Living off the land

Quote from HsiehKW

I think they might have bought bread judging from Epicurus's famous "gloating" about living on less than a penny.

I addressed the quote from Seneca about the "penny" in a post from January:

Post

RE: Weight Loss Methods - Poll of EpicureanFriends Results

Diogenes Laertius 10.7:

he spent a whole mina daily on his table, as he himself says in his letter to Leontion and in that to the philosophers at Mitylene.

[ U158 ]

Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, 18.9: The great hedonist teacher Epicurus used to observe certain periods during which he would be niggardly in satisfying his hunger, with the object of seeing to what extent, if at all, one thereby fell short of attaining full and complete pleasure, and whether it was worth going to much trouble to make…

Don

January 18, 2023 at 12:14 PM

And, yes, the Garden (ho kēpos ο κήπος ) would have included vegetables and fruit. If you search around on the site here (or take a look at my paper on the location of the Garden in the Files section) you'll see some description of the size and use. They would not have exclusively lived off the land, however; no more than any other ancient Greek living in the city of Athens.

Good subject for a thread, and yes I myself divide my time between city life and "the countryside" - where I hope to spend more and more of my time. But as of yet I have not developed much of a green thumb, with the exception of planting several fig trees which are now mature and producing.

I also have a sad history of killing succulents, but I grew tomatoes for a few summers before I started traveling regularly, and it was amazingly rewarding. I say give it a go! As for Epicurus, there seems to have been a record of him writing to thank a friend for selling grain at a fair price during scarcity, and another record of the Epicureans rationing beans. So as Don says, it seems they did grow many things, but like everyone else, they were not entirely self-sustaining. As I understand it, Greece always had trouble growing enough food to feed its population, which is one of the reasons they had so many colonies. And then there were skirmishes among the city-states for the agricultural land. There's a good book about this, aptly titled War, Food, and Politics in Early Hellenistic Athens, GJ Oliver.

Quote from Little Rocker

There's a good book about this, aptly titled War, Food, and Politics in Early Hellenistic Athens, GJ Oliver.

By Zeus, I love my library! Just put a hold on it in our collection. Ready to pick up Thursday

I think this is an important topic. Epicurus valued autonomy and self-sufficiency. It seems to me that having money will provide neither when something really goes wrong with the country/currency.

I grew up on 20 acres of pasture land, but my parents must not have seen the merits in introducing me to things like gardening or tending to livestock much, though we had those things. So I never acquired a real desire to produce food. I am more of a value added type of guy, turning that food into fermented beverages.

My wife is big on house plants and I do have a sole pothos plant next to my statue of Epicurus that I thought I'd get to be in solidarity with her, and to notice/remember my Epicurus. It has survived many dryspells of me forgetting about it for weeks.

As for living off the land, that may be something I have in the cards as some friends of mine and I are pooling our money together early next year for some land to have our commune on. So that's fun to think about.

Even with the difficulty (or almost impossibility) of getting modern equivalent values for ancient money, your calculations look at least plausible to me. Nicely done.
The important thing to me seems to be that even experimenting on eating what "less than an as" would buy, Epicurus wasn't starving himself like an ascetic. He wasn't trying to live on a single grain of rice like Siddhartha Gautama during his ascetic phase. Epicurus was experimenting from time to time on how much would actually satisfy his hunger.

Quote from HsiehKW

Don I'm meaning to experiment with how far I can go live on today's equivalent of 2 asses in my currency. But unlike Epicurus, I don't think I'd have a good reason to gloat or boast.

We have to be careful about phrases like this, because we don't have Epicurus's "well-known" letter that Seneca refers to. The relevant section is Seneca letter 18:8-11 (emphasis added):

Quote from Seneca

Even Epicurus, the teacher of pleasure, used to observe stated intervals, during which he satisfied his hunger in meager fashion; he wished to see whether he thereby fell short of full and complete happiness, and, if so, by what amount he fell short, and whether this amount was worth purchasing at the price of great effort. At any rate, he makes such a statement in the well known letter written to Polyaenus in the archonship of Charinus.[7] Indeed, he boasts that he himself lived on less than an as, but that Metrodorus, whose progress was not yet so great, needed a whole as. 10. Do you think that there can be fulness on such fare? Yes, and there is pleasure also, – not that shifty and fleeting pleasure which needs a fillip now and then, but a pleasure that is steadfast and sure. For though water, barley-meal, and crusts of barley-bread, are not a cheerful diet, yet it is the highest kind of pleasure to be able to derive pleasure from this sort of food, and to have reduced one's needs to that modicum which no unfairness of Fortune can snatch away. 11. Even prison fare is more generous; and those who have been set apart for capital punishment are not so meanly fed by the man who is to execute them. Therefore, what a noble soul must one have, to descend of one's own free will to a diet which even those who have been sentenced to death have not to fear! This is indeed forestalling the spear-thrusts of Fortune.

So, Epicurus undertook these intervals of experimenting with a meager diet, "less generous than prison fare," from time to time to prove to himself that if he *had* to live on that much due to unforseen circumstances in the future, he could still be happy. He was testing his limits experimentally.

