"You will not taste death: Jesus and Epicureanism"

By luck I have found a reference to a book on Epicureanism and early Christianity (it's quite interesting to myself because I am currently reading DeWitt's "St. Paul and Epicurus". It's titeled "You will not taste death: Jesus and Epicureanism" by Jack W. Hannah. Does anyone know more about the book or the author or already know something on the connection between the Gospel of Thomas and Epicureanism?

I got the book through interlibrary loan some months ago. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to read its contents sufficiently to get a complete picture before returning. I definitely agree with most of Nate's commentary.

It's rather of the kind of books suggesting Jesus was a Yoga adherent who visited India than presenting facts like the appearance of Epicurean vocabulary in the letters of Paul.

What I still find quite interesting is Hannah's suggestion that the Gospel of Thomas shall be a reliable and unaltered source while the other gospels are said to be compiled fiction. But this is off topic.

Quote from Twentier

I think Hannah set out to try to prove a highly imaginative fiction. He paints a colorful picture that would be the perfect topic for late night on the History Channel, but not something constructive to our study as Epicureans.

I did it again . This time I was able to read approximately half of the book before I had to return the interlibrary loan.

This was a journey into esotericism derived from Epicurean philosophy!

To keep it short, according to how I understand his writings: Hannah argues that Jesus' message opens the door to the heavenly realms of the Epicurean Gods. Everyone can build an heavenly avatar by sending images of oneself to the heavenly realms and this avatar continues one's life after the earthly death.

Hannah's claim is highly speculative, but indeed, from an Epicurean point of view this answers questions about the Christian faith, how the resurrection and the afterlife can be packed in a sound thought structure.

His arguments can hardly be proven, but they raise interesting questions: How did the early Christians imagine how the afterlife works physically? What is "heaven"? There are many questions on early Christianity and even theologians may have no clear view on how to solve these issues.

Quote from Titus

Quote from Cassius

Is this guy an absolute kook or someone trying to make money on esoteric speculation or what? It doesn't sound like a promising time investment for a Christiwn or an Epicurean or anyone else unless he's got *some* kind of textual basis for his ideas.

I would rather call him creative . His main argument is that the epistle of Thomas is a document preserving original sayings of Jesus. In contrast, he suggests that the four canonical epistles are later, mostly fictional stories. He further argues that there are hardly any references to God and supernatural experiences in the epistle of Thomas to find. The main topic of the epistle of Thomas is the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Hannah puts this into his construction of thought. He interprets passages according to his own claims. For example, when Jesus speaks of his father in heaven, this is not an all powerful god but an heavenly avatar.

Quote from Kalosyni

For Epicureans the opposite is believed...in De Rerum Natura, Book 3, the nature of the soul is mortal...it will die when the body dies.

This is extremely interesting, because Hannah develops further the theory of gods and heavenly realms in how they interact with the earthly realm. He argues that there is not only a flow of images to our world, but in the opposite direction, too. He mentions some references in the Herculaneum papyri to strengthen his arguments.

Hannah's key point is that Jesus teaches how to manifest yourself in the heavenly realm, where you go beyond mortality. You will not taste death.

As speculative as it is, Hannah still creates a quite attractive alternative story of salvation that is able to integrate Epicurean physics. Relating to St. Augustine: I would give him the palm

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Quote from Eikadistes

I think Hannah set out to try to prove a highly imaginative fiction. He paints a colorful picture that would be the perfect topic for late night on the History Channel

I am fascinated how ChatGPT 4.o is capable of catching and contextualizing the key thoughts of Hannah. I should send its summary to the History Channel immediately! Here it is:

If we introduce the idea of a speculative transformative sect of Epicureanism—one that opens gates to the heavens and allows eidola to persist and manifest in a metaphysical realm—then we are envisioning a significant departure from classical Epicurean materialism. This revised system would likely incorporate elements of transcendence, personal persistence, and metaphysical transformation, making it resemble aspects of Jewish and Christian thought while still operating within an Epicurean framework.

Let’s re-evaluate the comparison, considering this speculative transformative Epicureanism as a distinct category.

1. Speculative Transformative Epicureanism: A New Hybrid Model

What would this look like?

