1#lexicon

    It's the opposite of πενία

    Greek Word Study Tool

    PS: "Up to a certain point, personal safety can be achieved by the power to repel and wealth, but the purest safety..."

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    • September 1, 2021 at 8:43 PM
    • #8

    Here's my highly idiosyncratic paraphrase of PD14, incorporating the notes above:

    "Up to a certain point, personal safety can be obtained by being powerful and wealthy, but the surest way to personal safety is from withdrawing from the hustle and bustle of the hoi polloi and from the peace gained from not meddling in the affairs of others."

    Edited once, last by Don: Changed paraphrase for ησυχίας. (September 2, 2021 at 7:15 AM).

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    • September 3, 2021 at 1:49 AM
    • #9

    I noticed with other PD's, too, that Saint-Andre's translation appears to be the most consistent with Epicurus' philosophy as a whole as we usually interpret it here with quite some consensus.

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    • September 3, 2021 at 7:18 AM
    • #10
    Quote from Cassius

    Saint-Andre translation: 14 Although some measure of safety from others comes from the power to fight them off and from abundant wealth, the purest security comes from solitude and breaking away from the herd.

    Agreed Martin -- I much prefer "breaking away from the herd" to "retirement from the world."

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    • September 3, 2021 at 9:13 AM
    • #11
    Quote from Cassius

    I much prefer "breaking away from the herd" to "retirement from the world."

    And yet if the Greek really very clearly were "retirement from the world" it would probably be best to keep that. Probably the key word that bothers me is the "retirement" or "withdraw" that can be read to imply exhaustion and "giving up" - which is very different from "breaking away from the herd."

    Don did you opine on your ultimate view on that word? I see you were considering "go, make way, make room, withdraw, etc."

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    • September 3, 2021 at 1:19 PM
    • #12

    I don't get "retirement **from the world**" at all from ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν at all. It's literally "'withdrawal' from the hoi polloi." It doesn't say society, culture, world, etc. It's specifically referring to withdrawal from the masses, which is why I think "herd" is such a good choice. Those who want to assign ascetic or antisocial tendencies to Epicurus and his school are reading more into that hoi polloi than I think prudent.

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    • September 3, 2021 at 1:45 PM
    • #13

    OK I will say it:. The intersection of the viewpoint of many academics with their preferred translation may well be that the academics consider everyone but themselves to be hoi polloi, and thus they see no difference between "hoi polloi" and "the world."

    ...which I strongly believe was *not* Epicurus' viewpoint. I believe if forced to choose, Epicurus would take the "hoipolloi" over the "golden" academics most any day of the week, as would I! :)

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    • September 3, 2021 at 2:42 PM
    • #14
    Quote from Cassius

    ...which I strongly believe was *not* Epicurus' viewpoint. I believe if forced to choose, Epicurus would take the "hoipolloi" over the "golden" academics most any day of the week, as would I!

    Doesn't he say as much in the Letter to Menoikeus about accepting myths?

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    • September 3, 2021 at 2:58 PM
    • #15
    Quote from Don

    Doesn't he say as much in the Letter to Menoikeus about accepting myths?

    Yes exactly and I started to add that as my own reference but I didn't want to sound too argumentative this afternoon ;)

    I seem to recall that DeWitt thought that Epicurus considered Plato to be a skeptic, and I think the "accepting myths" probably applied to Plato too even though that's in a section where Epicurus was referencing determinism. And I'd probably double down and say that if you accepted Plato's view of the universe you really wouldn't have much choice except to follow his rules, so even an accusation of hard determinism might be in play too.

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    • September 3, 2021 at 3:04 PM
    • #16

    We're talking about this, right?

    Quote from Epicurus

    ‘It is better to endorse the myths about the gods than to be enslaved to the ‘‘fate’’ of the natural philosophers.’

    Yeah, I take this to mean, "Give me the myths believed by the hoi polloi any day over the determinism of the academics!" Not that he endorsed those myths! But, given those two options...

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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:16 PM
    • #17
    Quote

    I don't get "retirement **from the world**" at all from ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν at all. It's literally "'withdrawal' from the hoi polloi."

    Quote

    OK I will say it:. The intersection of the viewpoint of many academics with their preferred translation may well be that the academics consider everyone but themselves to be hoi polloi, and thus they see no difference between "hoi polloi" and "the world.

    A slightly more charitable interpretation (since their Greek is better than mine);

    Some of the translators may be latching on to a punning connection between πολύς (many) and πόλις (city-state, or more poetically "the affairs of the world").

    But Epicurus is known to have favored plainer speech. Further, he chose Athens, the beating heart of Greek culture. Samos off the coast of Asia was at a far greater remove from the Greek world.

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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:25 PM
    • #18
    Quote from JJElbert

    But Epicurus is known to have favored plainer speech. Further, he chose Athens, the beating heart of Greek culture. Samos off the coast of Asia was at a far greater remove from the Greek world.

    Yes, I would concur, although Epicurus was an Athenian citizen by birth, too. I keep coming back to the fact that even Epicurus didn't "withdraw from the world." He's placed his Garden only a few stadia outside Athen's walls directly on the busy road that went past the Academy out to the rest of Attica. It makes more sense to me that he withdrew from there masses, the rat race, the hustle and bustle of City life. The Garden was a refuge of sorts but it wasn't isolated or inaccessible. The whole idea, as I understand, was to make it accessible to those who sought it out.

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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:38 PM
    • #19

    Yes–by a modern (and U.S. centered) analogy, he set up shop in Central Park, not in Montana.

    But I suspect that like Aristotle he would have found his way to Athens in any case. A century or two earlier, Miletus: a century or two later, perhaps Alexandria.

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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:56 PM
    • #20

    I suspect he's doing just like what a lot of us are probably doing -- making sure that we have a private retreat, but also that we're located to take advantage of most if not all of the modern conveniences.

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