Posts by Cassius

Quote from Kalosyni

Could the word "wise" be used here instead?

Clearly wisdom is the presumption here, but the grammar and the historical usage that Don has cited probably requires something else.

Good list of various translations - thank you! In this case I'd lean toward one of the latter. Each of them would or could have more consistent implications for being Epicurus' version of explaining how virtue and happiness go hand in hand and how the wise man can always be happy. I could see that especially when you consider how the very next doctrine is a reference to how virtue is essential to happy living.

One way of looking at the first four, leading up to five, is that these are the virtuous way to always be happy, and that this is the true virtuous path to happiness rather than a disreputable one.

I especially think of how Epicurus explains in the letter to Menoeceus explains that it is the Epicurean who has a holy opinion of the gods and is not impious. It's the Epicurean who really understands the virtuous / honorable position on these issues.

Cicero may be right in Tusculan Disputations in asserting that the question of whether virtue is sufficient for the happy life / how the wise man is always happy is _the_ central question of philosophy. If so this would not be something Cicero himself came up with but he's simply carrying that opinion down from his heroes Pythagorus - Socrates - Aristotle.

If this was in fact seen as the central question in Epicurus' time too, then the framework of the PDs would be to illustrate the virtuous position on these issues (gods. death, pleasure, pain). The virtuous person has these correctly-understood approaches to the central questions and can always be happy through this understanding.

That would lead to the preference for the translation being NOT that these views of pleasure and pain are "easy," but that they are "honorable," "competent," or "thorough" in the sense of thoroughly atttainable .

Quote from Don

At risk of being a broken record, is important to remember that the first two lines are *not* commands. They're not in the imperative: "Don't do this." They are statements of fact:

You're not a broken record on this at all.

This part let me be clear I don't say sarcastically at all --- I just look forward to the day that your translation prevails over Wikipedia consensus!

This is a large part of what we are up against!

Don also what about the "easy" part -- do you agree with Wikipedia that "easy" is a fair translation, or would you modify that as well?

Welcome to Episode 309 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
   
We'll pick up this week at Section 11 of Part 5 of Tusculan Disputations. Here Cicero's student points out that Cicero has been contradicting himself in his own books as to the significance of the different positions on whether virtue alone is sufficient for happiness.

Cicero - Tusculan Disputations - EpicureanFriends Handbook

The heart of this argument is going to reveal how the line of non-Epicurean Greeks including Pythagorus/Socrates/Plato and the others listed here insist on finding the good only through their divinely-ordained reasoning of the mind:

Quote

But the human mind, being derived from the divine reason, can be compared with nothing but with the Deity itself, if I may be allowed the expression. This, then, if it is improved, and when its perception is so preserved as not to be blinded by errors, becomes a perfect understanding, that is to say, absolute reason, which is the very same as virtue. And if everything is happy which wants nothing, and is complete and perfect in its kind, and that is the peculiar lot of virtue; certainly all who are possessed of virtue are happy. And in this I agree with Brutus, and also with Aristotle, Xenocrates, Speusippus, Polemon.

I've now posted the episode and in finalizing the title I realized that the proper name is tracing these four ideas from the Principal Doctrines to the Tetrapharmakon to Cicero's Epicurean SpeakerS" - but we only mentioned Torquatus. For those reading this thread in the future a complete treatment of this as to PD01 and the correct view of the gods would necessarily include what Velleius had to say in Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods."

Episode 308 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Tracing Four Key Ideas From the Principal Doctrines to the Tetrapharmakon To Cicero's Epicureans"

A reference from this podcast for those who don't know it. I am amazed that in a quick look for "how sweet it is" with Jackie Gleason this is the only one i find. I know there must be hundreds more:

This podcast will be released later today. In the meantime another note:

In discussing the tetrapharmakon i make the comment around 28 minutes in that people often have a problem with the use of the term "easy" as it applies to the good being easy to get and the bad being easy to endure.

In connection with other points being made in recent episodes, I am going to explore over time this possibility that i have not ordinarily stressed:

(1) it is clear that Epicurus saw the need to address the challenge made in Philebus and other places that the highest good must "have a limit" as stated also in PD03.

(2) I have previously taken the position that Epicurus was meeting that challenge by stating that when all pain is eliminated that is by definition or theory the limit of pleasure, and I do continue to think that makes sense.

