So You Want To Learn Ancient Greek Or Latin?

Ways to type Ancient Greek on a keyboard (in some cases without downloading any new software):

1 - within a browser (type in browser, copy and paste into documents):

Ancient Greek Keyboard - Polytonic Diacritics - LEXILOGOS

www.lexilogos.com

2 - if you use Windows 10:

How do I easily type Greek letters on Windows 10?

I have only ever used English language settings for keyboards and Operating Systems. As I am starting to learn Greek, I would like to be able to easily type in…

latin.stackexchange.com

3 - document for Windows environment:

http://www.dramata.com/Ancient%20polytonic%20Greek%20in%20Windows.pdf

4 - various methods for various platforms

Typing in Ancient Greek

Note: This is a collection of sites/tools to help students and enthusiasts. I am posting it gain because I frequently get the question and there is no simple…

sententiaeantiquae.com

This is the video I've been waiting on!!

This is great. I see that for classical Attic he is recommending light aspirated stops, which is excellent. This chart shows clearly what I think is one of the more complicated parts of pronunciation.

Quote from Bryan

This chart shows clearly what I think is one of the more complicated parts of pronunciation.

That's one of the reasons I'm gravitating toward the Pompeian Variant of Lucian Reconstruction with fricative φθχ although I like the aspirated stops. That latter Classical pronunciation is used by Ioannis Stratakis at Podium Arts. It's just really hard, as an English speaker, to distinguish and produce the required contrast between aspirated and unaspirated stops. Plus we have Philodemus's connection to the area of Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Quote from Bryan

This is great. I see that for classical Attic he is recommending light aspirated stops, which is excellent. This chart shows clearly what I think is one of the more complicated parts of pronunciation.

One thing about ancient Greek are the aspirations. I took Phi or "ph" for granted as /f/ like "philosophy" when it would have been pronounced more like the /pʰ/ in "pot" or "pond". The same is true of Theta or "th" which we sometimes pronounce like "thorn" and "thistle", but would have been pronounced more like the /tʰ/ in "top".

Bryan I'm not sure if you're interested, but I published a little Tolkien project a while ago and this chart was one of the key things that came out of it. It helped me to understand phonology better with a visual map.

Eikadistes : Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!! ✨

The evolution of Greek pronunciation is fascinating. Modern Greek has gone all in on the fricatives βδγφθχ and also collapsed a number of vowels and diphthongs. But the language started back in Classical times with phonemic distinctions like aspirated vs unaspirated stops, pitch accent, phonemic vowel length, and others. I highly recommend Luke Ranieri's Greek Pronunciation Chronology Spreadsheet to see it laid out:

Ranieri's Greek Pronunciation Chronology

All Greek w/ Alternative Coaeval Pronunciations All Greek with Alternative Coaeval Phonemes,Luke Amadeus Ranieri's GREEK PRONUNCIATION CHRONOLOGY Spreadsheet…

docs.google.com

So, Stratakis uses a reconstructed Classical Attic convention, including all those ancient distinctions; whereas Ranieri provides a spectrum of evolutionary steps. Both are firmly rooted and supported by historical and linguistic research.

I'm a bit of a linguistics nerd and find all this fascinating. I learned the International Phonetic Alphabet in high school, etc. I fully agree with Ranieri when he talks about the importance of pitch accent and vowel length in especially being able to appreciate ancient poetry and to appreciate just the sound of the language. It's an interesting thought experiment to consider how "evolved" Epicurus's pronunciation was toward fricativization and other features, or Philodemus, or Diogenes of Oenoanda.

Full disclosure: This is a highly controversial topic in some circles but historical evidence is clear, compelling, and definitive in backing up this linguistic evolution. All languages go through it.

Here are some other links on Ranieri's site:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/80661461

https://lukeranieri.com/lucianpronunciation/

Quote from Don

It's just really hard, as an English speaker, to distinguish and produce the required contrast between aspirated and unaspirated stops.

It really is -- and the video does a good job of highlighting those difficulties. I know that many teachers will mention the fact that this was the more nearly correct pronunciation of Attic, but will discard it on the first day in favor of φθχ fricatives. I like the idea, but it is difficult. Attempts to adopt the older pronunciation lead me to the expected awkwardness and errors, mostly over-doing the aspiration to provide a contrast with the unaspirated (a common mistake, as he says).

