Nate have you ever interacted with Panagiotis as I referenced up the thread? We could also email Christos Yapijakis and ask him- maybe when you get as far as you think you and Don can.
I will check to see if Pan answered my message.
Nate have you ever interacted with Panagiotis as I referenced up the thread? We could also email Christos Yapijakis and ask him- maybe when you get as far as you think you and Don can.
I will check to see if Pan answered my message.
This would also imply that the "annual celebration of the 20th" referenced in philodemus's poem as the invitation to Piso was, in fact, the *annual* celebration of the 20th was in fact the one celebrations Epicurus's Birthday on Gamelion's 20. That resolves the "annual" vs "monthly" conundrum with that poem!
We could also email Christos Yapijakis and ask him
What exactly are we asking him? And that's not meant to be snarky (I see it could be read that way).
No snarkiness issue at all. It's not like anyone needs anyone else's approval or that we are planning on taking some particular immediate action. What I am thinking is that I know for example that Pan has studied this and it would be just to compare thoughts. Not sure if Christos has or not. Mainly thinking that once you and Nate settle on what you think is a final summary that I will just ask them to take a look at it and see if they have any comments. I am thinking Nate says he is still thinking it through (?). And I think you indicated you might do another summary too? I will point them to the full thread but if there is an obvious conclusion summary will link to that too. So in sum just another situation where more eyes is generally good.
By Zeus, I'm finding some REALLY good stuff in French and German academic papers. It looks to me like Epicurus's birthday was accepted as Gamelion 20 since at least 1968 in a paper by Karl Alpers, "Epikurus Geburtstag"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24813898
That paper is cited by a French paper in 2016
Déniz Alcorac Alonso. Offrandes funéraires à Thespies : les ἐνπορίδια « sacrifices par le feu » dans IThesp. 215. In: Revue des Études Grecques, tome 129, fascicule 1, Janvier-juin 2016. pp. 63-83.
DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/reg.2016.8399
Offrandes funéraires à Thespies : les ἐνπορίδια « sacrifices par le feu » dans IThesp. 215 - Persée
I'm still digging around for how Gamelion 7 fits in, and I'm trying to compile all these corroborating papers and evidence. This may take a little longer than I thought! My utter lack of fluency in French and German doesn't help!
So, while I am definitely not the first to connect τῃ προτέρᾳ δεκατῃ to the 20th, it's heartening to see the corroborations start to line up!
LOL! Mystery solved to, I think, my satisfaction!
In the short note by D.M. Lewis:
Two Days
Author(s): D. M. Lewis
Source: The Classical Review, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Dec., 1969), pp. 271-272
Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of The Classical Association
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/707723
Accessed: 27-11-2022 13:19 UTC
Lewis, along with Alpers, is cited in that French paper. Lewis lays out an easy, elegant solution to the multiple dates problem: Gamelion 7, 10, 20.
The Gamelion 7 is from Apollodorus, cited by Diogenes. However, it has been demonstrated that the only month & date birthdays Apollodorus gives are for Socrates and Plato. He gives Epicurus's as occuring in Gamelion with a gloss notation of 7 in the text. Gamelion is simply noted as the **7th month** of the Athenian calendar! It's not a date!
The Gamelion 10 date is simply a misinterpretation of πρότερα δέκατη in the Greek as we've been going over and is corroborated by multiple sources now.
Gamelion 20 is Epicurus's Birthday. The "customary" in the Greek is now interpreted by me (and others) to refer to the fact that it was customary to celebrate his birthday annually with certain rites and ceremonies, but that the commemoration of himself and Metrodorus was monthly and used as the regular assembly of his students and members of the school.
All this makes the most sense of all this conflicting data. I'm convinced.
If we want to celebrate the spirit of Epicurus's Will, we should celebrate his birthday on January 20 every year.
If we want a movable feast, we use Eikadistes 's calculations using the online calendar.
The Gamelion 7 is from Apollodorus, cited by Diogenes. However, it has been demonstrated that the only month & date birthdays Apollodorus gives are for Socrates and Plato. He gives Epicurus's as occuring in Gamelion with a gloss notation of 7 in the text. Gamelion is simply noted as the **7th month** of the Athenian calendar! It's not a date!
Can we confirm that Apollodorus was Diogenes' only source for original Epicurus' birthdate?
