Posts by Cassius

Wow that is very detailed and well thought out. Thanks for posting. I have just a couple of initial comments on first reading:

1. You appear to me the type of person to whom the DeWitt book would appeal and be very valuable. If you don't have it I hope you will get it.

Quote from Daniel188

16. Epicurus places pleasure as the goal of the good life. Pleasure characterized by ataraxia, or freedom from pain

The sentence or phrase "pleasure characterized by ataraxia or freedom from pain" I would say will need lots of elaboration because I would argue that all pleasure "is" absence of pain and placing " ataraxia in a central role without elaboration can lead to very dangerous tangents. Nature gives us only pleasure and pain, not ataraxia.

Quote from Daniel188

18. Some might argue that pleasure cannot be a goal and might set as a goal something abstract, such as virtue or some ideal unsupported by pleasure

Yes. I have personally modified my terminology over time to place less negative connotation on "abstractions" but I do think it is valuable to think about in terms of what is "real".

Quote from Daniel188

21. By focusing on abstractions, we become bogged down in logical and dialectical considerations, never achieving certainty. This is evident in how people can argue passionately about whether someone is "good" or "bad." Two different people can have two different perspectives on what is "virtuous," and if we ourselves strive for virtue, we must take these considerations into account since we treat virtue as an absolute. Ultimately, we will have trouble determining what to do

Same comment as above. Abstractions formed properly are very important and even necessary. Epicurean philosophy itself is an abstraction. It's probably more a question of how the abstractions is formed than the fact of being an abstraction.

Quote from Daniel188

25. The doctrine of ataraxia is also useful in thinking about pleasure. Ataraxia is a state of undisturbed well-being, free from physical and mental pain. It is useful because it allows us to examine our state and shows the limits of pleasure. It allows us to examine our state by directing us to reflect on what causes us pain. If we know which desires cause us pain (that is, interfere with our ataraxia), we can satisfy or suppress them depending on the circumstances and the nature of the desire

As indicated above I would now say that the better term for the goal is happiness or eudaemonia or Felicity and not ataraxia or even aponia. One of the most clear examples to use to consider that is that Epicurus said his last days were among his happiest but he was not without pain or disturbance. And if he has held "absence of disturbance" to be his primary directive he would have stayed home and tended a fig garden instead of leading a revolutionary philosophical movement that challenged every power structure of his day.

Thanks for posting!

Lot of work there and will take some time to read but thanks for posting!

I'm always stuck in the past with my word associations:

https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/28a7f1e9-a647-42e6-8a48-a70269be58db

From Lucretius, Bailey translations:

From Jefferson's outline of Epicurus in 1819 letter to William Short, referencing both happiness and felicity:

Syllabus of the doctrines of Epicurus

Feline is not related to Latin felix ("happy, fortunate, blessed").
It comes from a completely different Latin word: fēlēs (genitive: fēlis), which means "cat" or "wildcat."Etymology Comparison

Key Points

• The similarity in spelling (feli- vs feli-) is purely coincidental — a case of false cognate or folk etymology.
• Fēlēs (cat) is an ancient Latin word with no known connection to happiness or blessing. Its origins are uncertain, possibly onomatopoeic or from an Indo-European root related to "wild animal."
• Felix (happy) is thought to derive from an earlier root meaning "fertile" or "productive" (related to fēcundus "fertile" and fēcundus "fruitful"), which aligns with ideas of good fortune or blessing.

Seems like I recall some variation of felicity being used by Jefferson but I'll have to look further (these two charts are chatgpt):

Episode 312 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: " Word Games Are No Substitute For Reality."

Also in this thread as to the proper interpretation of words like "happiness" let's not forget another famous example of a Latin word used in similar meaning: felix.

Presumably Virgil understood Epicurus very well, so it's interesting that his famous line used felix in this context:

Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas - Wikipedia

Given modern association of felix with "feline" or cats I am not sure that helps much, but "Felicitations" appears to retain much of the same meaning, so it would be interesting to examine the Latin roots.

Welcome to Episode 313 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
   
We are closing in on the end of those portions of Tusculan Disputations that are most relevant to Epicurean philosophy today, so we'll pick up this week at Section 40 of Part 5.