That is a good chart, thank you for sharing!

Regarding vowels: as I am looking at his chart, although I am consistent, I'd be guilty of the dreaded "anachronistic combinations of phonemes." Is it too sloppy to say that if it was used before the common era it is fair game? Some town could probably be found using that mix.

Quote from Don

It's an interesting thought experiment to consider how "evolved" Epicurus's pronunciation was toward fricativization and other features

Exactly, I think all we can say of the Greek used in the garden is that it was somewhere in the evolution -- even possibly including features more associated with later dates.

Quote from Nate

I published a little Tolkien project a while ago

I am interested, but sincerely ignorant of Tolkien (beyond the fact he is the author of The Lord of the Rings). I just did a quick wikipedia read however - interesting stuff! Is the script of Tengwar actually printed in the books and legible?

Quote from Bryan

I am interested, but sincerely ignorant of Tolkien (beyond the fact he is the author of The Lord of the Rings). I just did a quick wikipedia read however - interesting stuff! Is the script of Tengwar actually printed in the books and legible?

I won't steal Eikadistes 's fire, but chime in on my own experience.

The Appendices of The Lord of Rings have a whole section on the languages and wriiting systems. They can be see in use on most editions' title pages, on The Doors of Durin at the entrance to Moria, in the song book "The Road Goes Ever On" with Tolkien and Swann, and in Tolkien calligraphy online (and there's a LOT of fan art with the letters).

The thing that has always endeared Tolkien to me is that **the languages came first**! He was a conlanger from an early age, created the "Elvish" languages and wanted a world in which they were spoken... hence Middle-earth came into being!

If you're curious at all, a wonderful site is Ardalambion from Helge Fauskanger.

I realize we're way afield of Epicurus's Garden here, so I'll put my Tolkien fandom (which began back in the late 70s/early 80s) back into my pocketses for now.

Quote from Bryan

Quote from Don

Is the script of Tengwar actually printed in the books and legible?

It sure is! The first half of an old book I self-published is a collection lyrical poetry from three albums I wrote:

The Book of SH∆ZD∆R

The Book of Shazdar is a mythopoetic manifesto of lyrical poetry, supplemented with an extended reflection of art, music, and philosophy. It is organized into…

www.academia.edu

Those lyrics are in the English language that uses a modified version of Tolkien's Tengwar script for English instead of the Roman characters (that, for example, limits our ability to express phonemes like "th", "sh", and "ch"). There's a whole rabbit hole down which to fall ... I'm a big fan, and Tengwar got me into linguistics in the first place. I'm a BIG fan.

Quote from Nate

I self-published is a collection lyrical poetry from three albums I wrote:

That is beautiful. However much we may like Latin, I am ready to put my vote for a nice new script for writing English! Honestly, I have always thrown the fictional baby away with the religious bathwater. Having been burnt by the Bible, I spurned all fiction since childhood. I need to get over it and try to read some Tolkien! There are infinite worlds, after all. We know there are worlds similar to ours, but we must also see that there are worlds very dissimilar from ours. It's wild out there.

Quote from Don

This is a highly controversial topic in some circles

Yes it can be a hot topic! I respect those who feel strongly about it, but I do not. We can tolerate academic fussing, but we don't want to get yelled at in Greek about the national spirit. I learned from Smyth, and it seems I have stuck to it, despite being somewhat bothered by the anachronistic φθχ fricatives at times (as you indicated, we can hold onto the 1st c. BC "Pompeian" usage like a life raft).

I compared Smyth to his recommendations from the 6th to the 1st c. BC. I see mostly agreement (to the extent that I am correctly connecting it to the IPA). Good stuff, thanks again for pointing it out!

Comparison with Ranieri's Greek Pronunciation Chronology

Quote from Bryan

I am ready to put my vote for a nice new script for writing English!