I am curious – if we can demonstrate that Epicurus' actual birthdate is only every attributed to Gamelion 20 (and that the 7th and 10th are misinterpretations) is it the case that (a) we have no record of the actual date of Epicurus' birth and that we only have attestation to the ceremonial celebration with friends? Or (b) was he, coincidentally, born on Eikas?
Can we confirm that Apollodorus was Diogenes' only source for original Epicurus' birthdate?
That's the only reference he gives:
Quote from Diogenes Laertius Book 10.14He was born, according to Apollodorus in his Chronology, in the third year of the 109th Olympiad, in the archonship of Sosigenes,26 on the seventh day of the month Gamelion,27 in the seventh year after the death of Plato.
***
(a) we have no record of the actual date of Epicurus' birth and that we only have attestation to the ceremonial celebration with friends? Or (b) was he, coincidentally, born on Eikas?
It seems to me that the evidence points to Epicurus actually being born on Gamelion 20 and that was the reason the 20th was chosen as the monthly assembly date, too. I don't think it is coincidental. I think that's the reason it was picked.
Now, whether Metrodorus was also born, or died, or was born *in* Gamelion or some other reason being why the two were both commorateted on the *monthly* 20th, there's no way to tell for now. But, from all evidence I see, Gamelion 20 was an annual celebration with remembrance offerings for the *actual* birthday of Epicurus. And that was what Piso was being invited to by Philodemus.
Oh, and due to the fact that Metrodorus would have been appointed Epicurus's successor had he not died before Epicurus, it makes sense to me that Epicurus wanted to share a commemoration day with him. It seems that Epicurus losing Metrodorus would have been (to Epicurus) akin to the Garden losing Epicurus himself.
Well just fwiw after reading all this, I would say (1) since no one appointed any of us arbiter of anything other than what we do ourselves, (2) it is desirable to have a uniform yearly date as the best celebration date, and (3) that January 20 is the closest date to the "real" birthday, then:
(1) For commemoration purposes it makes sense to honor the decision of the Epicureans to celebrate on the nearest 20th (Jan 20) but that
(2) for the sake of reminding everyone of the calendar issues it would be good to keep up to date a chart such as Nate is working on so that those of us who are most "fundamentalist" will be able to observe every year how the calculation actually worked and consider the weather etc of the period as the closest approximation to what they experienced at the time of the birth of Epicurus.
That should take care of our needs and we can leave for further discussion the burning question of whether our birth sign friends would consider Epicurus to have been a Capricorn, Aquarius, or Pisces!
Oh, and due to the fact that Metrodorus would have been appointed Epicurus's successor had he not died before Epicurus, it makes sense to me that Epicurus wanted to share a commemoration day with him. It seems that Epicurus losing Metrodorus would have been (to Epicurus) akin to the Garden losing Epicurus himself.
There's this, too:
Understanding the Birthday Paradox – BetterExplained
Or it could even have been that Metrodorus had his birthday on a different month's 20th. Hard to tell.
(1) For commemoration purposes it makes sense to honor the decision of the Epicureans to celebrate on the nearest 20th (Jan 20) but that
... honor the decision of *Epicurus*...
Scholarship seems to reinforce my findings that Oympiad 109, Year 3, Gamelion 20 = January 24-25th 341 BCE.
“He was born on the twentieth of the month of Gamelion (24 January 341)74 […] 74The debate over the exact date of his birth was definitively resolved by Alpers 1968.” (Algra, The Cambridge History of Hellenistic Philosophy 43)
“Date of the birth of Epicurus, according to Apollodorus […] that is, under the seventh archon from the archon of the year of the death of Plato, Theophilus. The tenth of Gamelion however, January 14, and the twentieth, January 24, are also assigned as the dates of birth.” (Origines Kalendariæ Hellenicæ; or, the history of the primitive calendar among the Greeks, before and after the legislation of Solon, Volume 2, 97; 1862)
That should take care of our needs and we can leave for further discussion the burning question of whether our birth sign friends would consider Epicurus to have been a Capricorn, Aquarius, or Pisces!
I've been thinking, it's like expressing today as "the evening of Sagittarius the 6th, Super Bowl 61."
.. and, for the record, all dates in Aquarius correspond with the range of possible dates for Gamelion Eikas.
I think of all the three signs it is indeed likely Epicurue would be most happy to be associated with Aquarius and the Fifth Dimension song
Except for maybe the "mystic crystal revelations"a lot of the other words fit.