Last week one of the points made last week was that while a lot of philosophy can be viewed by non-specialists as a word game, there are deep differences in the foundations of the different schools that lead to dramatically different conclusions about how to live. The words can begin to blur together, and the definition-games can become tedious, but it is extremely important to know what is behind the analysis of any viewpoint in order to judge the ultimate result.

This issue of whether virtue is the only good, or whether virtue is sufficient for happiness, has tremendous practical implications. Who or what gets to decide what "good" is? Who or what gets to decide what "virtue" is? Who or what gets to decide what "happiness" is? Behind the Stoic / Platonic / non-Epicurean viewpoint is this idea that there are supernatural gods, or supernatural ideal forms, to which we should look to tell us what to do rather than the sense of pleasure and pain which Nature gives to each of us individually. The choice of school you choose to follow is therefore going to have tremendous implications on your life individually, socially, religiously, politically, and in probably every way imaginable.

Let's also in this context go back and quote the way Cicero quotes Epicurus as to the sorites syllogism we used last night and the full context of it.

Cicero, Tusculan Disputations 3.41—42 (Usener 67, 69)

[Epicurus On The End] 'For my part I cannot conceive of anything as the good if I remove the pleasures perceived by means of taste and sex and listening to music, and the pleasant motions felt by the eyes through beautiful sights, or any other pleasures which some sensation generates in a man as a whole. Certainly it is impossible to say that mental delight is the only good. For a delighted mind, as I understand it, consists in the expectation of all the things I just mentioned - to be of a nature able to acquire them without pain... ' A little later he adds: 'I have often asked men who were called wise what they could retain as the content of goods if they removed those things, unless they wanted to pour out empty words. I could learn nothing from them; and if they want to babble on about virtues and wisdoms, they will be speaking of nothing except the way in which those pleasures I mentioned are produced.' (Long & Sedley - Hellenistic Philosophers)

We might want to repeat the "color gradient chart" to illustrate this.

When you playing with these Platonists and Stoics you're playing word games in which the dice are loaded and the games are stacked against you as much as any casino in Los Vegas or Atlantic City.

At some point we need to compare this to Rand's (Aristotle's) A = A A think is itself.

And let's also cite what Joshua mentioned from Lorenzo Valla:

Post

RE: Happy Twentieth of December 2025!

Here is that passage from Lorenzo Valla's De Voluptate:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/6012/

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/6013/

Joshua

December 20, 2025 at 8:31 PM

I thought we already had a thread on this in the forum but it looks like I was remembering an old exchange I had back on Facebook in 2015 as to Freyr and his sidekick Gullenbursti. I'll set up this thread mainly as a placeholder to start.

I'll also see if I can reconstruct more of the past discusion but I see it referenced in a NewEpicurean post from 2015 with this:

Today’s post is brought to you in part by Freyr, the Nordic god of pleasure AND peace, and especially his sidekick golden boar, Gullenbursti, to whose contemplation today I owe to Jason Baker! Jason has also provided these links for further research on possible Freyr – Epicurean connections:

Freyr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%…lse&h=PAQEDR7J2

Old Norse Religion in Long-term Perspectives

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3…%2F&h=1AQEgTZCC

Roman Riches in Iron Age Denmark – Ancient History et cetera

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%…lse&h=uAQG8cseL

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3…%2F&h=DAQHxEuI_

A tentative comparison of Greek, Roman, and Norse myths by…

It's possible that this is the main thread I remember from Facebook:

Epicurean Philosophy | I have always wondered why the pig is the symbol for Epicureanism | Facebook

I have always wondered why the pig is the symbol for Epicureanism. Wouldn't a symbol like the American Eagle be more dignified and expressive of the…

www.facebook.com

Hmmmm I just noticed in posting that last link that that thread is "closed."

Not sure what happened there - probably the thread and the reason for closing it needs a revisit at some point!

Ok I just scanned over that thread and now I expect that my subconsciously remembering it i part of the reason I responded to Daniel's initial post the way I did.