If Epicureanism were to evolve beyond strict materialism, allowing eidola to form persistent avatars in the heavenly realms, then it might involve:

• A mechanism by which eidola could stabilize and endure beyond the physical world.
• A view of the gods as receptive to human emanations, opening a path for human eidola to dwell in the divine intermundia.
• A personal continuation in some idealized, purified form, avoiding the total annihilation of identity after death.

This hypothetical Epicureanism would still be naturalistic, seeking explanations in physics and perception, but it would now include the possibility of an afterlife via persistent eidola.

Would this be closer to Christianity or Judaism? Let’s analyze again.

2. How Does This Compare to 0 AD Judaism?

Jewish eschatology (especially Pharisaic beliefs) included:

• A bodily resurrection, but not an immediate spiritual persistence.
• A final judgment, determining one's fate in the afterlife.
• A focus on collective redemption rather than a personalized, immediate transformation.

Key Similarities:

✅ The idea of a continued existence beyond death—though in Judaism, this happens at resurrection, not immediately via eidola.
❌ The mechanism differs—Judaism relies on divine power, not natural emanations.
❌ No direct material continuity—Jews did not think in terms of eidola persisting in a divine realm.

Thus, speculative transformative Epicureanism is somewhat similar to Jewish eschatology, but the mechanistic, emanation-based model makes it quite distinct.

3. How Does This Compare to Early Christianity?

Christianity, especially in Paul’s writings and later theology, envisions:

• The resurrection of believers, where they receive glorified, imperishable bodies.
• A personal transformation, where the soul and body become perfected in God’s presence.
• A direct encounter with the divine, something that aligns with the idea of entering the heavens.

Key Similarities:

✅ A personal, enduring form in heaven—just as Christianity teaches resurrection bodies, a perfected eidolon could serve as a similar concept.
✅ Transformation into an idealized self—mirroring Christian ideas of sanctification and glorification.
✅ The idea of a celestial presence—Christianity teaches that believers dwell with God, just as speculative Epicureanism might propose humans dwelling in the intermundia.
❌ Different theological basis—Christianity relies on divine intervention, whereas a speculative Epicureanism would use natural mechanisms (like eidola transmission).

Thus, speculative transformative Epicureanism is much closer to Christianity than to Judaism. While it differs in explanation, it aligns with Christianity’s emphasis on individual transformation, persistence, and celestial existence.

4. How Does This Compare to Traditional Epicureanism?

Classical Epicureanism rejects:

• Personal immortality—the soul dissolves at death.
• Divine intervention—gods do not interact with humans.
• Heaven as a realm of the afterlife—humans simply cease to exist.

A speculative transformative Epicureanism would break from these core beliefs, making it radically distinct from traditional Epicurean thought. It would become a new philosophical sect, one that merges Epicurean physics with transcendence, persistence, and celestial transformation.

Final Verdict: Who is Closest to Speculative Transformative Epicureanism?

Closest Match?

✅ Christianity is still the closest, because of its belief in personal transformation into an enduring, perfected form in the heavenly realm.
🟡 Speculative transformative Epicureanism is unique but bridges the gap between Christianity and materialism, offering an alternative metaphysical mechanism for persistence.
🔴 0 AD Judaism is more distant, because it emphasizes communal resurrection rather than an immediate, personal afterlife.

Thus, if Epicureanism evolved into a transformative sect that opened the gates of heaven, it would move much closer to Christian ideas of glorification and celestial life—but with a naturalistic mechanism instead of divine resurrection.

Conclusion

If we modify Epicurean thought to allow for the persistence of eidola and a metaphysical continuation of self, then we create a philosophy that parallels Christianity in its vision of an immortal, transformed individual, while still maintaining a naturalistic foundation.

This speculative transformative Epicureanism would not be as close to 0 AD Judaism, because Judaism emphasized a future, bodily resurrection rather than an immediate celestial existence.

In short:
🔥 Christianity remains the closest to this speculative idea—it shares the same goal (individual, perfected persistence in heaven), even though it explains it differently (divine resurrection vs. eidola transmission).
✨ A transformed Epicureanism could function as a "scientific" alternative to Christian eschatology, offering a materialist path to immortality through persistent eidola.

