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An Epicurean Study of Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics

  • Don
  • October 7, 2022 at 6:26 PM
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    Don
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    • October 7, 2022 at 6:26 PM
    • #1
    Epicurean Sage - An Epicurean Study of Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics
    This is an exploration of Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle through an Epicurean lens. The Aristotle translations used are by Martin Ostwald (1962, Liberal Arts…
    sites.google.com

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm starting an Epicuruean study of Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics. Instead of posting my 11-pages of notes here on the forum, I decided to just use a sub-page of my current website (see above). The opening page is a short intro with a link to my notes on Book 1.

    I do not plan to apply myself to this project in any kind of speedy manner. This is a curiosity project, a chance to engage with a text or at least ideas that Epicurus himself no doubt had access to and with which he probably wrestled when devising his own philosophy. I hope - at some point - to maybe put in more links to resources, etc., but that's a maybe. Please think of these notes - if you think of them at all :D - as first thoughts, reactions, etc. to a text I've been meaning to get around to for years! Enjoy the ride if you stop by the site!

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    • October 7, 2022 at 9:53 PM
    • #2

    I look forward to reading it. FWIW, For some reason the link doesn't seem to work on my phone, but works fine in a browser. Probably just me but if anyone else runs into that Don might like to know.

  • Godfrey
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    • October 7, 2022 at 11:34 PM
    • #3

    Thanks for posting these Don ! I've been meaning to read this for quite some time as well, but still haven't got around to it.

    One minor detail (correct me if I'm wrong): looking at the dates it appears that Aristotle died after Epicurus was born. Aristotle still would have been an aging (and soon, dead) superstar in relation to the young Epicurus however.

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    Don
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    • October 8, 2022 at 7:06 AM
    • #4
    Quote from Godfrey

    One minor detail (correct me if I'm wrong): looking at the dates it appears that Aristotle died after Epicurus was born. Aristotle still would have been an aging (and soon, dead) superstar in relation to the young Epicurus however

    Egads! Thank you!!! I always mess up the BCE's negative numbers!! I'll get that fixed!

    I wish we'd just do away with that and use... I don't know ... Kurzgesagt's "Human Era" (HE) reckoning and just count forward!

    12,023 Human Era Calendar
    Available only for a short time: the 12,023 Human Era Calendar is here! This year you can join us on a journey through the hidden worlds of the microcosm.11" x…
    shop-us.kurzgesagt.org

    They, only somewhat tongue in cheek, say we should just start arbitrarily reckoning dates from the beginning of settled agriculture 10,000 years BCE and count forward! So, we're living in 12,022 HE.

    In which case, Epicurus would have been born in 9,659 HE and Aristotle died in 9,678 HE! Well, look at that 9678 is after 9659! How easy was that! ^^

    It also makes it much easier to see at a glance how long ago it was from us when we're talking about something that happened in "BCE" dates.

  • Kalosyni
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    • October 8, 2022 at 9:10 AM
    • #5

    I feel the sense of "domination" of all of history, and the undercurrent of Christianity continues with the use of BC/AD. I would say we all need to stand up for freedom from religion by using neutral year signifiers. Unfortunately "HE" may be too big of a shift for many people, and of course Christians would not go for it at all. (although I can image that people of other faiths would support it).

    And there at times seems to be little use of BCE and CE -- Wikipedia doesn't use it.

    Quote

    Style Guides on Religious Neutrality

    The choice may be up to you and your style guide. The 17th edition of the "Chicago Manual of Style (published in 2017) suggests that the choice is up to the writer and should be flagged only if the customs of a specific field or community are being violated:

    Quote
    "Many authors use BC and AD because they are familiar and conventionally understood. Those who want to avoid reference to Christianity are free to do so."

    In terms of secular journalism, the 2019 version of the Associated Press Stylebook uses B.C. and A.D. (using the periods); as does the fourth edition of the UPI Style Guide, published in 2004. The use of BC and BCE is commonly found in articles concerning academic and lay historical research—including ThoughtCo.com—but not exclusively.

    Despite rumors to the contrary, the entire BBC has not dropped the use of AD/BC, but its Religion & Ethics department, which prides itself on providing religion-neutral stories, has:

    Quote
    "As the BBC is committed to impartiality, it is appropriate that we use terms that do not offend or alienate non-Christians. In line with modern practice, B.C.E./C.E. (Before Common Era/Common Era) are used as a religiously neutral alternative to B.C./A.D."

    https://www.thoughtco.com/when-to-use-ad-or-ce-116687

    (Anyway, just had to throw this in).

