Best Translation of PD05 To Feature At EpicureanFriends.com

LOL! "Literally" Neither the manuscripts, even the best ones, nor Diogenes of O. can agree on the exact wording of this text. This'll be a good one to pull together some of what I'm finding in the various sources. This one in particular is a mess! I'll try to post this evening. For now, consider this a teaser

The words that evoke a negative response in my mind are:

- "proper" (Makridis)

- "rightly" (St.-Andre)

- "nobly" (Strodach)

For me, these words sound Aristotlean in that they imply some sort approved standard to abide by.

Quote from Godfrey

The words that evoke a negative response in my mind are:

- "proper" (Makridis)

- "rightly" (St.-Andre)

- "nobly" (Strodach)

For me, these words sound Aristotlean in that they imply some sort approved standard to abide by.

They all translate καλώς (kalōs) and ALL are legitimate translations of that slippery word.

Woodhouse, S. C. (1910) English–Greek Dictionary: A Vocabulary of the Attic Language‎[1], London: Routledge & Kegan Paul Limited.

Synonyms for kalos include:

admirable idem, page 12.

artistic idem, page 42.

auspicious idem, page 53.

beautiful idem, page 68.

buxom idem, page 107.

capital idem, page 111.

comely idem, page 145.

creditable idem, page 183.

elegant idem, page 265.

estimable idem, page 283.

excellent idem, page 288.

exquisite idem, page 296.

fair idem, page 302.

favourable idem, page 311.

fine idem, page 321.

fortunate idem, page 340.

good idem, page 366.

goodly idem, page 367.

handsome idem, page 383.

happy idem, page 384.

high-principled idem, page 400.

honourable idem, page 405.

hopeful idem, page 405.

lovely idem, page 502.

lucky idem, page 504.

noble idem, page 559.

ornamental idem, page 580.

picturesque idem, page 611.

plausible idem, page 618.

pomantic idem, page 625.

principled idem, page 641.

promising idem, page 653.

propitious idem, page 653.

reputable idem, page 699.

righteous idem, page 715.

skilful idem, page 780.

specious idem, page 799.

spruce idem, page 806.

virtuous idem, page 954.

well-favoured idem, page 974

“It is not possible to live pleasantly without [living] practically and properly and peacefully, <nor practically and properly and peacefully> without [living] pleasantly; but one who does not take this sort of initiative to live practically, and properly and peacefully, cannot live pleasantly.”

That is my take on it after some digestion and deconstruction.

That IS a slippery word! Maybe "buxom" would be a better translation

This word is a good illustration of the woes of translating.

Quote from Nate

“It is not possible to live pleasantly without [living] practically and properly and peacefully, <nor practically and properly and peacefully> without [living] pleasantly; but one who does not take this sort of initiative to live practically, and properly and peacefully, cannot live pleasantly.”

That is my take on it after some digestion and deconstruction.

I like the alliteration but to which words are you pegging practically, properly and peacefully.

My take is:

practically φρονιμως?

properly καλως?

peacefully δικαιως?

I understand the sentiment but not sure I fully concur with the translation.... Unless you're going for a functional/dynamic translation rather than a formal/literal.

Quote from Don

Quote from Nate

“It is not possible to live pleasantly without [living] practically and properly and peacefully, <nor practically and properly and peacefully> without [living] pleasantly; but one who does not take this sort of initiative to live practically, and properly and peacefully, cannot live pleasantly.”

That is my take on it after some digestion and deconstruction.

I like the alliteration but to which words are you pegging practically, properly and peacefully.

My take is:

practically φρονιμως?

properly καλως?

peacefully δικαιως?

I understand the sentiment but not sure I fully concur with the translation.... Unless you're going for a functional/dynamic translation rather than a formal/literal.

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You'e got it. Among others, this doctrine is BEGGING for consonance.

I take φρονιμως as "practically", though "prudently" would be equally if not more appropriate

I sort of dislike the idea of καλως because I just haven't been able to digest the idea well. What is "beautiful" that is not also "prudent"? What is "beautiful" which is not also "just"? Surely we are not talking about "physical arousal at the human form", but rather some sort of "appropriate manner in which a lifestyle is lived", so "properly" is what I take. Still, I don't quite like "properly" because it's sounds sort of ... eh ... it's the best word that I've found to translate καλως. Even given my self-imposed "P"-consonance, I think "properly" (so far) best expresses the idea of "living excellently".

