The Art of Frugal Hedonism

    First thoughts, random:

    Being frugal does NOT mean ascetic or stingy or anything negative.

    It takes practice to be a "frugal hedonist".

    It means being aware of what you're actually spending YOUR time and money on.

    Are you actually taking pleasure in what you spend time and money on.

    Don't get caught up with instant gratification: instead of "pulling the lever for cheese" (classic mouse experiment metaphor), try "walking to cheese mountain, befriend the cheese miners, etc."

    Relish: REALLY experience your activities. Take time to actually taste that cup of coffee. Take pleasure in the details of your life.

    My note: I think frugal hedonist is a good description of Epicurus's lifestyle, much better than the ascetic he's made out to be.

    Looking forward to reading more.

    Quote

    Keep us posted. Can't help seeing that cover and thinking of Prufrock: 'Do I dare to eat a peach?/ I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.'

    And something about lobsters, though I can't remember what just now...

    Quote from Don

    My note: I think frugal hedonist is a good description of Epicurus's lifestyle, much better than the ascetic he's made out to be.

    My thoughts: Frugality in an Epicurean context could mean to focus on one's senses and impressions, rather than pursuing foreign ideas of what happiness is made of. Leaving things behind can help to focus on our measuring instruments and on what makes us happy personally.

    I can tell you from my actual holidays, touched by a thousand beautiful impressions a day. Eating an elaborated meal or driving a cool car couldn't add anything to my happiness. The openness of my senses already fills up the cup to its fullest.

    Frugality could also teach us about the limits we're able to live with and therefore how to improve resilience.

    In the end I would argue, it's not about frugality, but pursuing elemental features of ourselves.

    I agree with virtually every practical consideration stated in the thread above, but I want to repeat a statement I just madein another thread:


    As usual I think it's a bad idea to try to come up with a one size fits all rule. I am haven' previously made this comment in the "frugal hedonism" thread, because I see the value in explaining words. But in the end I think the best way to convey this analysis is simply to call it "Epicurean" - and gradually begin the long crawl out of the box that we are in due to the dominance (and our acceptance) of other people's paradigms.


    Unfortunately we don't have the ability to claim that our definition of "frugal" or "hedonism" is the correct one. But the word that I do think we should claim, and define as clearly for everyone as we can, is "Epicurean."

    FWIW...

    Diocles in the third book of his Epitome speaks of them as living a very simple and frugal life (DL 10.11)

    Διοκλῆς δ᾽ ἐν τῇ τρίτῃ τῆς ἐπιδρομῆς φησιν εὐτελέστατα καὶ λιτότατα διαιτώμενοι.

    εὐτελέστατα

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, εὐτελ-ής

    λιτότατα

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λι_τός

    Quote from Cassius

    I agree with virtually every practical consideration stated in the thread above, but I want to repeat a statement I just madein another thread:


    As usual I think it's a bad idea to try to come up with a one size fits all rule. I am haven' previously made this comment in the "frugal hedonism" thread, because I see the value in explaining words. But in the end I think the best way to convey this analysis is simply to call it "Epicurean" - and gradually begin the long crawl out of the box that we are in due to the dominance (and our acceptance) of other people's paradigms.


    Unfortunately we don't have the ability to claim that our definition of "frugal" or "hedonism" is the correct one. But the word that I do think we should claim, and define as clearly for everyone as we can, is "Epicurean."

    I posted over "in another thread," too, but thought this needed a response here as well.

    If I go down a rabbit hole, apologies aforehand, but, just wondering which "practical considerations" are you agreeing with (just to verify and for clarity)?

    So, how would you define the three terms "frugal," "hedonism" and "Epicurean" in the context of this thread/discussion?

    That excerpt from Diogenes Laertius quotes Diocles as saying the Epicureans lived "a very simple and frugal life" εὐτελέστατα καὶ λιτότατα διαιτώμενοι. Those two words (linked above to LSJ) convey living a life that includes things that are "easily paid for" (which I take to mean "living within one's means") and "simple, inexpensive, frugal" or, "metaphorically, of style, plain, simple, unadorned." Those words, coupled with the modern word "hedonism" (not coined to refer to philosophy until 1828), to me provide "frugal hedonism" as an apt description. Not an exhaustive one or even one without a few hiccups, but an adequate starting point to describe Epicurus's lifestyle.. in keeping with my "bread and water simply means 'take pleasure in the everyday'."

