Foundations 005 - By His Victory Religion Is Trampled Underfoot

Quote from Don

Sorry. I love digging in the weeds of language!

No reason for apology at all. As we have AMPLY seen, the translators - even in narrative form - cannot be trusted not to do their own editorializing by omitting or adding words/concepts. The only way to be confident in the final result is to check them.

I do think that we can form a generalized impression of a particular writer -- such as my own views which I constantly revise but that I will list here:

Munro tends to be highly literal but can be awkward to read; Bailey is a more polished version of Munro but is much less to be trusted in his interpretations because he is not ultimately a fan of Epicurus' views; Brown editorializes but frequently seems most trustworthy in interpreting Epicurusso; Smith has access to the latest and best scholarship but regularly editorializes and may be less trustworthy that Brown; Stallings has a good feel for the poetry but is probably not a reliable indicator on deep philosophy; Humphries has a good feel for the poetry but probably goes too far in some of his poetic flights ("the way things are").

Might actually be a good idea to set up a table of our impressions of the various translators. There will never be a way to judge them "objectively" but might be helpful to compare subjective opinions.

Quote from JJElbert

That's a highly daring translation of the most dangerous line in a hugely subversive poem. It's no great wonder the translator remained anonymous!

Yes I agree. At first I thought daring in a negative way, but on quick second thought I think your point is that it doubles down on the as religious aspect, and I agree. I think I will have to add this to my mental list of examples where I think the Brown translator is more in tune with Epicurus and Lucretius than the later translators. I tend to think this is an example (especially compared to Smith) where we have moved further away from the meaning of Lucretius over the last 200 years rather than closer.

This is why when I come across a difficult passage my money is on Brown giving the version that is most in tune with the intended inflections.

Don that "in turn" reminds me of the statement made earlier in the poem about a double-edged victory. It looks like its Book 3 around 510. Here is Bailey but I think it's more clear in some others. Maybe it's just poetic reinforcement by repetition, but this earlier passage makes me think there might be something about "doubling-down" in Epicurean thought.

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[510] And since we perceive that the mind is cured, just like the sick body, and we see that it can be changed by medicine, this too forewarns us that the mind has a mortal life. For whosoever attempts and essays to alter the mind, or seeks to change any other nature, must indeed add parts to it or transfer them from their order, or take away some small whit at least from the whole. But what is immortal does not permit its parts to be transposed, nor that any whit should be added or depart from it. For whenever a thing changes and passes out of its own limits, straightway this is the death of that which was before. And so whether the mind is sick, it gives signs of its mortality, as I have proved, or whether it is changed by medicine. So surely is true fact seen to run counter to false reasoning, and to shut off retreat from him who flees, and with double-edged refutation to prove the falsehood.

Munro:

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[510] And since we perceive that the mind is healed like the sick body, and we see that it can be altered by medicine, this too gives warning that the mind has a mortal existence. For it is natural that whosoever essays and attempts to change the mind or seeks to alter any other nature you like, should add new parts or change the arrangement of the present, or withdraw in short some tittle from the sum. But that which is immortal wills not to have its parts transposed nor any addition to be made nor one tittle to ebb away; for whenever a thing changes and quits its proper limits, this change is at once the death of that which was before. Therefore the mind, whether it is sick or whether it is altered by medicine alike, as I have shown, gives forth mortal symptoms. So invariably is truth found to make head against false reason and to cut off all retreat from the assailant, and by a two-fold refutation to put falsehood to rout.

Interestingly Brown does not highlight the "doubling" or "two-fold"

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[510] And since we see the mind can be made sound, and be affected by the powers of medicine, as well as a disordered body, this is a strong evidence that the mind is mortal; for whoever attempts to make any alteration in the mind, or offers to change the nature of any other thing, must either add some new parts to it, or take off some of the old, or else transpose the former order and situation; but what is immortal can have nothing added to it, or taken from it, nor will admit of any change in the order of its parts: for whatever is so altered as to leave the limits of its first nature, is no more what it was, but instantly dies. The mind, therefore, whether it be distempered, or relieved by medicine, shows (as I observed) strong symptoms of its mortality. So evidently does the true matter of fact overthrow all false reasoning, that there is no possibility to escape its force; and the contrary opinion is either way fully refuted.

But Loeb does:

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....so completely is the truth seen to combat false reasoning, and to cut off its retreat as it flies, and to convict falsehood by a double refutation.

Latin from Perseus (not sure exactly where)

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Et quoniam mentem sanari corpus ut aegrum cernimus et flecti medicina posse videmus, id quoque praesagit mortalem vivere mentem. addere enim partis aut ordine traiecere aecumst aut aliquid prosum de summa detrahere hilum, 515commutare animum qui cumque adoritur et infit aut aliam quamvis naturam flectere quaerit. at neque transferri sibi partis nec tribui vult inmortale quod est quicquam neque defluere hilum; nam quod cumque suis mutatum finibus exit, 520continuo hoc mors est illius quod fuit ante. ergo animus sive aegrescit, mortalia signa mittit, uti docui, seu flectitur a medicina. usque adeo falsae rationi vera videtur res occurrere et effugium praecludere eunti 525ancipitique refutatu convincere falsum. Denique saepe hominem paulatim cernimus ire et membratim vitalem deperdere sensum; in pedibus primum digitos livescere et unguis, inde pedes et crura mori, post inde per artus 530ire alios tractim gelidi vestigia leti.

Seeing the Stallings version pushes me back in the direction of the ultimate implication being, as per Browne, that the result of the victory is that we live "as gods." That's what would be sanctioned by Epicurus suggesting we live as gods among men, and Lucretius himself comparing Epicurus to a god. I suppose I need to think generically about what it means to go "to the skies" or "to the heavens" but I am not sure I see other allusions in the Epicurean texts to "to the stars" or "to the skies" as being a reference to superior living, or excellence in general. Oops - isn't there a reference to the Canon of Truth being something that is almost fallen from heaven - maybe that's the example to look for heaven / skies?

Also, what are you guys seeing about the "victory" -- is it clearly "HIS victory" or a more generic reference to "victory over religion." It's not like he was Jesus whose work allegedly did the job for us - although he does show us the way to do it ourselves..