Posts by Cassius

Glad to have you autoataraxic. When I search i don't bring up much other than an article written by Elli Pensa, a friend of ours in Greece a couple of years ago. I don't find any historic use of it from the ancient world.

My read of Elli's article is that it is sort of an artistic flourish but not intended to be a major philosophical point. Certainly Epicurus held that atoms are not living things, and I don't think he would say that the swerve of the atom is a living function either. Of course at some point life does "emerge" from the motion of the atoms through the void, and Lucretius talks about the swerve being related to "free will," so there is at least some relevance.

Probably going further in discussing this would be helped by a little background on your interest in it (?)

I suspect our friend Bryan here might have the best thoughts on usages, but thereagain knowing the context of your question would probably help.

AutoAtaraxic tells us:

Hi,

I was seduced by De Rerum Natura a couple of years ago and recently had a paper accepted for publication in which there was a strong influence of the atomic swerve in my understanding of the indeterminism of acts of dissensus a la Jacque Rancière's emancipatory philosophy. I'm also very interested in Epicurus notion of time as derivative, as the accident of the accident as Marx put in in his thesis on Epicurus and Democritus. I came across your website via the piece Clinamen Vitae - The swerve toward lived experience, where life is worthy of being lived, after researching the term Clinamen Vitae which links, I believe, to an indeterminate form of emancipation. As such, I thought I'd try to start up an account and engage more with your website.

Best,

Welcome Autoataraxic

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

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In recent discussions I came across two videos which I found useful in analyzing Schopenhauer. The author of the second of these two videos has also produced a video on Nietzsche vs Kant. i have viewed this and also found to be useful in understanding the basic issues in dispute that are relevant to Epicurus:

Thanks Raphael.

Quote from Raphael Raul

Schopenhauer is a philosopher who intrigues me with his main idea of the blind force of "The Will", a force that is outside of the phenomenal world of matter, a noumenal realm outside of our understanding.

What you mentioned is featured in the videos - especially in the second one where Nietzsche identifies this as a variation of Platonic idealism or contention that there is a "true world" or "real world" beyond this one, and to that extent it's hard to see that as compatible in any way with the Epicurean view.

What has confused me for so long is that apparently Nietzsche started out a big fan of Schopenhauer but hen reversed his position by the end of his life. In long years past I did not read much of Nietzsche other than "Thus Spake Zarathustra." At that time other than a few bits here and there that stood on their own, I hardly understood a thing he was saying. I had no clue whether the "last man" was supposed to be good or bad!

To the extent that the second video is correct lots if not all of the dispute comes down to the dispute as to whether we should affirm THIS world and THIS life as of supreme value to us, of go with Schopenhauer and see this life as a sickness or disease. It would seem that Nietzsche saw that "disease" point of view as a thread going all the way back at least to Socrates and Plato, continuing to today and leading to nihilism. I think I would pretty strongly share that view, but I would of course exempt Epicurus from that criticism. I would say that it is clear that Epicurus affirms this life and shares most of Nietzsche's attitude about making the most of this life as the only one we have. I have never much cared for the terminology of "will to power," but I can see parallels between that and Epicurus' extended view of the nature of "pleasure."

I think you will find those videos to be very well done. It's unfortunate that the second on contains some low-key advertising but I think it has the more valuable content of the two because of the way it frames the issues.

If anyone thinks they have time for only one of the two videos I would strongly suggest the second on on the Nietzsche criticisms. The strong parallels between Nietzsche's criticisms of Socrates and Plato will jump out at you as very similar to what most of us see Epicurus doing. The second video is helpful to us on its own, even without considering its relationship to Schopenhauer.

A LOT of issues come down to one's basic attitude toward life: Should we affirm life or deny life? I think the answer is clear but these videos help define the question by showing how two philosophers can disagree so starkly.

The topic of Schopenhauer is of some interest in comparison with Epicurus. Clearly Schopenhauer had some things to say of which Epicurus would approve, but it is arguable that Schopenhauer said much more of which Epicurus would disapprove. Our forum is targeted to those who are not professional philosophers, so to kick off the discussion I found two basic videos which I viewed and found to be extremely informative. Of course everyone should ask "Are they accurate?" so to the extent group members are familiar with these issues please comment if you think the videos are inaccurate. I found them extremely helpful, and presuming they are true, overwhelmingly clear about many basic differences between Epicurus and Schopenhauer, starting with basic assessments of the value of human life.

This first video is focused exclusively on Schopenhauer, and the narrator speaks such good German that it would be a pity to find out that it's not accurate. As far as I can tell, it's balanced and right on point. I'll state this caveat about both videos in this post: This is not an Anti-Schopenhauer forum, and our purpose here is not to condemn Schopenhauer but to use the information we learn in better understanding Epicurus:

After watching this first issues the good parts and the bad parts are pretty clear. The next video expands on these issues by explaining Nietzsche's criticisms of Schopenhauer. This is not a Nietzsche forum and our purpose here is not to become Nietzscheans - only to take from Nietzsche what we find supportive of our understanding of Epicurus. I find it starkly revealing compelling, but let us know in the thread if you think it's inaccurate:

I'm glad this topic has come up because in the space of these two relatively short videos I think we find a dramatic illustration of many of the issues we all have to decide in how we interepret Epicurus. To repeat here, our purpose in this forum is not to become experts on other philosophies, but to use the controversies they explore to deepen our understanding of Epicurus.

And in the case of these two videos here, I find that they tremendously deepen my understanding of numerous very key issues that were already inherent in what Epicurus was teaching.