    When you say things like...

    Quote from Cassius

    "Unfortunately we don't have the ability to claim that our definition of "frugal" or "hedonism" is the correct one,"

    ...I'm not even sure I understand the point you're trying to make. (Okay, I re-read that, and it *reads* harsher than I meant it... but I don't know a better way to express my confusion.) It seems to me that Epicurus encouraged people to use words in a way that was readily understandable and not to parse and nitpick. Granted, he never called himself a "hedonist." That didn't even exist as a philosophy term until the 19th century. But the "basic" definition is someone who regards pleasure as the primary motivator of human behavior. "Frugal" might be a little fuzzy in meaning but we have a grasp that it means things like living within your means, not spending extravagantly, etc. To me, "frugal hedonism" conveys what Epicurus was conveying throughout his texts. It is an antidote to the ascetic stereotype that is so prevalent in pop culture and academia. It's certainly not a perfect phrase, but it moves toward a more balanced portrayal... although let's get through more of the book and maybe I'll have a different opinion later ^^

    I always find myself of two minds when Don and Cassius discuss this. It definitely feels odd to start off by describing Epicurus with a term people commonly associate with something else and then tack on--'but not in the familiar sense.' It risks sounding like, 'he's a gastroenterologist, but not like any gastroenterologist you've ever met.' It's what leads to the charge that he's a hedonist in name only. But then if you don't call him a hedonist, then you risk making it sound like the goal isn't pleasure. Not to mention that he does the same thing himself--he identifies the aim as pleasure, then complains that people misunderstand what he means, so he tries to clear it up.

    I'll be curious, Don, to find out whether 'frugal hedonism' ends up weighing in on the other stuff--like, you could be a frugal hedonist and still await your heavenly reward or be a frugal hedonist and still think the death of a child is part of a well-ordered cosmos.

    As a related anecdote, my partner and I are very different people with entirely different skill sets who thankfully share the actually important commitments, and I remember when I was explaining the basics of Epicureanism to him, he said, 'Oh, I think I watched an interview with an Epicurean on an episode of Cheap RV Living.' So I watched it and thought, 'Well, I can see why he would think that.' Especially when they talk about community, death, and memories.

    I would stress that many of these back and forths are to me hypotheticals. I can easily imagine a presentation on Epicurus that would be entirely appropriate and go like this:

    1. Epicurus was a hedonist in that he believed pleasure to be the greatest good BUT he did not always seek every choice that might produce pleasure.
    2. Epicurus held that tranquility is a great pleasure BUT not that tranquility is the goal toward which all else aims.
    3. Epicurus taught that pain was "evil" BUT he did not teach that pain should always be avoided.
    4. Epicurus was an atheist BUT not the kind you think - he believed that gods do exist.
    5. Epicurus believed that gods exist BUT not the kind of gods you think.
    6. Epicurus was an empiricist of a sort BUT many of his most important conclusions were based on deductive reasoning about things he never personally experienced himself.
    7. Epicurus held many positions that will strike you as Utilitarian BUT he did not believe in "the greatest good for the greatest number."
    8. Epicurus was highly skeptical of claims of authority BUT he took strong positions himself about things that he believed to be provably true.
    9. Epicurus was in many ways a frugalist BUT not always and it's important to know the exceptions.
    10. Epicurus believed in virtue BUT not that it is an end in itself.
    11. Epicurus held that "all sensations are true" BUT not that every sensation is accurate to all the facts.
    12. Epicurus held that death is nothing to us BUT not that the manner and time of death is not significant.
    13. Epicurus held that friendship is tremendously important for our happiness BUT Epicurus was not an "altruist" as that word is generally understood.

    And I bet we could go on and on and on, and in the right circumstances, this is a probably a good way to introduce the topics. But is it the only way? Certainly not. Is it the best way? Well, in some circumstances yes, but it isn't the way (for example) that Epicurus himself or Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda organized their presentations, and in a better world (?) we shouldn't have to and won't have to do that either.

    Chapters 3-7 notes

    Take care of the things you have. Don't automatically default to "throwaway materialism" and over consumption.

    Appreciate what you have and what went into it: author's example - appreciate that plastic chair you have, have gratitude for the workers that smelted the metal in the legs, mined the ore, worked in the factory. Don't just throw it away because you're bored with it.

