New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius
DJRazorback tells us:
I'm a retired business executive who has studied Stoicism in great detail, but now in retirement my philosophies on life seem more aligned with Epicurean beliefs, and I am interested in learning more and being part of the Epicurean community.
Thank you,
Welcome djrazorback
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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Thanks Max. Here's one way to get at some of these issues:
If there are only two feelings, pleasure and pain, which seems well established in the texts by Diogenes Laertius and by Torquatus in On Ends, then where does "Tranquility" fit into that scheme, and how would you say Epicurus defined tranquility?
Of course we want to go to the texts and not to modern commentary, but the direction of this question goes toward the analysis of David Sedley in his "Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics."
Thanks for the kind words Max and it's a pleasure to hear from you.
No doubt you've been reading somewhat on the forum and you've seen that we are a somewhat "opinionated" website, actually trying to build a community true to the ancient model and not just trading information.
In that regard I am very pleased to see the two articles you mentioned, and though I haven't had a chance to read them in full yet, they both seem to indicate a direction that would likely be consistent with what you'll find here. I think most of our participants would agree that "yes" Epicureans do engage in sex, and even marriage, and even having children, not a a universal rule but under the "right circumstances." And that we would do so, when those opportunities arise, because in fact our prime supreme goal is not in fact "Tranquility" but Pleasure, with tranquility being one pleasure - an an important one - but not the only pleasure or the highest, because pleasure includes all experience that is not painful, and that includes joy and delight as well as those that are more "stable." Most of us find it inconceivable that Epicurus would have provided in his will for female minors to be married to members of his school if he had thought he was sentencing them by necessity to a less than happy life.
And likewise as to your article on dying for a friend, most all of us embrace that as well, not just because of the importance to be placed on friendship, as stated throughout the texts, and specifically stated to have been Epicurus's position by Diogenes Laertius, but again because our prime directive is NOT "Tranquility' but happiness based on pleasure, and we are not going to sentence ourselves to living on when the pain of not dying for that friend (again under the right circumstances) would be worse than living on.
You're probably much more familiar with many of these issues than most of us are here, and I'm hopeful that you will be an "ally" on them 
Another issue that's regularly debated in general circles is whether Epicurus was simply "covering himself" with his views on religion so he would not have to meet the end of Socrates. Again on that issue, our community takes Epicurus' views on divinity seriously, and while that doesn't fit neatly under the category of "atheist" it does rule out belief in supernatural forces or that there are supernatural gods who choose to favor some people and condemn others.
It's both a privilege and a challenge to have someone like yourself here, because most of our new members have to wade through weeks or months or years to begin to see the importance of these issues, and you come to the table fully stocked - so to speak - with knowledge and opinions on these issues and more.
I hope we can explore some of these issues here in this thread and that you'll let us know your thoughts on these and other key issues which academics have opinion back and forth for so many years.
Again, thanks for taking an interest in the forum and we look forward to hearing more from you!
Welcome Max and glad to have such a distinguished person with us!
Dear Cassius,
I'm confirming that I registered for an account on Epicurean Friends. I mainly did so to let members of the community know about some scholarly articles I have forthcoming: one on why/how an Epicurean can die for a friend, and another on Epicurean approaches to sex. I'm also happy to provide some extra help with tracking down or translating sources if anyone needs; and I'd be happy to come on the podcast.
Wishing you well--and major kudos on your work popularizing Epicureanism! (In addition to being a scholar of Epicureanism, I do consider myself an Epicurean.)
Cheers,
Max DuBoff
Welcome Max DuBoff
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Welcome to Episode 340 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we start are continuing our series reviewing Cicero's "Academic Questions" from an Epicurean perspective, which gives us an overview of the issues that split Plato's Academy and helps us understand Epicurus' position on the same issues.
We are now in Section 9 of Book 2
Our text will come from
Cicero - Academic Questions - Yonge We'll likely stick with Yonge primarily, but we'll also refer to the Rackham translation here:
Despite this I find it very difficult to find places where I can provide a valuable input on the forum. I feel like most of my questions will eventually be answered by reading more.
Please don't hold back questions or thoughts! That's largely what we are here for and you've read plenty to have lots to say! Thanks for sticking with us!
Thanks wbernys you are right - I have fixed it now.
Episode 339 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Stoic Views of Knowledge And The Emperor's New Clothes."
I certainly can’t see this as consistent with Epicurus.
I don't see it to be consistent with Epicurus either, but it IS a good illustration (apparently) of how someone can use persuasive logic and reach disastrously wrong conclusions.
And I think that's why Epicurus held that it is not necessary (or perhaps even appropriate?) to construct elaborate logical arguments about why pleasure is the goal of life. It sounds like certain later Epicureans decided to try to do just that, and I wish we had more texts so we could judge how successful they might have been. But probably Epicurus was right that pure logic is not the best approach to this question, and that's one reason he warned against the improper use of logic.
Thanks for the cite there Pacatus.
Wow that is a good catch in the news!
After a long run with this thread, we are going to disable it unless and until we figure out how to stop including people who are long inactive on the thread. That will reduce the number of less-than-useful notifications all users receive.
To me, this is not the same question. As I understand it, the question is specifically regarding one's own life or death.
I could defend that being a related question in the sense that if you think life is not worth living in general then you're not likely to think it's a good idea to bring more children into the world. Strictly speaking I agree they are not the same question but I suspect the causes of one are related to the causes of the other.
nevertheless cling to it tenaciously, and live with the contradiction.
(Seems like an argument for psychological hedonism!
)
But sadiy and tragically, some don't, and they carry out what Lucretius mentioned some do .... which is why i don't accept the persuasiveness of PH -- but let's not get sidetracked on that.
Nice try Cassius but NO. I listened to part of the "debate" and came away with a yawn.
I'm glad you made that comment because I was not suggesting that people needed to watch that video to deal with this question. I thank Don for posting the link but I haven't been able to stomach Jordan Peterson myself enough to watch it.
I'm interested in the general commentary here. I presumed everyone would say "of course life!" but I'm not so sure any more that I should presume that.
It is quite possible to arrive at this conclusion without any logical inconsistencies.
I think you are right. Logic can be used in support of the idea that life is better than death, but it can also be used for the reverse. Ultimately it is not logic but FEELING which is the key element.
Such a person must be alive in order to say that, thus demonstrating their preference for being alive, and contradicting their claim.
Another excellent use of self-contradiction, showing that they are either not a consistent thinker or being intentionally misleading.
Presuming they are more on the "not consistent thinker" edge of the range, for reasons that we might choose to find sympathetic (so we continue to talk to them!) what else can be said to help them see that their position is damaging?
Or is this position so ingrained in the people who would ask the question in the first place that little help is possible?
I'm not trying to seed this just to start conversation but I can predict who among us might have some interest in this topic so I am going to go ahead and prod:
These are just three that come to mind, but I think this is a basic question that most all of us need to be prepared to answer (if we're not already).
I don't recall whether I got to watch that full debate last time but I'll get to it this time. Thankfully Jordan Peterson seems to be fading away. Hopefully we can express some of the issues in this thread for those who don't watch the video or just want to grapple with this directly.
