Posts by Cassius

We don't get far into this issue of "kalapsis" in this episode, but it came up in our background discussions and it's going to come up further in coming weeks. For that reason I have set up the following thread, and anyone who has time to help us move toward a layman's way of explaining the distinction betwen the Stoic and Epicurean approaches on "comprehension" will be appreciated. We're definitely going to need to have something of a working command over this before moving past Cicero's "Academic Questions" and proceeding to Philodemus' "On Signs."

Thread

Epicurean Prolepsis / Canonics vs Stoic Katalepsis

in coming weeks on the podcast we are going to be making a decision how much further to go into Cicero's "Academic Questions" and when to turn our attention to Philodemus' "On Signs."

A key aspect of when we will be ready to do that will involve our decision as to how much effort to put into Cicero's explanation of Stoicism, especially of their theory of knowledge involving "katalepsis." This is the theory which is famously explained by analogy this way: (from wikipedia quoting from "Academic…

Cassius

April 16, 2026 at 11:52 AM

in coming weeks on the podcast we are going to be making a decision how much further to go into Cicero's "Academic Questions" and when to turn our attention to Philodemus' "On Signs."

A key aspect of when we will be ready to do that will involve our decision as to how much effort to put into Cicero's explanation of Stoicism, especially of their theory of knowledge involving "katalepsis." This is the theory which is famously explained by analogy this way: (from wikipedia quoting from "Academic Questions.")

Cicero relates that Zeno would illustrate katalepsis as follows:

Quote

He would display his hand in front of one with the fingers stretched out and say "A visual appearance is like this"; next he closed his fingers a little and said, "An act of assent is like this"; then he pressed his fingers closely together and made a fist, and said that that was comprehension (and from this illustration he gave to that process the actual name of katalepsis, which it had not had before); but then he used to apply his left hand to his right fist and squeeze it tightly and forcibly, and then say that such was knowledge, which was within the power of nobody save the wise man.^[3]

My purpose in starting this thread is that in deciding how much of Cicero's explanation to read before we go to Philodemus, I think we need our own "working ability to explain" what the Stoics were really after. Of course their view of the universe is ultimately one of intelligent design, and they place huge reliance on "logic," so I think we can expect that katalepsis is going to be profoundly influenced by those viewpoints.

This is apparently in large or wholly contrast to Epicurus' view of the role of "prolepsis" in canonics, all of which is entirely natural and ultimately tests for truth against the sensations, anticipations and feelings.

We're not going to be able or want to become experts on every detail of this topic, but we need a working knowledge adequate to use analogies and give examples of the differences in approach.

In this post I'm not going to post any additional AI summary or links to other pages, but in this thread both of those are probalby going to be useful. I'd just like to restate the goal that sort of like with Torquatus' use of Chrysippus' hand analogy in "On Ends," we need to be able to give a coherent explanation of what this "kataleptic grasp" is supposed to represent.

Efforts to help get us there are welcome!

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Edit: there are many questions here, but before i close the post I note the final clause that this katalepsis is within the power of no one except the wise man. That in itself probably has huge implications, over and above what this imagery regarding the hands is supposed to mean.

Katalepsis - Wikipedia

Thanks Patrikios. It's always tricky to try to fit the "logic" arguments with the latest "science."

Going back to Sedley's Article "The Inferential Basis of Epicurean Ethics," I think there's a relationship here between Epicurus' decision to divide the entire physical universe between "matter" and "void," and the entire "feeling" universe between pleasure and pain.

Certainly there are many types of atoms and bodies, and many types of pleasures and pain. And Nature doesn't have an intelligent design which inscribes a book with those labels and blesses this decision to divide between matter or void and pleasure or pain. There's some kind of "proleptic" decisionmaking that tells us to do that rather than to try to categories - say - matter into five types and void into five types, and pleasures into five types and pains into five types.

It seems to me that this is the question of "universals" -- what is the justification for your categorization decision?

I'm gathering that Epicurus is resting his justification on the senses while also recognizing that he is reasoning. Like Jefferson says, the senses ultimately give us bodies moving through space. That's two things, and while it's important that ultimately the bodies be composed of indivisible atoms, it's really at the sense level that we divide things into to.