    Don, looking forward to reading your notes on Nichomachean Ethics!

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    • October 8, 2022 at 9:39 AM
    • #6

    I, too, have long been an enthusiast of the Human or, as I prefer, the Holocene Calendar. It has the feel of a very deep sense of time.

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    • October 8, 2022 at 10:23 AM
    • #7

    If the ancients had used it more themselves I would be perfectly willing to us A.U.C. Unfortunately for the Roman substitute I am not very good at remembering sequences of consuls.

    Ab urbe condita

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to navigationJump to searchThis article is about the year numbering system. For the book, see Ab urbe condita (Livy).
    300px-Antoninianus-Pacatianus-1001-RIC_0006cf.jpg
    Antoninianus of Pacatian, usurper of Roman emperor Philip in 248. It reads ROMAE AETER[NAE] AN[NO] MIL[LESIMO] ET PRIMO, 'To eternal Rome, in its one thousand and first year.'

    220px-Anno_ab_urbe_condita_%28medieval%29.png
    Anno ab urbe condita, rubricated and with a decorated initial, from the medieval Chronicle of Saint Pantaleon.

    Ab urbe condita (Latin: [ab ˈʊrbɛ ˈkɔndɪtaː] 'from the founding of the City'), or anno urbis conditae (Latin: [ˈan.no̯‿ˈʊrbɪs ˈkɔndɪtae̯]; 'in the year since the city's founding'),[note 1] abbreviated as AUC or AVC, expresses a date in years since 753 BC, the traditional founding of Rome.[1][2] It is an expression used in antiquity and by classical historians to refer to a given year in Ancient Rome. In reference to the traditional year of the foundation of Rome, the year 1 BC would be written AUC 753, whereas AD 1 would be AUC 754. The foundation of the Roman Empire in 27 BC would be AUC 727.

    Usage of the term was more common during the Renaissance, when editors sometimes added AUC to Roman manuscripts they published, giving the false impression that the convention was commonly used in antiquity. In reality, the dominant method of identifying years in Roman times was to name the two consuls who held office that year.[3] In late antiquity, regnal years were also in use, as in Roman Egypt during the Diocletian era after AD 293, and in the Byzantine Empire from AD 537, following a decree by Justinian.

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    • October 8, 2022 at 10:28 AM
    • #8
    Quote from Don

    That section also shows that Aristotle is NOT a fan of the emotions, Greek παθη pathe. Epicurus includes the pathe (feelings, emotions) of pleasure and pain as part of his Canon of Truth! Aristotle simply says they can’t be trusted and young people get led astray by them. The two couldn’t be farther apart!

    Starting around 1095b, Aristotle appears to stake his flag against pleasure as the Good:

    “The common run of people and the most vulgar identify [the highest good] with pleasure, and for that reason are satisfied with a life of enjoyment…a life suitable to cattle.”

    LOL! Oh, a life of enjoyment! Perish the thought!

    He goes on to say that there are really three notable kinds of life:

    • The life of enjoyment/pleasure
    • The political life (remember, life in service to the polis)
    • The contemplative life

    However, Aristotle continues to refine his definition of the good and says “the good is a man’s own possession which cannot easily be taken away from him.” It seems to me something could not be more one’s own than one’s feelings of pleasure (and pain).

    Display More

    This part reminds me of one of the things that I think is most important to stress early and often: that "pleasure" is a sweeping term that embraces every possible experience in life that we find desirable in itself. If it is desirable in itself, it is pleasurable. Once it is established that we are not just talking about immediate sensory stimulation it seems to me that the superiority of the Epicurean position is much more clear. Why would anyone do anything if they do not receive benefit from it, and what is "benefit" if not pleasure (under the Epicurean perspective in which all feelings are either pleasure or pain).

    I think if I were in a debate with Aristotelians or any of them, that's a point I would want to stake out almost immediately before going in any other direction.

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    Don
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    • October 14, 2022 at 6:27 AM
    • #9

    Update: About half way through Book 2's commentary. I didn't say I was going through it quickly ^^

    Epicurean Sage - Nichomachean Ethics: Book 2
    < Back to Book 1 Commentary In Book 2, Aristotle starts to fill in some details of what he means by “virtue.” Aristotle claims virtue is of two kinds: 1)…
    sites.google.com

    My favorite discovery so far in this book:

    Quote

    “An index of our dispositions is afforded by the pleasure or pain that accompanies our actions. A man is temperate (σώφρων “sophron”) if he abstains from bodily pleasures and finds this abstinence itself enjoyable (χαίρω “khairo”), profligate if he feels it irksome; he is brave if he faces danger with pleasure or at all events without pain, cowardly if he does so with pain.”