I want to break "justice" as δικαιως down into a familiar idea. Some read "justice" and think "The Second Coming" and "Sinners in Hell". Some read "justice" as "The Thin Blue Line". Neither is appropriate. So, I want to employ a more familiar word that expresses Epicurean Justice, which, fundamentally, is a peaceful agreement between people.

Quote from Don

Quote from Nate

I understand the sentiment but not sure I fully concur with the translation.... Unless you're going for a functional/dynamic translation rather than a formal/literal.

In general, my intention is more (as you describe elsewhere) a functional/dynamic interpretation. My attitude is, if someone wants a 1:1 transliteration ... just learn ancient Greek. καλως is only truly accurate as καλως.

Thanks, Nate, for the insight into your creative process.

Quote from Nate

You'e got it. Among others, this doctrine is BEGGING for consonance.

I agree, from a purely poetic perspective (to carry on the consonance :-)). Just to be clear to everyone, there is no alliteration in the original and the -os ending of kalos, dikaios, phronimos is due to Greek case endings. That's not to say Epicurus (or the Epicurean author) didn't like the way they sounded together, but it would have happened anyway with those endings.

You're almost required to use "pleasurably" as well and stick to p-consonance. I've seen enjoyably or happily or that sort of this, but with hedeos, bringing out the "pleasurably" seems paramount.

Quote from Nate

I take φρονιμως as "practically", though "prudently" would be equally if not more appropriate

Prudently has the problem of being perceived as Victorian, although I like it better from a semantic perspective. "Practically" works from "practical wisdom."

Quote from Nate

I sort of dislike the idea of καλως because I just haven't been able to digest the idea well. What is "beautiful" that is not also "prudent"? What is "beautiful" which is not also "just"? Surely we are not talking about "physical arousal at the human form", but rather some sort of "appropriate manner in which a lifestyle is lived", so "properly" is what I take. Still, I don't quite like "properly" because it's sounds sort of ... eh ... it's the best word that I've found to translate καλως. Even given my self-imposed "P"-consonance, I think "properly" (so far) best expresses the idea of "living excellently".

Kalos is SUCH a catch-all term for all things proper, noble, excellent. Strong's defines the usage as "beautiful, as an outward sign of the inward good, noble, honorable character; good, worthy, honorable, noble, and seen to be so." If "principled" had an adverbial form, that might work. So, yeah, "properly" is probably the proper possibility.

Quote from Nate

I want to break "justice" as δικαιως down into a familiar idea. Some read "justice" and think "The Second Coming" and "Sinners in Hell". Some read "justice" as "The Thin Blue Line". Neither is appropriate. So, I want to employ a more familiar word that expresses Epicurean Justice, which, fundamentally, is a peaceful agreement between people.

This is the one I'm having problems processing. To me, Epicurean justice has to do with fairness, not harming others, but making sure to take measures where others don't willfully harm you. We treat others properly.. but that's already being used. Politely doesn't seem strong enough. Maybe peaceably instead of peacefully? I'm going to have to ponder this one before I'm all in.

All that being said, I think you have a good dynamic translation... and I fully understand your

Quote from Nate

if someone wants a 1:1 transliteration ... just learn ancient Greek. καλως is only truly accurate as καλως.

Quote from Don

This is the one I'm having problems processing. To me, Epicurean justice has to do with fairness, not harming others, but making sure to take measures where others don't willfully harm you. We treat others properly.. but that's already being used. Politely doesn't seem strong enough. Maybe peaceably instead of peacefully? I'm going to have to ponder this one before I'm all in.

This is a great observation. I think I might be making a semantic mistake if "peacefully" implies pure pacifism, because part of the agreement to not harm also includes a prevention against "being harmed", and that might imply force. I think I'll take your suggestion of "peaceably" because it lessens the risk of being interpreted as pacifism.

Ah, but Cassius , can you come up with a word that starts with P to encapsulate all that??