AlteFrau I thought you might be interested in this quote which one of our participants brought to our attention just this week as to the way Epicurus himself dealt with pain:

Quote from Bryan

Yes that one was from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, 9.41

Epicurus says that "in my illness, my conversations were not about the feelings of my little body, nor was I chatting about such things [i.e., the illness] to those who visited. But, while studying nature, I continued with these topics, even while in that very state, [studying] how the mind – although partaking in such movements [painfully occurring] within my little bit of flesh – remains undisturbed, while preserving its own good."

Welcome AlteFrau! Thank you for the information and condolences on your father.

We've had some discussions on the forum recently that nudge me in the direction of letting you know that there are far more Nietzschean outlooks here than Schopenharuen, but that can wait. If you're familiar with Epicurus mainly because of his reputation as a healer of pain, that's understandable, especially given your recent events.

Over time I hope we can nudge you to the view that there are two sides of this coin, and that focusing on pleasure as the ultimate goal is sounder and more effective than focusing on relief from pain. But there is a time and a place for everything, and there are times when relief from pain is the understandable priority.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for taking an interest in it.

AlteFrau tells us:

This is to confirm my request for a new account.

I have always been interested in religion and philo. I am irreligious, so philo has been my go-to when wondering how to find meaning. Emotionally I am Schopenhauerian, but I have also read and re-read and re-read The Meditations and Epictetus. When I read Cicero's arguments against Epicureanism , however, I thought, Hold on, this sounds really good! Rather than strive (and fail again and again) toward The Good, why not move away from The Bad? So I decided to read everything I could about E and decided to live my life accordingly as much as possible. I don't live in a garden with friends, but I have attempted to align myself with E ideals. Last year my father died, and it was horrible. I moved into his little apartment for his last month while he was in hospice. We did not always have a good relationship. I was away from my husband and my Pomeranian, who was very old and sick at the time, and I cried a lot. But what got me through it was NOT being stoic and thinking about filial piety or being brave, but making the decision to move (emotionally) away from resentment and away from anger. My sister is a born-again xian and she had a harder time with this than I did because our dad was not a xian and she is now worried about his soul. But death is nothing, isn't it?

Anyway, that's my background with this.

Welcome AlteFrau

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Not commenting at the moment on the AI aspect but on this specifically:

Quote from TauPhi

Most people would choose to sacrifice their humanity for blessedness and incorruptibility

I don't see this as a productive way to state the problem. I would CERTAINLY like to be blessed and incorruptible presuming those mean having the power to pursue pleasures without end and never being burdened with sickness or death. Where we can improve either our minds or bodies we should. The devil is always in the details and I don't see retaining humanity to mean that we can't further expand our health and our life spans and even our ability to think.

And I don't think that Epicurus saw "living as gods among men"' being incompatible with that.

In another conversation Don has recently mentioned "Rorschach tests" and I think the Epicurean gods are one. We are all projecting what it means to be an Epicurean god and we're doing so in very different ways, and the divide on these issues can't be bridged without being very specific about what we are talking about. I don't think Epicurus saw anything incompatible between himself as a human and what he saw as Epicurean gods - we just don't have the medical/technical/etc ability to get there, but there's no theoretical barrier to getting a lot closer to their status. And that's why I think DeWitt made a key observation to point out that there is textual support for the view that Epicurus held that the gods must ACT to maintain their blessedness and incorruptibility.

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This week we will start around line 655 of Book One and we'll address several of the competitor theories as to what things might ultimately be made of if not atoms.

EpicureanFriends Side-By-Side Lucretius

Multi-column side-by-side Lucretius text comparison tool featuring Munro, Bailey, Dunster, and Condensed editions.

epicurustoday.com

Welcome to Episode 337 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we start are continuing our series reviewing Cicero's "Academic Questions" from an Epicurean perspective, which gives us an overview of the issues that split Plato's Academy and helps us understand Epicurus' position on the same issues. This week will continue in Section 8 of Book 2

Our text will come from
Cicero - Academic Questions - Yonge We'll likely stick with Yonge primarily, but we'll also refer to the Rackham translation here:

• Cicero On Nature Of Gods Academica Loeb Rackham : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

CelestineEyes tells us:

Hi,

I've been following Stoic philosophy for years and I was a coach with Albert Ellis 30 years ago. I've been studying epicureanism for a while and just recently got back into it. I live in Europe right now and I noticed that the eat drink and be merry is wonderful, but drunkenness everyday is never the solution. So lately I've been focusing more on dr Emily Austin's audios and similar messages. I'm 62 years old + I'm both American and Australian.

Welcome celestineyes22

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Todd

This is a straw man argument. Such a person would certainly choose a lesser pain as a means of avoiding a greater one.

Thanks for your comments. I don't think that is a straw man argument at all. It is exactly this part of what Epicurus says - that we DO sometimes choose pain to maximize pleasure - that is in issue.

I wouldn't normally think it necessary to point this out (that we sometimes choose pain) but it is being ignored by the "painfree" chorus, and even if mentioned at all only in an exceptional way, never clearly stated to be something we can and should do on a routine basis to maximize pleasure.

This thread is for discussion of the blog article "Living For Pleasure, Or Dying For Relief From Pain?"

Blog Article

Living For Pleasure, Or Dying For Relief From Pain?

[…]

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Is The "Emphasis" In Epicurean Philosophy On Relief From Pain?

In a separate article I have made the case that it is a major rhetorical and factual mistake to describe Epicurean philosophy as primarily about relief from pain. Jack Gedney, a writer on Substack, responded with an article referencing me and affirming his contention that pain relief is indeed the primary emphasis of Epicurus. The title of the second article changed the focus slightly from "primary" to "emphasizes," but Gedney…

Cassius

June 5, 2026 at 1:35 PM