I'd put the Seneca quotation in a category similar to what I think Don (?) has cited in the past about Cicero exploring techniques for improving memory such as the "walk-through-the-house" (?) method. Nothing wrong with posting about that kind of thing at all.

If I'm remembering correctly most of the "concern' would probably be about pursuing certain specific "meditation" techniques such as are associated with eastern/buddhist ideas. I think Kalosyni and others know a lot more about issues there than do I.

At the moment however that doesn't seem to be the topic so we can defer those issues to another place and time unless/until someone wants us to open another thread on them.

i haven't closely studied issues involving meditation, but this discussion reminds me of that. I seem to recall we have one or maybe more threads with people talking about hazards of meditation at least in certain circumstances, so I will see if I can link one or more of those comments.

I'm probably thinking about this one from three years ago:

Thread

Meditation and Epicurean Philosophy (?)

Admin Note: This thread is currently closed.

There is no evidence that Epicurus or Epicureans practiced meditation. There are many forum members who have studied Buddhism in the past, and this thread remains here as a reminder to focus on Epicurean goals for how choices of what to do are based on the pleasure that they bring, or the relief from stress that they bring (and not as a kind of virtue/religious discipline to develop as it often becomes for Buddhists). -- October 17, 2024

…

Matt

January 9, 2022 at 8:01 PM

"Self-awareness" however is certainly something I agree is desirable, and I also know that I identify "lack of self awareness" as a huge problem.

Quote from Don

An interesting and worthwhile discussion. Welcome aboard, Daniel188 !

Yes Don is right there are all many aspects of this discussion worth pursuing, so thank you Daniel for starting the topic!

Quote from Daniel188

I apologize if I sounded arrogant. My intention was simply to try to convey something that helps me personally and can be adapted for various purposes. I find such a suggestion rather harmless. As for the issue of Seneca himself and his philosophical views, I assume that most people here understand the errors of Stoicism. I think this is an appropriate post for "Epicurean Life Strategies for Modern Times." Critiques of Platonic absolutes and providential order would fit into other categories.

No need for concern and I want to stress I did not intend to be harsh either. Your responses were excellent! I am constantly fine-tuning the tone and approach of the front page of the forum and our vetting process. I want to be sure that we are being clear about the differences between Stoics and Epicurus, and as we move into 2026 I am working towards making some of these differences even more prominent.

Again, welcome to the forum. Your answers show just the kind of awareness that we need in the type people who post here!

To elaborate on my post a little further, I note that D. tells us that he is "relatively new to Epicurean philosophy but am very eager to learn more and your site appears to have an amazing wealth of materials."

It's definitely possible to answer the question posed by the post in a positive way without implying that Pythagoras or Seneca have any merit in terms of any advice they might offer to Epicurean philosophy. However the elephant in the room is that Pythagoras was an awful influence on Greek philosophy, and the life of Seneca displays the worst aspects of adopting Stoicism as a guide, leading to the hypocrisy which Thomas Jefferson and Nietzsche and many others have condemned.

So maybe the first step in deeloping our skills in "self-awareness" includes being aware of who should and should not be cited and followed as being beneficial authorities and influencers.

Thanks for posting Daniel and welcome to the forum.

Quote from Daniel188

What do you think about all this?

Quote from Daniel188

Today I'd like to present a method for developing self-awareness that I originally learned from the Stoics. I believe this method can be used to pursue the Epicurean telos.

First of all in suggesting this, have you thought about what the Epicurean telos is and how it relates to setting a goal of developing self-awareness?

How would you explain that to someone who came across this post on the forum and thought to themselves: I thought this was an Epicurean forum, not a Stoic forum?

Since you are new here and others don't know "where you're coming from" in suggesting this, before we go too far with it there are fundamentals to examine. First, we should examine the thought process in how and when we can look to Seneca or to any other Stoic for anything other than gross philosophical malpractice and perpetuating the wrong approach to the nature of the universe and to living.

Very possibly you're much more advanced and better read than me or others here. However since there's no way for us at this point to know that, please explain your thought process in asking the question.

