Supernatural and the Senses

I am having a fascinating discussion with someone who is deep into believing in supernatural things. Kind of beyond the usual “religious” view into the realm of occultism etc. I honestly didn’t realize this person believed what they apparently do, and it was brought up as if it’s a common casual thing to do ….so I pressed her on it.

This whole discussion relates to the Epicurean idea that the senses are the standard for truth. This particular person believes she sees “things” like angels, spirits, demons etc. I truly don’t believe this person is mentally ill, but I must now evaluate this situation based in my knowledge of Epicurean Philosophy. Because we need to draw a distinct demarcation line in the sand between casual superstition, harmful beliefs and prudent reasoning.

Again, I truly don’t believe this person is clinically ill, but now I’m forced to analyze their behavior and their conclusions.

As Epicureans, we do not believe in supernatural anything. Full stop.

So any explanation must preclude supernaturalism to be the conclusion. So that leaves two options either the person is in fact Ill (with some sort of physio-chemical aberration in the brain) or this phenomena is a sort of social immaturity or imaginative delusion of superstitious idealism that has been allowed to prosper because society allows it to persist and eventually the person believes their imaginative false experiences are somehow relevant or true. Like believing a brief daydream of dragons flying through clouds has reality other than in your own mind. We know it’s just an imaginative daydream, but to others who hold these particular beliefs about spiritual realms etc. they may believe they have “insight” into these realms.

A delusion for a mentally ill person is “real” for them. As real as they cognitively can process that the experience is real and true, such as seeing things or hearing voices. That is a real phenomena in the chemical and physiological makeup of a person’s brain who has a diagnosis. But for someone who doesn’t have something affecting their neural processes “seeing” and “hearing” things is pure imagination.

And I will take the position that people who maintain these “beliefs” are socially immature or at worse fraudsters. I believe the person I’m speaking to now is in the socially immature camp, though they are well into their 50’s. They are claiming to see things that children might claim are invisible friends.

Where this is relevant is that we can see that the Epicurean standard of truth, a strong basis in reality and sensory data is critical for a person’s social and mental well being. Believing in supernaturalism, even casually, will lead to very different conclusions about reality and as with the person I’m speaking with, it separates us from each other by testifying that one of us is speaking truth while the other is lying.

At this point a person must use prudent judgement for the best to “correct” this person. Either by using frank speech to shock them out of their imaginings by letting them know they are in jeopardy of having their friends lose faith in their ability to perceive reality or simply to leave the person to their imaginings neither reinforcing them but also never speaking of them again. I guess it depends on the relationship a person has with the other.

As Torquatus relates in “On Ends”…

“Moreover, unless the constitution of the world is thoroughly understood, we shall by no means be able to justify the verdicts of our senses. Further, our mental perceptions all arise from our sensations; and if these are all to be true, as the system of Epicurus proves to us, then only will cognition and perception become possible.”

Seeing visual data or the lack of seeing such things as colors and claiming to see angels are very different. Colorblindness is a natural physiological condition that is evidentially effecting a percentage of the population. It’s not the same as “mental” illness like schizophrenia.

If a person dismisses judgement on this, it is in many ways denying there is a standard for truth. If I concede this person may ACTUALLY be seeing angels and they just don’t effect me…that opens up a massive world of confusion.

This is not my first go around with people like this, I’ve met people have claimed that they see ghosts, angels, spiritual guides etc. I just didn’t know this particular person believed it.

My question to them is very, very simple and the answer I get is one of a duality…that they simultaneously believe that there is a supernatural realm and they have access to it AND the natural world as we experience it is real and true. So a “normal” person may be living their life in this reality like the rest of us and also simultaneously hold absolutely shockingly bizarre beliefs that they “see” supernatural things.

This type of thing doesn’t come up much, but I can tell you I’ve met a handful of people that share these similar beliefs.

And if they don’t truly believe it and if they are attempting to minister to someone…that should make for a significant cognitive dilemma.

I’m of the mind I can just depart company with this person…it’s not worth my time to deep dive into their delusions. But because this isn’t the first time I’ve dealt with this type of thing it has caused me to really want to draw the line in the sand between what is casual belief in something supernatural and what is on the complete verge of madness. But again if the person doesn’t truly believe what they say they see…then we have an untrustworthy person.

My position is that there are two options…either the person is ill or that there is some sort of social and mental immaturity. Since a supernatural third position is impossible.

If the person is attempting to minister…and simultaneously doesn’t actually see or believe what they are saying, we have a whole other discussion about ethics in religion. And believe me…I believe that people do this exact thing all the time, fabricate things to maintain cohesion of belief.

SimonC absolutely…and your experience goes to show that this isn’t an isolated thing. Many, many people say they see and hear things that otherwise appear to be fabrications. For us it is simple to dismiss as fantasy, but for those who say these types of things and testify to their reality we have a problem…especially if it’s deeply cherished belief that is a part of their identity.

Agreed, my issue is that there are a good number of people just like the person I’m talking with. For example I know of another person who in a similar way is so deeply involved with psychics that she has altered actions in her life to follow what the psychics foretell…

Even further this can go into people getting detached from reality while perusing the internet and social media, believing unfounded things and altering their lives to fit what might as well be the same as religious fiction. And the line blurs even more.

I don’t suggest we have only Epicurean or secular minded friends…but there really needs to be a line drawn where people who perceive reality in vastly different ways must reconcile reality either by disassociation or direct ideological confrontation.

If I add the “internet” crowd to this number of detached people that believe in lizard people, deep underground bases and other “fringe” ideas and those people are those that are not using the canon as the standard of truth, the number of detached people would exponentially multiply.

In recent times in light of certain ideologies that seem to have taken hold among people, I’m way less inclined these days to let certain things pass by without notice. The supernaturalists are in reality a minor problem, but someone who believes certain apocalyptic eschatological narratives in a casual way may be much more inclined to believe fabrications they read online to “act” upon them in reality. So what I see is a bigger problem in society in general…casual unfounded beliefs in fantastic things can quickly turn into serious real life issues.

Kalosyni you have a very good way with people.