We have to be careful about the English translation of Seneca's glorior in the Latin text as "boast". Remember that we're getting Epicurus's Greek filtered through the Stoic Seneca's Latin. Glorior does mean "boast" but also "take pride in." And remember we don't have Epicurus's words. We can't know how he described his feeling. To indulge in some DeWittean flight of fancy referring to a lost text, I could easily imagine Epicurus writing to Polyaenus: "Recently, I've been able to satisfy my hunger pleasurably on less than an obol. I'm quite pleased with that outcome. Metrodorus has found he still requires a full obol, and we have had enjoyable frank discussions about our experiences..." That's all imagination remember. But if the lost letter went something like that -- and we don't know if it did! -- I could see the Seneca the Stoic saying Epicurus was boasting or was proud of himself.

In reference to my post 11 above, it is not out of the question in my opinion to consider periodic fasting or intervals of caloric restriction to be well within Epicurean practice. I'm not ready to call for either as a regular lifestyle but could easily see the teachers and students of the Garden periodically taking part in these and comparing results with each other. When you pay attention to your feeling of pleasure, is your meal truly satisfying? When times of famine come (as they most definitely did in ancient Greece!), how much truly satisfies my hunger and removes my pain? What do I *need* as opposed to what do I *want*? Then go about your regular routine until the next experiment. Do I need as much as last time or does less satisfy me? Or do I really need more? What do I *need* to be healthy and happy? Was I fooling myself last time, trying to show off withstanding pain, like a Stoic?

This also has echoes of Epicurus sharing his bean crop in times of famine. He and his students were prepared to know what a reasonable or realistic ration was due to prior experience and experimentation.

This could be an interesting area for experimentation.

Edit/Addendum:

I wanted to add that nowhere do we read that Epicurus experimented in this way with clothing, housing, etc. He didn't experiment with living by begging or staying in a cave. He didn't go out with a flimsy cloak or barefoot in winter (like Socrates did to show how unencumbered by convention he was). He didn't try begging in the streets like Cynic. Epicurus had a modest house in the city, a large private productive Garden literally in the suburbs. Epicurus does write about fancy clothes and extravagant houses being unnecessary for well-being, but these could be enjoyed, just like a banquet, if opportunities presented themselves.

I’ve shared before that my wife and I spent 15 years on 20+ acres in the country. Our cottage sat down a chert lane and across a small limestone creek (called Terrapin Branch), and against a high wooded ridge. We had goats and various fruit trees (my wife made tasty dry country wines from tart cherries and elderberries – and even parsley once). We had a kitchen garden that yielded enough tomatoes, bell peppers, onions and garlic – and herbs such as oregano, parsley and sage -- to last the winter. In the last years, we had a small greenhouse.

To do that, I had to retire early, and we cut our income by nearly half. Let’s say we lived those years in "rich simplicity."

Now we have lived for 10 years as townies in a small apartment. We only grow a few herbs on the deck. We do try to get a lot of groceries and produce from the local co-op. (During the pandemic we had nearly everything delivered – including wine from a discount wine club that supports up-and-coming independent vintners, including a number of women.) We eat out about once a week.

I am not by nature ascetic – quite the contrary! I do intermittent fasting for its health benefits (12 to 16 hours three or four times a week). All in all, as townies on fixed income, I would say that we live in “rich frugality.”

Hunger is the best spice "cibi condimentum esse famem" as Cicero, in one of his Epicurus roasts (De Finibus II.xxviii) attributes to Socrates. So the idea/statement would have been common/passé in Epicurus' time. The idea seems to be expressed in many cultures at many times in history.

I just wanted to add to the above that I do not think of “frugality” as some kind of idealistic virtue-discipline (ala, say, the Stoics) – but just as the simple practical virtue of “living well within your means” – where the double entendre with that word “well” is deliberate. And living well just means living as pleasurable, painlessly and stresslessly as possible.

+++++++++

HsiehKW

I’ve always been a natural introvert and even a bit reclusive at times (well, maybe more than a bit ). A few close friends matter a lot, but I would have a hard time living in a close community – even of like-minded folks. This is my Epicurean community.

Quote from Pacatus

I just wanted to add to the above that I do not think of “frugality” as some kind of idealistic virtue-discipline (ala, say, the Stoics) – but just as the simple practical virtue of “living well within your means” – where the double entendre with that word “well” is deliberate. And living well just means living as pleasurable, painlessly and stresslessly as possible.

Well put! Thanks for sharing that!

From how I read your post, you see frugality as a means to "living well" and not an end in itself like a Stoic would. Frugality is not a capital-V Virtue to be followed in every situation at every time in every place.

Quote from HsiehKW

I wonder if any of us here have a sort of close community of Epicurean friends nearby, how that helps, and any tips on how you go about it if you are without such.

This would be a real outlier! Epicurus said we should follow the mores of the land. What communities exist in the US?

Judaism, lording land and labor, is rather closed off to newcomers. Christianity is very slavish as a religion, but many "Christians" are actually free minded folks that would be good Epicureans -- particularly if they had experienced less school/propaganda.

The government/FBI is very sensitive about people being invited to live for free on a communal property.