    By Zeus!! Even in his annoyance with pleasure he says that the temperate person “finds this abstinence itself enjoyable”!! Finding something enjoyable IS PLEASURE, Aristotle!! In fact, the “enjoyable” part in that translation is, in fact, the word khairon which is directly related to one of the “kinetic pleasures” (khara) noted by Epicurus as a pleasure deriving from “κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ” “moving activity” (notice energeia!)!! Sorry, Aristotle, but you can’t have it both ways. Pleasure is a danger, but you can take pleasure in temperance?? Go on…

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    • October 14, 2022 at 7:58 AM
    • #10

    Very good point!

    Even Christianity ultimately grounds itself in the desirability of eternal life, and that surely means finding pleasure in the reward. I grant that religions or viewpoints (Buddhism, etc?) that seem to call for the extinguishment of individuality or personality do appear to be elevating something other than the experience of pleasure as the goal, but those seem to me to fit in the "better to never have been born" category which I would argue most sane people would reject out of hand (and surely Epicurus rejected that too).

    Once we make clear that "pleasure" is a sweeping term that embraces every form of desirable experience (and I think Epicurus is very clear about this) then it seems to me that setting "pleasure" as the goal of life is a compelling argument that is hard to reject by anyone except by rejecting life itself.

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    Don
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    • October 14, 2022 at 8:55 AM
    • #11
    Quote from Cassius

    except by rejecting life itself.

    Which is basically what Christianity does: this life only counts for what your afterlife - you're "going home" life - is like. Bah! Carpe *this* diem.

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    • October 14, 2022 at 9:23 AM
    • #12

    Yes, I agree with your observation. But for purposes of persuading those of them who may be "well-constituted" or "well-disposed" towards us, I think we probably have different paths of argument for the different groups.

    Most every Judeo-Christian I have ever run into, if you push them hard enough, admits that they are following the religion because they want eternal happiness for themselves and their friends, not just because they feel a general duty to be religious.

    But for those viewpoints (and I think true Stoicism fits into this, if their ultimate viewpoint is the merging of individual consciousness into divine fire) that seem to contemplate the eventual loss of individuality, I would say they are in a much worse place and would require a different approach for any hope of success in opening their eyes. Lots of them are superficial, but to the extent they really understand their viewpoints and buy into it, they are much worse lost.

    So I guess I am saying I see the root of our attachment to life as being our love of it and our desire not to lose it. For this purpose I'm abstracting this life and any other life and giving them the benefit of the doubt that if someone loves "life" then they are open to seeing how short it is and how best to live it.


    But for those who wish they had never been born or wish to cease to exist, and buy deeply into that argument, seems to me that's a much harder nut to crack.

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    Don
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    • October 14, 2022 at 9:49 AM
    • #13

    The thought that comes to mind is: is it our responsibility to convert or to simply evangelize. I don't think those are the same thing. Epicurus seemed to hold a dim view in some regards of the hoi polloi. He made his philosophy available but he wasn't handing out leaflets and screaming on the street corner.

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    • October 14, 2022 at 10:01 AM
    • #14

    Quote from Don:

    Quote

    Starting around 1095b, Aristotle appears to stake his flag against pleasure as the Good:

    “The common run of people and the most vulgar identify [the highest good] with pleasure, and for that reason are satisfied with a life of enjoyment…a life suitable to cattle.”

    LOL! Oh, a life of enjoyment! Perish the thought!

    He goes on to say that there are really three notable kinds of life:

    • The life of enjoyment/pleasure
    • The political life (remember, life in service to the polis)
    • The contemplative life

    Could we correctly say that Epicureanism actually combines:


    a) a life of enjoyment/pleasure

    -AND-

    c) the contemplative life (contemplating the nature of things)

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    • October 14, 2022 at 10:05 AM
    • #15
    Quote from Don

    The thought that comes to mind is: is it our responsibility to convert or to simply evangelize. I don't think those are the same thing. Epicurus seemed to hold a dim view in some regards of the hoi polloi. He made his philosophy available but he wasn't handing out leaflets and screaming on the street corner.

    Absolutely right. I am not sure that the Epicureans thought we have a "responsibility" to do either one. My reading of Lucretius and Diogenes both is that they had a benevolent general interest in "getting the word out" for those who were inclined to listen, so that might be akin to "evangelizing." But I definitely don't think they saw a responsibility to "convert" and they specifically seemed to acknowledged that not everyone was "well constituted" (seems I remember that in both Oinoanda and in Diogenes Laertius) so I bet they were clear-eyed about not converting everyone.