And on the feeling level it makes sense in the end to say that there's "desirable and undesirable" (pleasure and pain).

All of this revolves around the issue of whether this world of the sense is the real world, or whether there's a hidden "true world" set of forces or beings or forms behind it and directing it. Epicurus is showing that it is possible to construct a system that is totally consistent with our senses and feelings, but which operates without divine or other hidden forces directing it.

So from that perspective, I would expect that when Epicurus divided the universe between matter and void, the last thing that he would have accepted would be that there is some "third force" that sets everything in motion and keeps it moving.

So I am saying all that to agree with where I think you are going, which is that motion (or the capacity for motion) is something that is inherent in the nature of matter, and that all you need for motion is atoms (more than one) and space. I don't think Epicurus would have accepted conceptually that it is possible for there to be any force which ultimately does not derive/arise/emerge from one of the two categories - bodies and space.

And this is where I think there's a lot more discussion to be had of what "emergence" entails. If everything in the universe is composed of "atoms" and void, then *everything,* including motion/gravity/whatever, arises from the interaction of those two categories, with no other category possible or conceivable. if something "exists," it arises / emerges from "matter" and "void."

Sure it's possible to divide things into five or fifty categories of bodies or of feelings. But what Epicurus is working for, and what we need, is a manageable system of thought through which we can understand our place in the universe and from there how best to live. That's what analysis based on "atoms and void" and "pleasure and pain" gives us.

There's a second podcast which i haven't been able to listen to yet, but for which there is a full transcript here.

Couple of highlights:

The Failure of Epicureanism as a System of Belief

In the preface of Gateway to the Epicureans, Spencer Clavin asserts:

Quote

“Epicureanism has proven a total failure... the idea that Epicurus had that once we cleared away the religious horizon, we would all be free to live these contented, placid lives, I think that has been just totally refuted.”
[31:02]

Clavin critiques the inadequacy of Epicurean atomism in explaining the complexities of modern physics and the ethical shortcomings in addressing contemporary existential crises. He contends that the simplistic materialism of Epicurus fails to satisfy the human quest for meaning, contributing to widespread despair and societal issues like declining birth rates.

The Importance of Studying Epicurean Letters Today

Addressing the perceived obsolescence of Epicureanism, Spencer Clavin advocates for the continued relevance of Epicurus's letters:

Quote

“...unless you understand that you are swimming in water, you actually can't decide whether to get onto land.”
[34:03]

Clavin argues that studying Epicureanism provides critical self-awareness of the prevailing materialistic worldview, enabling individuals to evaluate and possibly transcend its limitations. By understanding Epicurean foundations, one can better navigate and critique the philosophical underpinnings of modern society.

it's episode 356 listenable directly at the link below.

The Great Books | Listen to Podcasts On Demand Free | TuneIn

Stream The Great Books free online. Listen to free internet radio, news, sports, music, audiobooks, and podcasts. Stream live CNN, FOX News Radio, and MS NOW.…

tunein.com

Good comments Steve and wbernys. As for Steve I hope you are that the claimed resurgence in Catholicism or old-line religion is overblown . I wonder if our much younger members here see any of this and whether they have any comment on whether they think the claimed renewed interest in Catholicism is overblown. Eikadistes ? Charles ? Any others I am forgetting who are younger, please let us know what you are seeing "out there" in your local situations. I have some minimal anecdotal contact with acquaintances that causes me some concern but it's really not much. I see it more on social media.

I have another article in the works more on religion in general , but I decided that since the Pope has been more in the news lately I might single out Catholicism first.

As for the article in general it applies equally to the "to young af heart"

This thread is for discussion of the blog article below:

Blog Article

In Troubled Times, Why Young People Should Turn To Epicurus Rather Than To The Pope

A friendly but direct word to young people searching for solid ground and thinking they might find it in the old but newly trendy Church

This article is also available on Substack.

Something is stirring among young people in the West, and it deserves to be taken seriously rather than dismissed. Bookstores, podcasts, and university campuses are buzzing with a renewed interest in traditional religion — and in particular, in Catholicism. Authors like Scott Hahn, Robert Barron, Trent Horn, and…

Cassius

April 15, 2026 at 11:34 AM

Here is one such thread but I am afraid it mostly goes off in other directions after Pacatus 's comment (which is more on point with the current question).

