Tips On Offsetting Pleasures Against Pains

Quote from Cassius

We are doing what we can to maximize pleasures of all kinds, and we are doing what we can to minimized pleasures of all kinds,

...minimize pains of all kinds...right?

I agree with everything you wrote in post no. 20, Cassius . Well put.

Quote from Cassius

The issue is more that the Doctrines are presuming an Epicurean understanding of so many key terms and concepts, and without that background understanding the simple words are generally taken to mean something much different than intended. It's not "simplification" of wording that is needed, it's more "additional" wording that explains the use of the terms.

Agreed. On that note, it's important to emphasize that all the epitomes, letters, Principle Doctrines, even The Sayings of Epicurus contained in the Vatican manuscript are summaries of voluminous teachings of the Epicurean school. They were literally - even explicitly, in the case of the letters - designed to remind the student of the larger body of teachings. They weren't an end in and of themselves. They were a useful means to an end. Even the Tetrapharmakos itself *needs* the full context of *all* the teachings and is meant as a memory aid not as an evangelism tool. So, "simplifying" them further is pointless if the wider doctrines and teachings aren't being pointed back to. If you try to use a summary to remind you of the content of just a larger summary, you're missing the reason for the initial summary in the first place.

As for evangelism and "spreading the word," we have Cicero complaining that the common people understood Epicurus's philosophy enough to be considered (by him, at least) members of the school. At it's most basic, Epicurean philosophy IS easy to understand. Let me take a stab:

1. Pleasure feels good. Pain feels bad.
2. Some pleasurable activities lead to pain.
3. Use your judgement to do more activities that bring long-term pleasure and avoid pain.
4. Take a second when you're just feeling good to notice that it feels good. You're not worried (at the moment). Your body feels good, too. That's what we mean by pleasure, too!
5. Make some friends to help you make better choices.
6. Don't worry about life after death, because you're not going to be aware that you don't exist!
7. Don't worry about being "in the hands of an angry god," because there's no reason any gods should concern themselves with you.
   1. Stick around to learn more about those last two if you want. For now, trust that we have good reasons to say them!

You can spend a lifetime (however long that is) studying, learning, discussing, internalizing the finer points; but those seven basics might be why Cicero was so angry about the hoi polloi being Epicureans. It's not that hard to "get started." And, no, I didn't mention physics, nor the details of how to choice and reject, nor a myriad of other things. But agreeing with those seven things doesn't seem a bad place to start for someone, in my opinion.

Quote from Cassius

If I recall correctly Thomas Jefferson picked up that line and put it in his outline:

That was an incredible display of recall, Cassius . Well done!!

I was curious to check out the Oxford English Dictionary to see what definition Jefferson would have been working with (as well as maybe those translators):

From 1603-1723: † Insensibility or indifference to pain; want of feeling. Obsolete.

From 1656-1751: Freedom from pain; a state of rest or ease, in which neither pain nor pleasure is felt. Obsolete.

Quotations (This definition actually uses quotes about Epicurus):

1656

Indolence, which Epicure held, they esteem not pleasure, nor want of pleasure,..for Indolence is like the state of a sleeping man. (T. Stanley, History of Philosophy vol. II. iv. facing p. 5)

1702

D'you know, said I, what Hieronymus Rhodius has allotted for the Summum Bonum? I know, said Torquatus, he resolves it into Nihil dolere, Mere Indolence. (S. Parker, translation of Cicero, Five Books De Finibus ii. 56)

1713

I cou'd rather call it an Indolence. It seems to be nothing more than a Privation of both Pain and Pleasure. (G. Berkeley, Three Dialogues Hylas & Philonous i. 14)

1751

That tranquility of mind, and indolence of body which he made his chief ends. (Earl of Orrery, Remarks Swift (1752) 113)

From the Historical Thesaurus entries for this definition:

non-feelingness 1650 Absence of sensation.

indolence 1656–1751 Freedom from pain; a state of rest or ease, in which neither pain nor pleasure is felt. Obsolete.

dispassion 1690– Freedom from passion; dispassionateness; †apathy.

dryness 1748 figurative. Absence of emotion, feeling, or fervour; lack of cordiality; coldness of feeling; distance of manner.

dispassionateness 1842– A dispassionate condition or quality.

passionlessness 1867– The state or condition of being or appearing passionless.

emotionlessness 1873– The quality, state, or condition of being emotionless.

(My Note: Those all sound more Stoic than Epicurean!)

Finally, definition from 1710-

The disposition to avoid trouble; love of ease; laziness, slothfulness, sluggishness.

Quote from Cassius

"Total absence of pain is the highest pleasure."

"Total" seems like a good clarification here

Quote from Don

Quote from Cassius

Can't Catholics (to take one example) not find joy in memories of past times and friends?

If a Christian of any stripe is **convinced** in their bones that they'll be livin' with Jesus after they die (albeit erroneously, may I add), maybe we could describe them as being free from the anxiety of death.

I don't have much to add but just for the sake of it, Catholics can NEVER be free from anxiety of hell\gods punishment because it is sinful to have "absolute certainty" of your salvation and you may only have a "moral" (lol) certainty. If you read the lives of some saints a lot of them die thinking they committed the sin of presumption so even though they lived a monastery and lived a life of sanctifying grace, they still die with anxiety of death and punishment. Shaking my head vigorously as I type this.

Not to get into the fact that Catholics saints caution against having "particular" friendships, so I don't even think they could think of happy times...also finding joy in anything except for the sake of God is imperfect.

Of course today most catholics are cultural, they do the ceremonies and go to mass maybe at Christmas but don't allow the Church any hold over them...I think Epicurus or one of the Epicureans said to appear at the local religious festivities but you don't really have to believe...I could be misremembering. Anyway another catholic rant, apologies.