Posts by Cassius

Dehorting -- that's a new one for me, but traces right back to the latin as opposite of exhort - which isn't so archaic!

Dehorting is the present participle/gerund of the rare/archaic verb "dehort".MeaningTo dehort = to strongly advise against something, to dissuade, or to urge someone not to do a particular action.

merriam-webster.com

It is essentially the opposite of "exhort" (which means to strongly encourage or urge someone to do something).Examples

• "His friends tried to dehort him from quitting his job impulsively."
• "The coach was dehorting the team from using risky plays."
• "Parents often dehort their children from dangerous habits."

Notes

• It's a formal, literary, or somewhat obsolete word derived from Latin dehortārī ("to dissuade").
• You won't see it in everyday modern English very often — "dissuade," "discourage," or "advise against" are the common replacements.
• It occasionally appears in older literature, philosophical texts (e.g., Hobbes), or as a deliberate stylistic choice for its precision.

So this is from Metrodorus and not Epicurus himself? Seems to me I hear this attributed to Epicurus so if it is not that is a misunderstanding that needs correcting.

TO PYTHOCLES:
Sent. Vat. LI (= Pap. Berol. 16369, col. II) [20]
You tell me that the stimulus of the flesh makes you too prone to the pleasures of love. Provided that you do not break the laws or good customs and do not distress any of your neighbours or do harm to your body or squander your pittance, you may indulge your inclination as you please. Yet it is impossible not to come up against one or other of these barriers: for the pleasures of love never profited a man and he is lucky if they do him no harm.

From Tau Phi's collection of works of Metrodorus:

PHILODEMUS, On Anger, col. XLV [7]

In fact, Epicurus makes clear in his First Appellations both that the sage “will experience rage” and (will experience it) “in moderation,” and Metrodorus, if he says “the rage of the wise man” in its proper sense, shows also that he feels it “very briefly.”

Tau Phi I have a question here - is this "dehorting" a typo?

PLUTARCH, Against Colotes, 34, 1127 d [5]
If those who abolish laws, governments, and polices of men subvert
and destroy human life, and if Metrodorus and Epicurus do this, by
dehorting and withdrawing their friends from concerning themselves
in public affairs, by hating those who intermeddle in them, by reviling
the first most wise lawgivers, and by advising contempt of the laws
provided there is no fear and danger of the whip punishment.

The following quote from Tau Phi's recent collection of quotations by or about Metrodorus is relevant to this topic of whether all things that have a beginning must have an end. It's also relevant to DeWitt's point that for Epicurus the gods are not supernaturally immortal, but as they too are compounded of atoms and therefore void they must act to maintain their existence.

PHILODEMUS, On Piety, fr. 122 [17]

Metrodorus too finds a defence in saying in On Gods and further in On Change that that which has no share of the void endures, but that every compound is destructible.

The following quote from Tau Phi's recent collection of quotations by or about Metrodorus is relevant to this topic of whether all things that have a beginning must have an end. It's also relevant to DeWitt's point that for Epicurus the gods are not supernaturally immortal, but as they too are compounded of atoms and therefore void they must act to maintain their existence.

PHILODEMUS, On Piety, fr. 122 [17]

Metrodorus too finds a defence in saying in On Gods and further in On Change that that which has no share of the void endures, but that every compound is destructible.

From Tau Phi's recent collection on the works of Metrodorus I want to add this here under a list of quotes relevant to emergence.

It is pretty confusingly worded, or confusingly translated, or both, but it seems to me to be pretty clearly talking about a mixture of canonics (thinking to establish their own senses by destroying those of others) and emergence (seeing that one is affected by one quality and faculty of it, and another by another.)