Post

RE: Thoughts and Discussion on Organizing Epicurean Community

Thoughts on Organization

The following are loosely adapted (and stripped down) from the “twelve traditions” perspective of AA and other 12-step groups:

1. The Epicurean Community (the “Garden”) exists for the common well-being and happiness of its members, as founded in Epicurean philosophy and based in friendship.
   
   
2. There is only one authority for the Community, and that is the Canon,* as it has evolved and is actively interpreted by the Community members themselves.
   
   
3. The only requirement for

…

Pacatus

February 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM

When Pacatus has time he may well have more comments on this.

Quote from Godfrey

Does this apply to widowers, too?

According to "our friend" Paul it likely applies to everyone!

I am warned that everyone will not get or appreciate the humor of my comment and it may take more effort to understand the play on words - but like on "Galaxy Quest" -

"Never Give Up! Never Surrender!"

Martin - Is this saying that a single atom in an infinite void would not move, but require the presence of at least one other atom for there to be attraction capable of resulting in movement?

If so that might reconcile how gravity results in motion but that nothing is required (no third category) other than matter and space.

Quote from wbernys

Reviews like this are why i don't bother reading anything critical of Epicurus anymore,

In case Wbernys' reference to "reviews like this" is not clear, it's a reference to the "Antigone" article by Spencer Klavan linked in my previous post.

Very good analysis Wbernys - and in this context I don't see any issues with that youtube link, which is just a short dramatization of how people oversimplify or caricature ideas they don't like.

Thank you Martin!

Very well stated response Wbernys -

Also, as to this:

Quote from wbernys

Epicurus saying that "Knowledge of sin is the beginning of salvation". Philodemus makes the same point in On Frank Criticism where he says "For how is he going to hate the one who errs, though not desperately, when he knows that he himself is not perfect and reminds himself that everyone is accustomed to err? R

Those are quotations we don't see very often. Do you have citations to those that readers can follow to verify them?

For some reason this following verse escaped my attention til now and I thought i would drop it here:

I guess we better be careful about recommending Emily Austin's book to widows!

1 Timothy 5-6: But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 5-6 - New International Version

Widows, Elders and Slaves - Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as…

www.biblegateway.com

As we continue to discuss some of these issues I want to restate what I think are ultimate issues in Epicurean physics from which no retreat makes sense:

The first issue is whether matter is INFINITELY divisible. Epicurus says no in part because of the logical contradictions that would be involved in accepting it. It matters not whether we are talking what we today consider to be "atoms" or "subatomic particles" or "quarks" or whatever term is applied from here to the end of humanity. Logically, at SOME point the divisibility must stop.

Another issue is whether matter is acted on by some OUTSIDE FORCE (other than that which (1) we consider to have real material existence and (2) empty space) to give it organization. That is the issue we are discussing in terms of "weight vs gravity' or other terminology. The question is whether matter requires some OUTSIDE force (not matter and not space, which are the two divisions of all things) to bring about its organization. Epicurus again says no. To accept such an outside force is to open the door to any sort of "divinity" or 'supernatural" that any mystic wants to suggest. It matters not whether what we are referring to as matter or material is hard bodies, energy, fields, or whatever, so long as it is repeatedly detectable and/or "measurable" by the senses and its technological amplifications

As I see it currently this pretty much sets the terms of the "nature of the universe" debate. Anyone here see that differently or able to state it better?

There is also this that Klavan has written on Epicurus:

All the Small Things: Epicureanism, Then and Now

SPENCER KLAVAN What really matters in the world?

antigonejournal.com

And here is how Claude summarizes his views:

Here is a detailed account of Spencer Klavan's evaluation of Epicurean philosophy, drawn from his published writings and his recent book.

Spencer Klavan on Epicurean Philosophy

Klavan has engaged Epicureanism more thoroughly than almost any other contemporary conservative commentator, having edited and introduced a primary-source anthology, written a feature essay for Antigone journal, and discussed the subject on multiple podcasts. His view is a mixture of genuine scholarly respect and sharp philosophical opposition.