I've always been fascinated by thls chicken-or-egg line of reasoning:

Quote from Lucretius 5:181

Further, how was there first implanted in the gods a pattern for the begetting of things, yea, and the concept of man, so that they might know and see in their mind what they wished to do, or in what way was the power of the first-beginnings ever learnt, or what they could do when they shifted their order one with the other, if nature did not herself give a model of creation? For so many first-beginnings of things in many ways, driven on by blows from time everlasting until now, and moved by their own weight, have been wont to be borne on, and to unite in every way, and essay everything that they might create, meeting one with another, that it is no wonder if they have fallen also into such arrangements, and have passed into such movements, as those whereby this present sum of things is carried on, ever and again replenished.

I interpret the meaning of this to be that there was never a necessity for gods to have a pattern because the universe and it's process have always existed.

As for intelligence and concepts, paraphrasing the deWitt quote Joshua likes to cite, a universe with no design or intention or concepts of its own naturally produced beings who do have concepts and designs and intentions.

Sextus can argue that:

Hence in order to grasp human happiness we must first have the idea of god and deity, but in order to have the idea of god we must first have a conception of a happy man. Therefore each, by presupposing the idea of the other, is unthinkable for us.

But there's no reason to think that there was ever a "first" example of such a being, given that the universe's processes have been operating eternally. So the issue isn't "unthinkable" as Sextus alleges. In fact it's the contrary. What is unthinkable is that the processes we observe today of biological beings developing over time to produce intelligence and concepts and designs ever had a beginning. These processes are natural and therefore the "conceptions" we are talking about have always existed at innumerable places and times in the past, and will continue to do so eternally into the future.

It's Sextus and the intelligent designers who are starting from an unthinkable premise -- divine creation from nothing.

D Campell tells me that he is "relatively new to Epicurean philosophy but am very eager to learn more and your site appears to have an amazing wealth of materials. Thanks very much"

Welcome D Campbell !

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

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Welcome to the forum!

Don The following is from Long and Sedley Hellenistic Philosophers. I emphasized the last part with italics. I don't know that Sextus is correct that the entire issue is circular, but it's interesting that he is connecting these two issues (the meaning of happiness and the meaning of blessedness) and maybe the fact that he is doing so means that Epicurus did as well. The view might be unthinkable for skeptics like Sextus, but Epicurus was taking the view that there is apparently an innate aspect to knowledge of the gods.

Quote

#### Sextus Empiricus, Against the Professors 9.43—7

The same reply can be made to Epicurus' belief that the idea of gods arose from dream impressions of human-shaped images. For why should these have given rise to the idea of gods, rather than of outsized men? And in general it will be possible to reply to all the doctrines we have listed that men's idea of god is not based on mere largeness in a human-shaped animal, but includes his being blessed and imperishable and wielding the greatest power in the world. But from what origin, or how, these thoughts occurred among the first men to draw a conception of god, is not explained by those who attribute the cause to dream impressions and to the orderly motion of the heavenly bodies. To this they reply that the idea of god's existence originated from appearances in dreams, or from the world's phenomena, but that the idea of god's being everlasting and imperishable and perfect in happiness arose through a process of transition from men. For just as we acquired the idea of a Cyclops by enlarging the common man in our impression of him, so too we have started with the idea of a happy man, blessed with his full complement of goods, then intensified these features into the idea of god, their supreme fulfillment. And again, having formed an impression of a long-lived man, the men of old increased the time-span to infinity by combining the past and future with the present; and then, having thus arrived at the conception of the everlasting, they said that god was everlasting too. Those who say this are championing a plausible doctrine. But they easily slip into that most puzzling trap, circularity.

For in order first to get the idea of a happy man, and then that of god by transition, we must have an idea of what happiness is, since the idea of the happy man is of one who shares in happiness. But according to them happiness (eudaimonia) was a divine (daimonia) and godly nature, and the word 'happy' (eudaimon) was applied to someone who had his deity (daimon) disposed well (eu). Hence in order to grasp human happiness we must first have the idea of god and deity, but in order to have the idea of god we must first have a conception of a happy man. Therefore each, by presupposing the idea of the other, is unthinkable for us.