PLUTARCH, Against Colotes, 5, 1109 c [5]

And as for these symmetries and proportions of the pores, or little passages in the organs of the senses, about which they talk so much, and those different mixtures of seeds, which, they say, being dispersed through all savors, odors, and colors, move the senses of different persons to perceive different qualities, do they not manifestly drive them to this, that things are no more of one nature than another? For to pacify those who think the sense is deceived and lies because they see contrary events and passions in such as use the same objects, and to solve this objection, they teach,—that when almost everything was confused and mixed up together, since it has been arranged by Nature that one thing shall fit another thing, it was not the contact or the apprehension of the same quality nor were all parts affected in the same way by what was influencing them. But those only coalesced with anything to which they had a characteristic, symmetrical in a corresponding proportion; so that they are in error so obstinately to insist that a thing is either good or bad, white or not white, thinking to establish their own senses by destroying those of others; whereas they ought neither to combat the senses,—because they all touch some quality, each one drawing from this confused mixture, as from a living and large fountain, what is suitable and convenient,—nor to pronounce of the whole, by touching only the parts, nor to think that all ought to be affected after one and the same manner by the same thing, seeing that one is affected by one quality and faculty of it, and another by another. Let us investigate who those men are which bring in this opinion that things are not more of one quality than another, if they are not those who affirm that every sensible object is a mixture, compounded of all sorts of qualities, like a mixture of new wine fermenting, and who confess that all their rules are lost and their faculty of judging quite gone, if they admit any sensible object that is pure and simple, and do not make each one thing to be many?

Here is one of the many useful quotes here that we need to be able to find very often. Lately it seems like every mention of Epicurus is accompanied by the assertion that he lived on bread and water (they like to throw in ....and a little cheese) when in truth nothing could be further from the truth or make less sense for Epicurus to have done. What does make sense, here as Seneca says, is that at intervals Epicurus would test his ability to remain happy while eating little, much as we might train through exercises of any sort to be at the top of our games in anything we do.

SENECA, Epist. ad Luc, 18, 9 [11]

Even Epicurus, the teacher of pleasure, used to observe stated intervals, during which he satisfied his hunger in niggardly fashion; he wished to see whether he thereby fell short of full and complete happiness, and, if so, by what amount he fell short, and whether this amount was worth purchasing at the price of great effort. At any rate, he makes such a statement in the well known letter written to Polyaenus in the archonship of Charinus. Indeed, he boasts that he himself lived on less than a penny, but that Metrodorus, whose progress was not yet so great, needed a whole penny.

Outstanding Tau Phi thank you! I'm setting this up in the files section now and will post the link below.

File

The Life And Works of Metrodorus of Lampsacus

Tau Phi's Collection of the Works of Metrodorus.

Cassius

July 21, 2026 at 9:49 PM

Quote from wbernys

i want to know if Cassius finds this acceptable or in line with new policy.

I have no problem at all with anything that you wrote as being consistent with the policy. As you state in your last paragraph it is difficult and controversial to decide which pleasures are actially kinetic and katastematic in the first place. On the other hand evaluating the "duration" of a particular pleasure is relatively easy, and that's why I strongly encourge discussion of these issues to be in English.

But the key point is that whatever those two words meant to Epicurus, it's clear that he embraced both of them as part of a happy life, with "a life of happiness being a life of pleasure." The problem comes only when people start qualifying "a life of happiness is a life of pleasure" by modifying it to say "a life of happiness is a life of _______ pleasure" or worse yet - "a life of happines s is a life of tranqulity" or "a life of happines is a life of ataraxia" or any other formulation that implies that some concept other than pleasure is actually the supreme good. The worst aspect of the problem is when people become convinced that a particular activity or condition is "katastematic" and they elevate their interpretation of that particular activity or conditon to being what Epicurus "really meant" instead of the broader word pleasure.

Even the experts cannot agree among themselves exactly what function these words are performing, and even using English words to describe them as stable, restful, or enduring doesn't solve the problem. "Studying nature" as Epicurus emphasized as key to his own happiness seems very arguably to be a pleasure of action ("studying"), as are those pleasures that he arrayed against his pains in his last days.

It's true that all this may be more of a "rhetorical" point than anything else. The real objective of all of this is to emphasize the "promotion" and "teaching" function of Epicureanfriends. The policy is intended to make sure that the clarity of the objective being pleasure is not lost by substituting something else as the "supreme good." That was the original intent of the "Not NeoEpicurean But Epicurean" statement when we drafted it over ten years ago. We've included that statement somewhere on the front page and in every welcome point to every new member for as far back as I can remember, but it's clear that not everyone is reading it or taking it to heart. That's what the recent postings are intended to help fix.

But in sum William -- to repeat my response to your question -- what you've written seems fine to me.