    Be aware of where you're spending your money!

    Buy quality when possible and take care of it.

    Be mindful of what you're throwing out and don't be wasteful.

    (*Side note: the authors may tout this whole idea of scrounging the "waste stream" a little hard for my taste. They're advocating getting everything from furniture to clothes and more from trash left on the street to secondhand stores. Using every last scrap of food including sour milk for pancakes (although that's probably not that bad of an idea). Even scooping dried pigeon droppings under bridges for "the best garden fertilizer." This is where it starts to sound like work!)

    Chapter: Recalibrate you're Your Senses: I like this one. The gist is similar to "hunger is the best spice," but, again, it's paying attention to what's in front of you and appreciating it.

    They talk about a consumption rhythm of lean-lavish-lean, which strikes me as similar to the intermittent fasting idea. Or the sandwich eaten at the top on the mountain tastes so good!

    (*Side note: I maintain I had the best soup and homemade bread *ever* after a four hour hike to the Tea House of the Six Glaciers near Banff, BC. In retrospect, expectations for the food were low, it was a long hike, we were hungry... But lunch was amazing! Google it. Go there! Also, this whole topic reminds me of the text that talks about Epicurus, from time to time, would try to see how much food would be just enough to give him pleasure, I assume how much or how little would satisfy his hunger.)

    There's also the appreciation of natural light when the electric goes out. Then an appreciation of electric when it comes back!!

    "Frequently making frugal choices furnishes us with a more sensitive pleasure palate."

    "Frugal hedonism furnishes us with an Elegant sufficiency of consumption."

    (*Side note: Elegant. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah: "There is an elegance in simplicity...")

    "Be patient and gloat over every little increase in your capacity for pleasure."

    Exploring this topic a little and came across this:

    Robert Louis Stevenson, An Apology for Idlers

    Something else to read now! I've never heard of it before, but I'm intrigued... Especially by writing such as this:

    Quote from Stevenson (emphasis added)

    There is a sort of dead-alive, hackneyed{21} people about, who are scarcely conscious of living except in the exercise of some conventional occupation. Bring these fellows into the country, or set them aboard ship, and you will see how they pine for their desk or their study. They have no curiosity; they cannot give themselves over to random provocations; they do not take pleasure in the exercise of their faculties for its own sake; and unless Necessity lays about them with a stick, they will even stand still. It is no good speaking to such folk: they cannot be idle, their nature is not generous enough; and they pass those hours in a sort of coma, which are not dedicated to furious moiling in the gold-mill.

    One of the meanings of απονια aponia is "idleness, non-exertion; exemption from toil (of women)"

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀπονία

    Plutarch uses it in this sense to describe Romulus and Remus:

    Quote from Plutarch

    They also applied themselves to generous occupations and pursuits, not esteeming sloth and idleness generous, but rather bodily exercise, hunting, running, driving off robbers, capturing thieves, and rescuing the oppressed from violence.

    PS. And note this is "apology for idlers" as in the sense of defense, as in Plato's Apology and apologetics. Just wanted to say that explicitly.

    Quote from Little Rocker

    I'll be curious, Don, to find out whether 'frugal hedonism' ends up weighing in on the other stuff--like, you could be a frugal hedonist and still await your heavenly reward or be a frugal hedonist and still think the death of a child is part of a well-ordered cosmos.

    Yesterday was busy for me and this sentence took a while to sink in.

    Thinking further about it, I realize the implication:. The book title could have been the result of a phenomena that Norman Dewitt specifically mentions, that Epicurus is doomed to be anonymous when praised but named when condemned.

    In other words, is the book a "conformist" approach in which someone decided to take everything they could from Epicurus that "sounds good" and strip from it everything that Lucretius' describes as "bitter?"

    Given how important the "bitter" part is - in my view it is the real heart of the philosophy - if I woke up in a bad mood (which I didn't) I might be tempted to take a decidedly less charitable view of the book and its title.

    Is the book attempting to do for Epicurus what the Modern Stoics do to Stoicism - strip it of integrity and add it to the modern list of anesthesia alternatives?

    (Ha that last sentence sounds more harsh than I mean it to be. But the phenomena is a real one, and in the end it *isn't* one to be encouraged in either the Stoic or Epicurean worlds.)

