Don

Thanks for that. I find that in a group -- with mostly extroverts -- I sometimes talk compulsively, like I need to "fit in." When being quiet, and in a quiet mind, is what I want. So, I'm going to be quiet now, and check out Susan Cain.

Cain's book was a revelation for me. Specifically, she talked about introverts who can be gregarious at parties, great public speakers, etc., but who also get exhausted by that (even though they find it enjoyable!) and need alone time to "recharge their batteries." I was like "Hey! I recognize that person!"

I hope you enjoy it. I think she has some videos or TED Talks on her introvert research too if you don't want to read the whole book.

Thanks again, Don.

BTW, I got 17 out of 20 "true" on her quiz -- and two of the three "falses" were really borderline. Now I am going quiet.

So far, my favorite part of this philosophy is the celebration of friendships and community. When I left the church, the first thing I missed was that sense of community. Since 2017, I have made an effort to grow and maintain my friendships.

With that said, I am surprised that there is not more focus on friendships here. Unless I am missing something?

Quote from Randall Moose

With that said, I am surprised that there is not more focus on friendships here. Unless I am missing something?

One complication is that we're all spread across the world.

That said, Kalosyni and Cassius have led efforts to have more online social opportunities including book discussions, happy hours, monthly 20th gatherings, etc. Those have been wonderful opportunities to meet real people, have conversations, and establish friendships as far as one can across vast time zones. If one wants to call those acquaintances or friendships is a matter of semantics I suppose. I've personally felt welcomed here, and have shared, privately and publicly, tragedies and triumphs with friends I've made here. I also probably wouldn't have "stuck with" Epicureanism these past five years if not for this Garden. That's my personal response.

That said, if you're talking about expecting more discussions concerning friendship, I could see that being beneficial. I'm glad to hear that the philosophy has been beneficial in your friendships! That's the kind of practical application that is encouraged here. But I could see more threads on "what does Epicurean friendship mean in the modern world without Gardens available?" to be interesting and helpful.

That turned into a longer post than initially intended I hope that addresses your concern a bit.

Don summarizes the situation very well.

One aspect I would emphasize is that working together on joint projects here has been a great friendship-builder, and it is those people who have done that who I think get the most out of the forum.

If you have ideas Randall please be sure to share them.

Thanks y'all. I would like to see more resources here on how to cultivate and maintain friendships.

Speaking for myself as a 26 year old American, my peers rely on social media for their social lives. I have made an effort to find friends through hobbies such as D&D. The house I share with my roommates is the primary meet up spot for D&D, board games, MtG, CoD, movies, dinners, and nights around the fire pit.

I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"

Quote from Randall Moose

I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"

1. Do they give you pleasure?
2. Are they harming you in any way?
3. Do they do harm to others?

Answer those three questions about games and you're well on your way to answering your question.

It also sounds like you and your friends enjoy them together. Another plus.

That's my take.

Quote

I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"

I think that's a very good question, though it may be difficult to answer fully--although I think Don's answer settles the main point.

The Greeks were to a remarkable extent a gaming civilization--so much so that they literally set their calendars by it. They valued their games--Olympic, Pythian, Isthmian, Nemean, and other local affairs--for some of the same reasons we do; in the first place, because they helped to foster a unified and pan-Hellenic cultural identity. They aided in cultivating good relationships between City States.

In a remarkable passage in Xenophon's Anabasis, a mercenary army of 10,000 free Greeks that has just been marching for months overland across the whole length and breadth of hostile Persia finally reaches safety in the Greek colonies on the coast of the Black Sea, and they celebrate their immense good fortune by playing games! Extraordinary! I think if it were me I would have collapsed in a chair and not stirred for three months. The ended a forced march across difficult and dangerous terrain by celebrating with foot races, wrestling, discus and javelin.

So what did Epicurus think about all of this? On the question of Epicurus' alleged rejection of Greek culture Norman DeWitt has this to say;

Quote

This Platonic program consisted of music and gymnastic, inherited

from the Athenian past; of rhetoric, which had been introduced by the

sophists; and of dialectic and mathematics, especially geometry, which

were the addition of Plato himself.

Toward every component of this prevailing education the attitude of

Epicurus was determined by the nature of the objective adopted for his

own program. This objective was not the production of a good citizen

but a happy and contented man. For practical purposes this happiness

was defined as health of mind and health of body. The famous prayer

for mens Sana in corpore sano, “a sound mind in a sound body,” recom¬

mended by Juvenal, is genuine Epicureanism.

