March 20, 2024 - 20th Gathering Via Zoom - Agenda

I think we rarely discuss this issue of freedom from eternal punishment, and I think we need to emphasize it more, including in this 20th zoom, with two quotes included here:

Lucretius Book 1: [102] You yourself sometime vanquished by the fearsome threats of the seer’s sayings, will seek to desert from us. Nay indeed, how many a dream may they even now conjure up before you, which might avail to overthrow your schemes of life, and confound in fear all your fortunes. And justly so: for if men could see that there is a fixed limit to their sorrows, then with some reason they might have the strength to stand against the scruples of religion, and the threats of seers. As it is there is no means, no power to withstand, since everlasting is the punishment they must fear in death.

Nietzsche "Antichrist" Section 58: "The sneakishness of hypocrisy, the secrecy of the conventicle, concepts as black as hell, such as the sacrifice of the innocent, the unio mystica in the drinking of blood, above all, the slowly rekindled fire of revenge, of Chandala revenge—all that sort of thing became master of Rome: the same kind of religion which, in a pre-existent form, Epicurus had combatted. One has but to read Lucretius to know what Epicurus made war upon—not paganism, but "Christianity", which is to say, the corruption of souls by means of the concepts of guilt, punishment and immortality.—He combatted the subterranean cults, the whole of latent Christianity—to deny immortality was already a form of genuine salvation."

Lucretius Book 3 - [01] ... For as soon as thy philosophy, springing from thy godlike soul, begins to proclaim aloud the nature of things, the terrors of the mind fly away, the walls of the world part asunder, I see things moving on through all the void. The majesty of the gods is revealed, and their peaceful abodes, which neither the winds shake nor clouds soak with showers, nor does the snow congealed with biting frost besmirch them with its white fall, but an ever cloudless sky vaults them over, and smiles with light bounteously spread abroad. Moreover, nature supplies all they need, nor does anything gnaw at their peace of mind at any time. But on the other hand, the quarters of Acheron are nowhere to be seen....,

Lucretius Book 3 - [74] In like manner, often through the same fear, they waste with envy that he is powerful, he is regarded, who walks clothed with bright renown; while they complain that they themselves are wrapped in darkness and the mire. Some of them come to ruin to win statues and a name; and often through fear of death so deeply does the hatred of life and the sight of the light possess men, that with sorrowing heart they compass their own death, forgetting that it is this fear which is the source of their woes, which assails their honour, which bursts the bonds of friendship, and overturns affection from its lofty throne. For often ere now men have betrayed country and beloved parents, seeking to shun the realms of Acheron.

Lucretius Book 3 - [978] Yea, we may be sure, all those things, of which stories tell us in the depths of Acheron, are in our life. Neither does wretched Tantalus fear the great rock that hangs over him in the air, as the tale tells, numbed with idle terror; but rather ’tis in life that the vain fear of the gods threatens mortals; they fear the fall of the blow which chance may deal to each. [984] Nor do birds make their way into Tityos, as he lies in Acheron, nor can they verily in all the length of time find food to grope for deep in his huge breast. However vast the mass of his outstretched limbs, though he cover not only nine acres with his sprawling limbs, but the whole circle of earth, yet he will not be able to endure everlasting pain, nor for ever to supply food from his own body. But this is our Tityos, whom as he lies smitten with love the birds mangle, yea, aching anguish devours him, or care cuts him deep through some other passion.

Post

RE: Episode 219 - Cicero's On Ends - Book Two - Part 26 -Cicero Continues His Attack On Epicurus' Position On Pain

I was talking to @Kalosyni earlier today and it is my understanding that she is going to post regardin the topic for our discussion on the 20th zoom that will be relevant to our discussion of pain, including how Epicurus frees us from the fear of eternal pain. Here are several relevant quotes:

Lucretius Book 1: [102] You yourself sometime vanquished by the fearsome threats of the seer’s sayings, will seek to desert from us. Nay indeed, how many a dream may they even now conjure up before…

Cassius

March 16, 2024 at 1:56 PM

Quote from Kalosyni

"Narnia" which I just discovered is seen by Christians as another version of the Easter story.

Yeah, both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien were devout Christians, Anglican and Catholic, respectively. I will forever be a Tolkien fan, but I never got caught up in Narnia. Tolkien's deep world-building - including his languages - pulled me in and never let me go. Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo.

While Tolkien didn't like to use overt - or even hidden - symbolism and metaphor in his work; Lewis knowingly mirrored Christian themes in his work: Aslan the Lion = the Christ figure, for example. "C.S. Lewis often capitalizes the word lion in reference to Aslan since he parallels Jesus as the "Lion of Judah" in Christian theology."

Aslan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks to all who were able to attend this session We had twelve people, one of our best-attended events yet, and lots of good discussion. At this level of participation we definitely need to remember to ask people to use the "hand-raising" feature so we can keep the discussion flowing. One very good aspect of our group is that everyone is considerate and no one tries to monopolize the conversation, but that also means that the more people we have the more concern some will have that they are talking over others if they speak up. So going forward when we have so many (and hopefully more in the future) we'll definitely call attention to the hand-raising option, which should make it easier for everyone to be sure they get to say what's on their minds.

That's an interesting idea and I'd like to see feedback. It's good to keep planning for the future, and we don't want to get to the point where anyone feels like it's not worth it to attend because they don't get enough time to talk. I don't think we're at that point yet but we could soon. Zoom allows "breakout" rooms so something like that is easy to implement.