For your consideration:

Constructed scripts and languages

www.omniglot.com

Somewhat into the weeds of Ancient Greek, but this paper provides practical applications of learning that language:

Hellēnizein: A Flexible Structure for Teaching Greek to Archaeologists and Ancient Historians (2nd author with E. Parisinou). Milton Keynes, 2004; Liverpool, 2008; Leicester, 2015

Hellēnizein: A Flexible Structure for Teaching Greek to Archaeologists and Ancient Historians (2nd author with E. Parisinou). Milton Keynes, 2004; Liverpool,…

www.academia.edu

Being able to pick out names and phrases on artifacts in museums is quite rewarding.

Their recommendation for alpha to be pronounced as the "a" in "bad" is surprising. I am not sure I have even seen that suggested before. I suppose they did that to distinguish it from their recommendation of omicron to be pronounced as "o" in "got" (which is reasonable) but also is very close to the more normal range of recommendations for the pronunciation of alpha.

As they say this is for "degrees in ancient history, archaeology or classical archaeology where a high level of language expertise is not required" I know they are in the UK, so the "a" in bad is not as far off as it is in the US, so even if we pronounce "bad" like the king does, the recommendation still seems bad. A little IPA would have gone a long way.

They also say "αι combines the sounds of alpha and iota, producing a diphthong similar to the English ‘eye’." I agree with this, but I think it contradicts their recommendation for alpha to be pronounced as the "a" in "bad."

If we take the "a" in "bad" and slide it with an iota (either as "beat" or "bit") - we do not get "eye" but "a-ei" in "Maggie." However if alpha is pronounced as Smyth recommends (Spanish "casa" or "father") the slide of the diphthong correctly produces "aye."

Bryan : Yeah, I wasn't impressed with their pronunciation convention. It seemed a little hodgepodge and too "Erasmian."

I was more impressed with this paleography sections.

Just as an experiment, I wanted to see how well GPT could automatically break the text into smaller sections and produce a vocab list. I ran the letter to Herodotus through it and added some translations for comparison.

The results are mixed, and the robot translations are bad, but just producing this "backbone" would have previously taken a lot of time yet this only took a few hours. With this as a starting point, producing another translation (not that another one is needed) is made fun and easy --- as most of the pieces are put right in front of you.

Bryan : You might need interested in these videos:

Quote from Bryan

Just as an experiment, I wanted to see how well GPT could automatically break the text into smaller sections and produce a vocab list. I ran the letter to Herodotus through it and added some translations for comparison

That looks very interesting! You have a couple of versions of each sentence joined with a sort of "nodictionaries.com" word by word definition? I can't tell from my phone layout but depending on how arranged on a page definitely has possibilities as a study aid.

Quote from Bryan

Just as an experiment, I wanted to see how well GPT could automatically break the text into smaller sections and produce a vocab list

That's an impressive start. And that vocab list was generated automatically by ChatGPT? Some of the grammar and definitions are basic, but I'll admit I'm a little stunned, encouraged, and just a little bit intimidated.

PS: Upon further reflection, I still believe you need a human intelligence to interpret, to understand, and to communicate what the texts mean and how to apply them.

Quote from Cassius

You have a couple of versions of each sentence joined with a sort of "nodictionaries.com" word by word definition?

It is comparable to "nodictionaries.com" but I think their formatting is superior. I intended to have the vocabulary at an intermediate level, but that formatting for "nodictionaries.com" allows for full flexibility to toggle between levels. This makes it more alive, which I really appreciate.

Quote from Don

And that vocab list was generated automatically by ChatGPT?

Yes it was and (I think even more helpfully) it put the text into sections (I attached the prompt, but it is nothing special). Although, I did make the large breaks (eg, breaking [44] into [44a] and [44b]) and added the translation comparisons. I'll be going through it in 2024 and add etymological notes and another translation. It's much better than a crossword puzzle.

"I want death to find me planting my cabbages, but careless of death, and still more careless of my unfinished garden.” —Montaigne

Quote from Cassius

You have a couple of versions of each sentence joined with a sort of "nodictionaries.com" word by word definition?

Quote from Don

Some of the grammar and definitions are basic

I want to give a very hearty thanks to you both, Don and Cassius, for your attention and comments. I am about to start giving this project more attention, and rewriting the GPT errors. I wanted to share this prototype with the group - any further comments and critiques will be appreciated and will likely help the process. Thank you.

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