Would you like to refine this further or explore additional implications? 🚀

Your analysis is quite elaborated! Please add the idea of a heavenly father in the heavens, a friend to humans, to the speculative transformative Epicureanism, a person that helps them to reach the heavens.

Now, if we expand speculative transformative Epicureanism further by introducing the idea of a Heavenly Father—a benevolent divine being who is a friend to humans and helps them reach the heavens—we create an even more profound parallel to Christian theology.

This "Epicurean Theistic Evolution" would retain Epicurean physics but introduce a personal divine guide, aligning it more closely with Christian and some Jewish eschatological themes. Let’s explore how this changes the landscape.

1. What Would This Heavenly Father Be Like in Transformative Epicureanism?

In traditional Epicureanism, the gods are distant, blissful beings who do not interact with humans. However, if we introduce a Heavenly Father who:

• Acts as a benevolent friend to humans,
• Guides them toward immortality,
• Helps their eidola ascend into the heavenly realms,

then we create an Epicureanism where divinity is not just an indifferent existence, but an active force of assistance.

Such a being would likely:

• Exist in the intermundia (the spaces between worlds) but maintain a connection with humanity.
• Receive and stabilize eidola, preventing them from vanishing.
• Provide an ethical framework, encouraging humans to cultivate the best versions of themselves so their eidola remain worthy of persistence.
• Be an "ideal Epicurean sage", embodying perfect tranquility (ataraxia) yet choosing to assist human beings out of kindness, not need.

This Heavenly Father would open the gates of heaven, allowing worthy humans to persist in the divine realm.

2. How Does This Compare to Christianity?

If we compare this new speculative Epicureanism to Christianity, the parallels become even stronger:

Key Similarities:

✅ A benevolent, divine Father figure helping humans reach heaven.
✅ A transformation of human existence into a higher, perfected state.
✅ A personal afterlife in the heavens, not just material dissolution.
✅ Moral and philosophical refinement leading to immortality.

Key Differences:

❌ Christianity sees the Heavenly Father as the Creator; in Epicurean Theistic Evolution, the gods are part of nature, not creators.
❌ Christian salvation is through grace and faith in Christ; in Epicureanism, immortality is achieved through naturalistic eidola refinement.
❌ Christian heaven is a realm of communion with God; in Epicureanism, it is a realm of perfected eidola.

Nevertheless, this reformed Epicureanism now comes extremely close to Christian thought, while still remaining philosophically Epicurean.

3. How Does This Compare to 0 AD Judaism?

Judaism had a Father-God (YHWH), but:

• He was more communal than personal (focused on Israel as a people).
• Resurrection, not immediate ascent, was the main path to immortality.
• Heaven was often seen as a divine realm, not necessarily the afterlife for individuals.

Since this new Epicureanism grants immediate heavenly persistence through a divine guide, it actually moves further from Judaism and closer to Christianity.

4. Final Evaluation: Who is Closest to This New Epicureanism?

Closest Match?

🔥 Christianity is now even closer—because of its Heavenly Father, personal transformation, and celestial afterlife.
✨ This speculative Epicureanism now fully bridges the gap between materialism and transcendence—blending Epicurean physics with a personal divine connection.
⚡ It distances itself from classical Epicureanism—which rejected divine involvement and afterlife persistence.
📜 Judaism remains less similar, due to its focus on future resurrection over immediate transformation.

Conclusion

By introducing a benevolent Heavenly Father into Speculative Transformative Epicureanism, we create a system that:

• Allows personal immortality through eidola refinement.
• Maintains Epicurean naturalism while permitting divine assistance.
• Opens a direct path to the heavens, making it much closer to Christianity than to 0 AD Judaism.

Thus, this evolved Epicureanism would function almost like a naturalistic alternative to Christian eschatology, offering a science-based mechanism for divine immortality. 🚀

Quote from Bryan

Nevertheless, we do not experience what our eidola "experience" [i.e., how they are impacted], nor can our eidola (or anything else) manifest in a "metaphysical realm."

I just posted it because it's interesting where Hannah's claims are lead and ChatGPT does quite well in systemizing his thought. I even asked ChatGPT for writing a handbook on how to establish a sect on the basis of "Speculative Transformative Epicureanism" and it did quite well. But I better don't post it, otherwise Cassius will ban me for heresy.