    However it enhances our happiness to have more friends, and helps make us more secure if we at least don't have enemies (unnecessarily have enemies I guess I should say), so I see that as the primary way to describe the motivation to talk about the philosophy with others.

    So definitely I would not scream on a street corner. Would I hand out leaflets (which appears to be exactly what the Roman Epicureans were doing)? Probably so, but I would be sure i did it unobtrusively and just mainly made them available.

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    • October 14, 2022 at 10:07 AM
    • #16
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Could we correctly say that Epicureanism actually combines:


    a) a life of enjoyment/pleasure

    -AND-

    c) the contemplative life (contemplating the nature of things)

    I would say that the way to express that would have to be that Epicureanism teaches the pursuit of a life of enjoyment/pleasure, of which the pleasures of contemplation are pleasures and therefore are included in the goal of enjoyment/pleasure.

    The word "and" is pretty easy to read as "separate goals" in that context and I would think that implication would need to be avoided.

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    • October 14, 2022 at 10:23 AM
    • #17
    Quote from Cassius

    So I guess I am saying I see the root of our attachment to life as being our love of it and our desire not to lose it. For this purpose I'm abstracting this life and any other life and giving them the benefit of the doubt that if someone loves "life" then they are open to seeing how short it is and how best to live it.


    But for those who wish they had never been born or wish to cease to exist, and buy deeply into that argument, seems to me that's a much harder nut to crack.

    I just posted about both getting help of a therapist and finding more meaning in life, in this thread:

    Post

    Overcome Suicidal Ideation and Find Greater Meaning in Life

    Occassionally on this forum and on the podcasts the topic of suicide, and also chosing to end one's own life when terminally ill, etc. has come up. And I feel the need to bring up and share some "therapeutics".

    Given that we believe that we only have this one life to live (no-rebirth, no second chance) this means that ending one's life is rarely ever chosen unless out of great necessity ( @Cassius I know there are sources for this in Epicurean writings but can't remember off hand).

    Ideally I…
    Kalosyni
    October 14, 2022 at 10:19 AM
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    Don
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    • October 15, 2022 at 11:51 AM
    • #18
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Quote from Don:

    Quote

    Starting around 1095b, Aristotle appears to stake his flag against pleasure as the Good:

    “The common run of people and the most vulgar identify [the highest good] with pleasure, and for that reason are satisfied with a life of enjoyment…a life suitable to cattle.”

    LOL! Oh, a life of enjoyment! Perish the thought!

    He goes on to say that there are really three notable kinds of life:

    • The life of enjoyment/pleasure
    • The political life (remember, life in service to the polis)
    • The contemplative life

    Could we correctly say that Epicureanism actually combines:


    a) a life of enjoyment/pleasure

    -AND-

    c) the contemplative life (contemplating the nature of things)

    Display More
    Epicurean Sage - ...enjoy themselves more than others in contemplation
    Hicks: He will take more delight than other men in state festivals. Yonge: ...and he will find more pleasure than other men in speculations. Yonge appears to…
    sites.google.com
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    Don
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    • October 18, 2022 at 11:51 PM
    • #19

    Okay, I've finished up my take on Book 2:

    Epicurean Sage - Nichomachean Ethics: Book 2
    < Back to Book 1 Commentary In Book 2, Aristotle starts to fill in some details of what he means by “virtue.” Aristotle claims virtue is of two kinds: 1)…
    sites.google.com

    I had to break it up into 2 parts (Part 1 and Part 2). There's a lot going on, but, as you'll see I've come away thinking "I'm not seeing much more than obfuscation and some nice-looking word salad made up mostly of celery and lettuce and not much nutrition."

    I'm still finding it interesting, especially Aristotle tying himself up in knots trying to talk trash about pleasure.

    Enjoy.

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    • October 19, 2022 at 1:41 AM
    • #20

    Thanks Don , interesting reading!

    I really appreciate having your distillation of the material: I intend to read at least this much Aristotle someday, but somehow that someday keeps slipping further into the future. Obviously, the perfect time to read it will be at that time when the present is the mean between the past and the future, weighted toward the future because there is the potential for more people to live in the future than have lived in the past, and therefore the median in time of the combined intellect of the human race will likewise be weighted toward the future. Hmmm, some quick mental calculations indicate that that median point will be well after I'm dead! Maybe I shouldn't weight it! I'll have to find an Aristotelian to help me figure out what to do!

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