Welcome Al-Haakim!

Welcome Al-Hakiim von Grof

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Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

On behalf of all of us who have generated the content over the years, thank you for the kind words about the website Al-Hakiim!

For me finding the Jefferson endorsement of Epicurus was key. I'm not sure what you've seen here at the forum, but be sure you find the full collection of Jefferson material collected here. Hopefully we have all or part of that here, but if not we need to make sure those other letters beyond the Peter Carr "I too am an Epicurean" are easily findable. The letters with John Adams make it even more plain that Jefferson understood a lot about Epicurus.

So yes the Jefferson connection was a major influence on my own thinking. Now, given the path that you're own, i'd recommend the DeWitt book (for the sweeping scope) followed by the Austin book (for a contemporary appreciation that doesn't follow the modern trend to water down the philosophy).

it may not be an issue for you, but one of the most challenging aspects for most people is getting past a superficial interpretation of the word "pleasure." I would not recommend too much focus on Lucretius or even the core texts until you have read an introductory summary like DeWitt, but for me the most benefit has come from reading Books One and Two of Cicero's On Ends. Definitely don't tackle that until you've read enough introductory material to give you background on the "Pleasure" debate - for example you need to be sure that you are acquainted with the "anti-pleasure" arguments typified by Plato's "Philebus." DeWitt can provide most of that. But once you get familiar with how Cicero (and the other philosphers) were limiting the term "pleasure" to "sensuality," and how Epicurus saw fit to respond to that by emphasizing that there are only two feelings, and thus all feelings which are not painful come within "pleasure," then you are no longer trapped into thinking that the advocacy of "pleasure" means nothing more than tea parties and dreamy indulgence.

As Dewitt put it on page 240 of “Epicurus And His Philosophy” page 240 (emphasis added):

“The extension of the name of pleasure to this normal state of being was the major innovation of the new hedonism. It was in the negative form, freedom from pain of body and distress of mind, that it drew the most persistent and vigorous condemnation from adversaries. The contention was that the application of the name of pleasure to this state was unjustified on the ground that two different things were thereby being denominated by one name. Cicero made a great to-do over this argument, but it is really superficial and captious. The fact that the name of pleasure was not customarily applied to the normal or static state did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

And getting back to Jefferson, he too has really good advice:

I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up....

One more comment about the Jefferson connection. i too found it highly motivational to understand Epicurus as an influence on Jefferson and thereby as an influence on the development of American historical thought. But the significance by no means stops there. At some point you'll want to consider Nietzsche's interpretations of Epicurus (not all of which are consistent, unfortunately) and especially consider what Nietzsche had to say in his "Antichrist" about the influence of Epicurus and Lucretius on the entire Western world, rather than just on America. Jefferson reserved much of his appreciation for Epicurus for his private letters, but Nietzsche referenced Epicurus in public and in very challenging terms.

Quote from Nietzsche' Antichrist

The sneakishness of hypocrisy, the secrecy of the conventicle, concepts as black as hell, such as the sacrifice of the innocent, the unio mystica in the drinking of blood, above all, the slowly rekindled fire of revenge, of Chandala revenge—all that sort of thing became master of Rome: the same kind of religion which, in a pre-existent form, Epicurus had combatted. One has but to read Lucretius to know what Epicurus made war upon—not paganism, but "Christianity", which is to say, the corruption of souls by means of the concepts of guilt, punishment and immortality.—He combatted the subterranean cults, the whole of latent Christianity—to deny immortality was already a form of genuine salvation.—Epicurus had triumphed, and every respectable intellect in Rome was Epicurean—when Paul appeared… Paul, the Chandala hatred of Rome, of "the world", in the flesh....

Also for another far-reaching publicly-stated interpretation of Epicurus that has a Jefferson connection, be sure to read his friend's Frances Wright's "A Few Days In Athens." That's another highly interesting book that I myself might never have found without our Epicurean networking on the internet.

Thanks to your motivation posts, Al-Hakiim, I've set up a page here and copied over the resources from NewEpicurean. Hopefully they will be easier to use here:

Thomas Jefferson Resources - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Al Hakiim please comment when you can while reading and that will help us expand our Jefferson subsection. There's a great deal of explicitly philosophical material in those letters that deserve discussion.

In addition to the letters with Adams there is a lot of interesting commentary in the "Head and Heart" letter as well, in which I think he gives the "heart" - rather than rationalism - the better part of the argument.

I also found Jeffersons connection to "Thomas Cooper MD" very useful, given Cooper's explicit materialism. See thomascoopermd.com And there are all sorts of other figures of that period from Thomas Paine to Elihu Palmer and details of "deism" that have at least significant Epicurean overtones. Not to mention the explicitly Epicurean "A,Few Days In Athens," which Jefferson endorsed, and of which I am sure there is much more to the story than a one-off writing project by Frances Wright.

There's a lot more connection to Epicurus in that period than we've been led to believe.