Welcome to Episode 343 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we are continuing our series reviewing Cicero's "Academic Questions" from an Epicurean perspective, which gives us an overview of the issues that split Plato's Academy and helps us understand Epicurus' position on the same issues. This week will continue in Section 11 of Book Two.

Our text will come from
Cicero - Academic Questions - Yonge We'll likely stick with Yonge primarily, but we'll also refer to the Rackham translation here: Cicero On Nature Of Gods Academica Loeb Rackham : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Episode 343 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "In The Search For Knowledge, Is 'Probable' Good Enough?"

Glad to have you!

Aristos tells us this:

I'm from Serbia, and I'm 30 years old. I'm a food technology engineer by profession, with a wide range of interests and hobbies related to cooking, beverages, metalworking, 3D printing, and many other pursuits.

I've been studying philosophy independently for almost ten years, primarily for my own personal development and understanding. During that time, I've devoted serious attention to many philosophers and philosophical traditions, hoping to find a coherent system that could offer convincing answers to some of the fundamental existential questions.

Epicureanism fascinates me for many reasons, especially when viewed from the perspective of more than two thousand years of intellectual history and the development of the Western philosophical tradition. What I find particularly remarkable is how many Epicurean ideas can be examined - and in many cases even supported through modern science, which serves as an important reference point for evaluating philosophical claims that ancient thinkers first proposed through observation and insight.

I'm interested in every discipline of Epicurean philosophy, partly because I already have some background in epistemology, ethics, metaphysics, and related fields. My goal is to study Epicureanism as a complete philosophical system rather than as a form of popular psychology or a simple remedy for anxiety or identity struggles.

I'm looking forward to learning from the community and participating in thoughtful discussions.

Best regards,

Aristos

Good to hear from you Charles.

If we can't be clear in Epicurean philosophy about the centrality of pleasure, we don't need to be talking about Epicurean philosophy at all.

Might was well also forget the positions on gods and death - which not coincidentally is exactly what a lot of the videos in my "World's Worst Epicurus Videos" thread are doing.

Welcome Aristos

There is one last step to complete your registration: All new registrants must email Cassius so that this Welcome Thread can contain basic information about your background and interest in Epicurus. In that email, please tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. All posting here is subject to our Community Standards, Participation Levels, and Posting Policies -- please read that page; it explains our ground rules and will save everyone time and friction.

ALSO - AS OF JULY 16, 2026, the Forum has instituted a new editorial policy as to the advocacy of anything other than Pleasure as what Epicurus taught to be the supreme good. All prospective members must read this post before proceeding with an account at Epicureanfriends.coom:

Against Katastematic Supremacy - Pleasure Is A Unified Good, Not A House Divided Against Itself - INCLUDES FORUM EDITORIAL POLICY

The Current Establishment View - Which It Is the Editorial Policy Of EpicureanFriends.com to Reject

With only a few notable exceptions, practically every modern account of Epicurean ethics repeats the same claim: Epicurus divided pleasure into two distinct kinds, ranked one above the other. Pleasure, like a house, cannot stand if it is divided against itself — and that is exactly the structure this traditional reading imposes on it. On this traditional view, kinetic pleasure covers everything…

Cassius

July 16, 2026 at 2:06 PM

If you have not done so already, please be sure you have read Torquatus' Presentation of Epicurean Ethics (also available in a more compact side-by-side format at EpicurusToday.com). That is the clearest, most complete statement of Epicurean ethics to survive from antiquity, and reading it early will save you -- and us -- a great deal of confusion. Most people arrive with a version of "Epicureanism" assembled from the Tetrapharmakon, the Letter to Menoeceus, or scattered quotations of questionable reliability -- and of the three, the Tetrapharmakon is the least reliable foundation of all. It is many times more compressed even than the Letter, and terse enough that it has been read in sharply different, sometimes incompatible ways by different interpreters; at best it serves as a reminder of Epicurus's four main topics for someone who already knows their content, not as a source of that content. The Letter to Menoeceus is a real summary, but it too is compressed and was written for students who already understood the foundations of Epicurean ethics. Torquatus is the best surviving example of how Epicurus's own well-educated students understood and presented that foundation themselves. It is the fastest and most reliable way to find out whether what you already believe about Epicurus matches what he and his school actually taught.