1. He Sees Epicureanism as the Dominant Modern Worldview — and a Problem

Klavan's most striking thesis is that Epicurus is not a historical curiosity but the unacknowledged architect of contemporary secular liberalism. In his introduction to the anthology Gateway to the Epicureans, Klavan argues that Epicurus is "acknowledged or not — the source of secular 'woke' liberalism," and that the overwhelming success of modern science has turned what was once a fringe ancient philosophy into "the governing worldview of nearly everyone." Annie Blooms He quotes John Adams to drive home the point: "Two and a half centuries ago, John Adams complained, 'Our modern philosophers are all the low grovelling disciples of Epicurus.' That's even truer today." Annie Blooms

He identifies a whole constellation of ideas flowing from ancient atomism into the present: along with the new atomism has come "a whole constellation of fashionable Epicurean ideas: that peace and contentment are the most important things in life, that reality is an infinite expanse of multiverses, that divine power has no part to play in human affairs." Annie Blooms

2. He Takes the Epicurean Argument Seriously — on Its Own Terms

Klavan is careful not to caricature Epicurus. In his Antigone essay, he notes that Epicureanism "was (disappointingly) not the invitation to horny debauchery that has become associated with its name," but rather "a shot across the bow of the Socratic tradition, which agreed with conventional wisdom, at least insofar as it tended to view human life in the context of a divinely governed universe." Antigone

He summarizes the core Epicurean theological argument fairly: the trouble was not with belief in deities but with "the absurd presumption that such deities would ever give a moment's thought to mortals," citing Diogenes Laertius (Lives 10.123–4): "These assertions that people make about the gods are not innate convictions but inaccurate assumptions, which teach them that the gods do harm to bad men and reward good men." Antigone

He traces the argument's modern resonance, showing how Hume and Stephen Hawking are effectively channeling Epicurus, and takes this lineage seriously rather than dismissing it.

3. His Core Philosophical Objection: The Self-Defeating Logic of Cosmic Insignificance

Klavan's deepest criticism is not theological but logical. He targets what he calls "Cosmic Insignificance Therapy" — the modern Epicurean-derived self-help claim that our smallness in the universe should be relaxing. He identifies this as "Epicurean, through and through," tracing it back to Democritus' euthymia and Epicurus' ataraxia. Antigone

His objection is that this reasoning is self-undermining: "if small things don't matter, nothing does. There is no philosophically rigorous way to draw the line between things that are big enough to be consequential, and things that are not. Do cities matter, but not individuals? Do planets, but not countries? Quasars, but not quarks?" Antigone

He pushes this further: the physical consequences of Epicurean insignificance extend not just to seminar attendance but to "your marriage and family, your kid's first birthday, your parents' burial, your contributions to science or literature, your ancestry, your entire civilization, your species and your planet. Small, small, small." Antigone

4. His Counter-Thesis: Logos, Meaning, and the Socratic Tradition

Against Epicurean materialism, Klavan defends the Stoic/Platonic idea that a rational order (logos) governs the cosmos in a way that is attentive to human moral life. He argues that the very existence of the laws of physics "counts as further indication that the structure of our thoughts bears some relation to the structure of the cosmos," citing Einstein's ability to predict stellar phenomena from earthly reasoning as evidence that "some parts of our minds are structured not just in response to our local environment, but in conformity with the scaffolding of all things." Antigone

He closes by invoking William James: the fundamental article of faith is "that there is a truth, and that our minds and it are made for each other" — the very thing Epicurean materialism denies. Antigone

5. Summary Verdict

Klavan's position is that Epicureanism is intellectually serious, historically influential, and philosophically important to understand — but ultimately self-defeating. It begins by liberating humanity from superstitious fear and ends by stripping life of all significance. He regards it as the deep philosophical root of modern secular liberalism, which in his view is a civilizational crisis, not a triumph.

Primary sources:

• Klavan's Antigone essay (May 2025): https://antigonejournal.com/2025/05/epicureanism-then-and-now/
• Gateway to the Epicureans (his edited anthology): https://annieblooms.com/book/9781684515165
• The New Thinkery podcast episode on Epicureanism (Feb. 2025): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spe…i=1000696197986

Eikadistes apparently the preface contains commentary - not sure about other parts. In the podcast I linked he's very clear about his evaluation, but I'm not sure how much of that is actually in the book. Sounds like he's written other books that also advocate the "Faith-based" approach so it's likely his opinions about Epicurus are in several places.