    I am a little late in weighing in on this, but my first reaction is "be careful". And could there be something "stoic" about being frugal -- that it leads to the elevation of a type of virtue -- and the perfection of "frugality"?

    The definition of frugality on the internet:

    fru·gal·i·ty

    /fro͞oˈɡalədē/

    noun

    the quality of being economical with money or food; thriftiness.

    "he scorned the finer things in life and valued frugality and simplicity"

    synonyms: thriftiness, carefulness, scrimping and saving, conservation, good management, caution, prudence, providence, canniness, abstemiousness, abstinence, austerity, asceticism, self-discipline, restraint, moderation, puritanism, monasticism, monkishness, miserliness, meanness, parsimoniousness, niggardliness, close-fistedness, tight-fistedness, tightness, stinginess, sparingness

    Note that the definition includes "asceticism" as a synonym.

    I would say that it is important to think of yourself as possessing prudence as a tool for making good choices, rather than being "frugal". There aren't any hard and fast rules for a pleasurable and pleasant life, and we judge each situation uniquely according to our given resources.

    Looked up the definition of "prudence":

    pru·dence

    /ˈpro͞odns/

    noun

    the quality of being prudent; cautiousness.

    "we need to exercise prudence in such important matters"

    synonyms: wisdom, judgment, good judgment, judiciousness, sagacity, shrewdness, advisability, common sense, sense, caution, cautiousness, care, carefulness, canniness, chariness, wariness, circumspection, far-sightedness, foresight, forethought, discretion, thrift, thriftiness, providence, good management, careful budgeting, economy, frugality, abstemiousness, forehandedness, sparingness

    LOL...frugality is a synonym :D

    I'm really just a fan of our philosophy just being "Hedonism" (sans adjective). I want to force the other "Hedonists" to defend their "brand" of Hedonism with apologetic adjectives, like, "Unrestrained Hedonism", or "YOLO Hedonism".

    Quote from Nate

    I want to force the other "Hedonists" to defend their "brand" of Hedonism with apologetic adjectives, like, "Unrestrained Hedonism", or "YOLO Hedonism".

    Looked up "YOLO" -- On Urban Dictionary, scroll down as you read a few of the entries, cause it is kind of funny:

    Urban Dictionary: Yolo
    Yolo means, ‘You Only Live Once’.
    www.urbandictionary.com

    Thing is...that if "you only live once", then you shouldn't screw it up, and so this points to incorrect thinking regarding the best way to pursue pleasure -- and a disregard for the future and the long-term outcome.

    Thinking of phrases...perhaps...Epicureanism = "Best Life Hedonism"

    Quote from Don

    In keeping with Cassius new thread:

    Epicurus taught YOLO but not the YOLO That You Are Familiar With. ^^

    I realized after typing "YOLO" that is is both thematically perfect, and also, connotatively antithetical to my message, so my bad for throwing out that adjective (and I'll use this as an opportunity to further demonstrate that nouns are more powerful than adjectives, and a good noun should spare us the expense of having to buy an adjective).

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply

    2. Evidence of Survivors of Pompeii and Herculaneum 1

      • kochiekoch
      • November 20, 2024 at 8:17 PM
    3. Replies
      1
      Views
      99
      1

    4. Don

      November 20, 2024 at 8:17 PM

    2. “Better to lose the money because of me than to lose me because of the money.” 3

      • TauPhi
      • November 19, 2024 at 9:30 PM
    3. Replies
      3
      Views
      226
      3

    4. Don

      November 19, 2024 at 9:30 PM

    2. An Anti-Epicurean Article - "The Meaning of Life Is Not Happiness" (For Future Reference) 12

      • Cassius
      • November 19, 2024 at 12:17 PM
    3. Replies
      12
      Views
      901
      12

    4. Pacatus

      November 19, 2024 at 12:17 PM

    2. Was De Rerum Natura intended as satire? A lecture by THM Gellar-Goad. 14

      • Julia
      • November 11, 2024 at 4:09 PM
    3. Replies
      14
      Views
      1.1k
      14

    4. Julia

      November 11, 2024 at 4:09 PM

    2. New Slideshow: Nothing Comes From Nothing

      • Cassius
      • November 10, 2024 at 3:51 PM
    3. Replies
      0
      Views
      537