This being the case, there was no reason for rejecting physical training,

and approval of it was the easier not only because the laws required

it — and Epicurus recommended obedience to the laws — but also for the

reason that the amateur athlete and the citizen soldier were being

replaced by the professional athlete and the professional soldier. Thus

the rigors of the required exercises could be relaxed.

As for music, there need be little doubt that the approval of Epicurus

was enthusiastic. His own capacity for appreciating good music seems to

have been keen. It is told of him that he would arise early in the morning

and trudge to the theater to enjoy the performance

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And then are there the tabletop games of Ancient Greece, most of which were distinguished by the common feature of gambling on chance. I suspect that Epicurus would have cautioned against gambling, though of course I don't know that.

In any case, playing a game for the game's own sake is a very human pasttime, enjoyed among friends, and yielding pleasure--and for those reasons is very much worth doing. Play like the Greeks!

I agree with the above answers which in most general form comes down to "Do the games being you more pleasure than pain, all things considered?"

Maybe the greater concern than the games is over-reliance on social media for social interaction.

We definitely need to develop some material on:

1 - Practical tips on cultivation of real-life friendships.

2 - Practical tips on management of social media engagement.

At the very least we need to find ways to focus social media interactions to be mainly with real world friends rather than people so extended away from us that interaction with them is little more than as with AI or bots or caricatures of real people.

(Just updated my post 31 above with more detail. I see Randall is a night owl too.)

Quote from Cassius

I agree with the aboce answers which in most general form is "Do the games being you more pleasure than pain, all things considered?"

Maybe the greater concern than the games is over-reliance on social media for social interaction.

I hear this a lot and I tend to agree. I am still balancing social media and media in general in my own life. I was 8 when the first iPhone came out and I remember how much it changed our lives. In short, I know only a little of a life without the impact of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. I doubt I know the full extent of that impact. Whatever the case, I am working to spend more times with my friends, with us in the same room and without our faces lit by screens. Especially after experiencing the lockdowns. I'm figuring it out as I go.

I will add that "online gaming" can engender and preserve friendships that would otherwise wither. I know people that have maintained friendships from high school and college or created lifelong friends with online gaming. Even separated by miles and time zones, friends get together to play while at the same time talking and maintaining ties. They still get together in real life when possible, but online gaming is a platform that allows regular camaraderie.

Quote from Randall Moose

Thanks y'all. I would like to see more resources here on how to cultivate and maintain friendships.

Speaking for myself as a 26 year old American, my peers rely on social media for their social lives. I have made an effort to find friends through hobbies such as D&D. The house I share with my roommates is the primary meet up spot for D&D, board games, MtG, CoD, movies, dinners, and nights around the fire pit.

I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"

A KEY place (I think)! I need to go back and find my source, because I only have this scribble in my notes, but I recall that Eikas celebrations would have hosted a game called Kataktos, what I believe is ... basically ancient Beer Pong (with wine), so I think parlor games like darts, ping pong, and billiards are particularly appropriate. That said, I am a gamer, and I miss the days when card games and board games were more-widely-practiced forms of recreation, so games are key for me; that absolutely extends into the world of D&D, and digital gaming, and MMOs so long as they engender friendship.

Someone fact-check me on Kataktos though because I meant to bring it up, but I didn't leave myself a source.

An Epicurean style take on happiness I stumbled upon:

What actually makes us happy (axios.com)

Gotta love it:

>>Know what counts as connection. Focus on real-time communication, which isn't a text or posting on someone's social media feed. As primates, we're evolved for live conversations, which can be virtual.<<

>>Happiness doesn't mean dispelling all negative emotions, which are part of what make us human. "I think especially in the tough times we're dealing with, negative emotions are normative. We need to pay attention to them because they're signaling changes that we need to make," Santos says. "Happiness really is about a decent ratio of positive to negative emotions."<<

Quote from Cassius

Quote from smoothiekiwi

If a friendship will produce more pain in the long run (although that seems difficult to achieve), then we should end it, or at least de-attach us.

Or conclude either that (1) it is not a friendship at all, or (2) our definition of friendship needs reworking.

Agreed, even the Vatican sayings have a passage about toxic friendships. I don't think it unreasonable to expect your friends to be as good at being a friend as you are, so long as you forgive circumstance, as a good friend should.