Sorry to muddy the water but Pan has responded back to me:
Hi from Athens.
Panagiotis
28 Jan 2023
-------------------
We have quite a long thread but scrolling back to Nate's chart this is not one of the proposed solutions, or is it?
Honestly, I'm not as concerned with the floating Julian date as I am with nailing down Gamelion 20. And that's confirmed to my satisfaction. In light of that, celebrating annually on January 20 makes the most sense to me since that gets closest to the spirit of Epicurus's Will because (and I'm stating these as facts but anyone is welcome to contest if they like):
Trying to pin down an exact Julian date in modern times for an event that took place 2,000+ years in the past is fraught with danger. In some ways, it's a "how many angels can dance on a pin" question. Even saying something like "Julius Caesar died on March 15" because he was assassinated on the Idēs of "March" is, at best, a rough approximation and convenient shorthand.
But don't misunderstand me! I think it's a fascinating exercise, and I fully support the idea of celebrating a movable observance of Epicurus's Birthday annually. I think that's a very cool exercise, and that's why I've "accepted" the Hellenic Month Established Per Athens website calculations as "good enough" for me on that count:
HMEPA: Hellenic Month Established Per Athens temporary
It's at least used by a modern Hellenic pagan group to celebrate their festivals, so if they are confident to use it for their re-constituted religion, I'm happy to use it for my purposes.
With the intercalated days and missing lists of Archons and the ancients' adding in days when the needed/wanted, it is well nigh impossible to say "this ancient event happened on March 15 and simply could NEVER have happened on March 14 or 16 in 44 BCE!! Furthermore, in 2022, that date exactly corresponds to March 16!!" It can't be done. Like I said, I think this is a fascinating, intriguing, enjoyable intellectual exercise, but there's no way - to my mind - that anyone is going to be 100% iron-clad *right* in these calculations.
For me, January 20 is the best date to celebrate the Founder's Birthday that respects the ancient tradition in keeping with Epicurus's wishes as set down in his will. We could honor his wishes and establish a custom for modern Epicureans by observing the Annual 20th on that date.
28 Jan 2023
-------------------
We have quite a long thread but scrolling back to Nate's chart this is not one of the proposed solutions, or is it?
This is the number Don originally came up with in the original post, but I did not, and I do not know how he did. I calculate that Gamelion 20 this year is the 227th day of an Attic year that began on June 29-30th 2022 with an extra month of Poseideon, so I believe the Gamelion 20 this Attic year will fall on February 11-12th 2023.
Though, I am curious, because if I'm missing something, my chart is based on limited information.
Trying to pin down an exact Julian date in modern times for an event that took place 2,000+ years in the past is fraught with danger. In some ways, it's a "how many angels can dance on a pin" question. Even saying something like "Julius Caesar died on March 15" because he was assassinated on the Idēs of "March" is, at best, a rough approximation and convenient shorthand.
[...]
With the intercalated days and missing lists of Archons and the ancients' adding in days when the needed/wanted, it is well nigh impossible to say "this ancient event happened on March 15 and simply could NEVER have happened on March 14 or 16 in 44 BCE!! Furthermore, in 2022, that date exactly corresponds to March 16!!" It can't be done. Like I said, I think this is a fascinating, intriguing, enjoyable intellectual exercise, but there's no way - to my mind - that anyone is going to be 100% iron-clad *right* in these calculations.
Ultimately, I agree with Don that it is almost impossible to nail down any ancient dates with confidence. The Attic calendar was not meant to be an objective measurement of time, but simply a day-to-day, month-to-month tool that was regularly changed to accommodate the needs of the populace.
Still, I would like to know how you guys (and Panagiotis) came up with January 28th 2023.
Don before I go back to Pan can you summarize where you are currently or point me to the right post?
Gamelion, 2nd year of the 700th Olympiad
Gamelion 7 is January 28.
That was my initial take, but I firmly believe that's now wrong in light of the misinterpretation of Apollodorus' reference in Diogenes Laertius per Alpers, Lewis, and others. Epicurus was not born on Gamelion 7. He was born in the 7th month of the Attic calendar, Gamelion. Apollodorus doesn't give a day.
According to the website, Gamelion 20, 2nd year of the 700th Olympiad, will be Feb. 10/11, 2023.