Note - In searching my records I see that Bryan brought this book to my attention last year, but I failed to follow up and investigate further. So it's long past time to remedy that.

Branden thanks again for bringing the Klavan book to my attention. This is worth it's own thread so I have split those comments out here:

Thread

Klavan's "Gateway To Epicureanism" (Note: The Title Is Part Of A "Gateway" Series - The Author Himself Is Strongly Anti-Epicurean)

Hello, and thanks for having me. I especially was drawn into the graphic on the home page showing Epicurean physics + canonics = ethics. A book I was reading structured Epicurean ethics in that same way and I thought that made a lot of sense. The book was "Gateway to Epicureans". I will make sure to look over all of those resources and community standards!

Brandenoz

April 14, 2026 at 1:02 PM

Thanks again Brandon. I just finished listening to the podcast linked below in which Klavan was interviewed about this book. Worth mentioning first is that Klavan thinks that Epicureanism is something he would like to "demolish" and "eradicate." (Most of his own opinion appears around the 43 minute mark. I also recall him referring to it as garbage but that much be in another section,)

Now having said that, I want to at least recommend this podcast interview as well worth people here taking the time to hear. There is a lot of banter and fluff in the hour-long interview, but it's not Klavan's fault. The "Thinkery" podcasters sound almost as interested in joking around as being serious, but after a few minutes it settles down to being reasonably focused.

Klavan himself comes from a "faith" background (googling indicates father Jewish and mother some form of Christian but that could be wrong). I gather also that he is or was associated with "conservative" institutions such as the Claremont Institute. The interview cites Leo Strauss and others I am familiar with, so I think it's fair to describe him as coming from a "classical liberal" perspective. I don't gather that he is primarily Stoic or a particular religion but from a broad-based Platonic intelligent design perspective.

The interview spends considerable time with Epicurean physics, and here I strongly agree with Klavan's approach: The Epicurean view of the nature of the universe and "physics" is the basis on which everything else, including ethics, is built. If you think that modern science / math / geometry have disproven the core conclusions of Epicurean physics simply because what we can "atoms" are divisible, then you are going to reach Klavan's conclusion: Epicureanism in general is garbage and should be eradicated for all the damage that it does. And it makes no sense to try to defend the ethics if Epicurus' core conclusions about the nature of the universe are so fatally flawed.

Klavan is obviously very smart and well-read and he probably knows the standard view of Epicurus (which most of us here reject) better than most of our participants here. He even cited some Lucretian arguments (regarding the issue of whether sharp or smooth atoms cause bitter or sweet tastes) to explain part of Epicurus' sophisticated reasoning in defense of the senses. These are issues that he thinks are conclusive against Epicurus that we only rarely discuss here.

That's why I recommend anyone here who has the time to at least listen to the interview, if not the book itself. I still need to get my hands on that and see if there are excerpts worth reading.

But again if you can get past the fluff (as I did because I was driving) then Klavan himself knows what issues are important and how to cut to the chase on them. I think his core conclusions and evaluations of Epicurus are across-the-board wrong, but that's not to say that there's not a lot to learn from his commentary, just like we learn from Cicero and Plutarch, who he strongly resembles in the form of his criticisms.

As I understand what Brandenoz has written, the book itself does make an effort to cover at least some of Epicureanism in a balanced fashion, and apparently Brandenoz didn't come away from his contact with the book totally turned off to Epicureanism. That's one of the ways the "We are all Epicureans now" argument (made by John Adams as well) can lull people into complacency and misunderstanding (not referring to Brandenoz) . Probably there are a lot of people who are going to read this book and think that Klavan sounds fair and that his assessment of Epicurean philosophy should be believed.

That's a hazard of reading a book from someone who thinks that Epicurean philosophy is "garbage" and should be "demolished" and "eradicated." It's a shame he thinks that way, but this book and podcast give us an excellent opportunity to improve our own game in defending Epicurean philosophy.