The moderators here are well aware that many fans of Epicurus hold sincerely-held views about what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with this forum's purpose. This forum exists specifically for people committed to classical Epicurean positions, not for reconciling those positions with modern "eclectic" reinterpretations that borrow Epicurus's name while rejecting his actual conclusions. Reading Torquatus first is the quickest way to see where that line falls, before investing time in posts that argue against the very foundations this forum exists to defend.

All of us here arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies. We don't demand of others what we weren't able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is different enough from most other philosophies that understanding how deep those differences run simply takes time. That's why we have participation levels that give new members room to learn, but it's also why we have standards that can mean arguments being limited, or participants removed, when the purpose of the community requires it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, isn't committed to unlimited free speech within its own meetings, and isn't organized around anything except the pursuit of truth and a happy life through pleasure as Epicurus explained it.

Please tell us a little about your background reading Epicurean texts, how you found this forum, and what particularly interests you -- that context helps us help you. Our Getting Started page also has ideas for using the site.

Beyond Torquatus, two books will do the most to deepen your understanding quickly. Norman DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy is the single best book-length treatment available. DeWitt treats Epicurus as a coherent system rather than filtering him through later Stoic, Platonic, or modern secular assumptions. If you read one book beyond the ancient sources, make it this one.

Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life is a clear, engaging modern introduction that many of our members have found a useful on-ramp. Read it, but read it alongside Torquatus and DeWitt rather than in their place, since like most modern treatments it makes no attempt to give the full picture that DeWitt provides.

From there, Epicurus's own surviving letters -- to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus -- and Lucretius's On The Nature of Things are also on the essential reading list. Our Recommended Reading page has a fuller list for when you're ready to go further. None of this is required before you participate, but the more of it you've read -- starting with Torquatus -- the more you'll get out of being here.

Welcome to the forum!

This thread is for discussion of the article:

Blog Article

Too Long Unpraised And Unappreciated - Aulus Gellius And The Clearest Ancient Testimony That Absence of Pain Means Nothing More Than Pleasure

[…]

Centuries of commentators have treated this and similar statements as an invitation to make something other than pleasure the real goal of Epicurean philosophy -- a neutral resting state, a merely negative condition, a "tranquility" or "static pleasure" standing above and apart from pleasure as ordinarily understood. The clearest evidence against that reading does not come from an Epicurean apologist. It comes from a Roman grammarian with no stake whatsoever in Epicurean ethics, writing…

Cassius

July 20, 2026 at 9:47 AM

Looks to me like the same person is generating these - and apparently isn't through yet -

"I want my life of pleasure to be stable and established."

Does a sentence like that serve as a bullet train to living on bread and water and denouncing pleasure? Or does it simply remind you that you want your "life of pleasure" -- the life that Diogenes of Oinoanda and Torquatus explictly state to be what Epicurus taught as the meaning of happiness -- to be complete and stable and enduring?

Why would anyone take that expression - with simple and unthreatening adjectives like "complete" and "enduring" -- and then conclude from it "what I want is not really pleasure at all!"?

They wouldn't - unless they have another agenda besides recognizing Pleasure to be the supreme good. While I don't think anyone here does that, I am completely sure that what has motivted comprimisers for hundreds of years - from Gassendi on down to today - is a desire to apologize for pleasure and make it acceptable to the religious and moralistic orthodoxy.

Quote from Bryan

However, it is also clearly true that a single brick -- or even a huge pile of bricks -- is not as good as a whole stable and established brick building.

That would be exactly the analogy I seek to use with the "full cup" of pleasure and what I take DeWitt's "fullness" argument to mean. Yes you want your life to be 100% pleasure and 0% pain, and you want it to stay that way, neither needlessly below the rim (due to the presence of pain) or sloshing over the rim (causing intrustio of pain due to the sloshing). But no matter what perspective you look at the vessel, what it is full of is real tangible experiential pleasure. Or using the other analogy, when you build a house of bricks you have something more desirable than a pile of bricks, but you would be a fool to then think that you have freed yourself from reliance on bricks. You don't need a greater quantity of bricks when you finish building a house in the same way that you don't need a greater quantity of pleasure when your life is 100% full of plesure.

But who would be such a pinhead or so stupid -- when you have a completed house or a full life of pleasure -- to go on a campaign apologizing for, or talking down, or even outright dismissing, the value of bricks or pleasure???