(3) In the past however I have dismissed this argument as having further implications and therefore did not apply it further, and that led me to the tendency to dismiss the argument as having any real merit on its own.

(4) However on thinking further I now begin to believe that Epicurus did not mean to diminish the importance of the argument, and that he in fact embraced it himself in his own presentation.

(5) By now in this list my direction is probably clear: of course this tetrapharmakos wording was not as far as we know from Epicurus himself, so the "easy" is what is suspicious. I now want to explore the possibility that the real meaning of what is captured here is not that what is good is necessarily "easy" to get, but that what is good (pleasure) is "attainable" because in fact it is graspable in full, it "has a limit" that enables it to be grasped.

(6) the same will go for pain in the fourth leg. The point would not be that the terrible is "easy" to avoid or endure, but that it is in fact "attainable" to endure it because it too has a limit - it cannot remain forever because death will terminate even the worst pain.

Epicurus never says in PD03 or PD04 tha what is good or bad is "easy" to reach. That's an overlay of the tendency of some people to focus on "absence of pain" as being akin to nothingness and therefore "easy" to obtain. The argument Epicurus is addressing, and then picking up for his own use is clearly different from that. The point is more likely to be that what is truly good and bad in life is not some fantasy of idealistic divine perfection, or evil in the sense of a supernatural force or eternal punishment in hell. What is true is instead that the good (pleasure) is attainable, and the bad (pain) is avoidable, because they "have a limit" which cannot be exceeded.

This line of thinking would parallel other recent comments I have made that, as Torquatus is stressing, the key to the understanding of the natural and necessary desire analysis is that it helps to analyze whether the goal of the desire is in fact attainable, and therefore reasonable to pursue, or in fact unattainable, and therefore unreasonable by definition to pursue.

The fact that most people fail miserably in achieving happiness and avoiding disaster is proof that none of this is "easy," and I don't think Epicurus would have agreed with that kind of phrasing. I doubt Epicurus considered at the end of his life that all of his efforts to build his school had been "easy" at all, and in fact I think he would have resented the implication.

Most of us are continental USA but Northern Europe is in a strong second place. Welcome aboard!

Of course Epicurus likely would have agreed with the conclusion and at least some of the reasoning, but his primary approach on gods was significantly different.

The riddle is based on pointing out contradictions in someone else's argument which certainly can be effective as far as it goes, but it still leaves you hanging on what the truth really is, as you are pointing out as to "the problem of evil."

I think you are right to sense that a physics argument is more important, and Epicurus also combines it with an argument based on how the human mind works.

Those are positive assertions you can verify for yourself whether they make sense to you or not. Pointing out contradictions in someone else's argument is helpful for debunking false claims, but Epicurus was not content with debunking alone.

We want a position on what is true, not just on how many millions of arguments are wrong.

It's sort of ironic but the position that there is a truth out there that can be found isa point of commonality between Stoics and Epicureans. They simply disagree profoundly on what that truth is.

Brief info on Tony is that he was raised catholic and came across Epicureanism when studying history. He's read and studied his letter to menoeceus, his texts on physics and 'on the nature of things', as well as his last wish. He's particular interested in Epicurus' ideas on death, justice, the myths and pleasure

Tonight we had a spirited discussion on several options for interpreting this doctrine. I see that we don' have FAQ entry on this and now would be good time to construct one.

We clearly have some divergent opinions on how to interpret this one so I'll prepare a FAQ entry listing the various contenders for most likely interpretation.

If you have current thoughts on how to distill this doctrine down into a succinct form that provides reasonably clear guidance to a new reader, please post in this thread and I'll update the FAQ as we go forward.

Everyone pretty much asks the same question, something like this:

How do I know what desires fall into the various categories of natural and necessary desires, and are there hard and fast rules about how to apply the resulting categorization of a particular desire I am considering?"

Tony has emailed me -- Welcome!

Welcome Tony Fox

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Somehow I missed this earlier today. Yes, happy birthday sanantoniogarden

I'll be adding some notes as I make while editing this episode. Thist first note also relates to recent comments about natural and necessary desires and how one of the key aspects of the unnatural / unnecessary category is that they CANNOT be satisfied.

I probably did not emphasize the "limit" issue enough in comparing PD3 to what Cicero is saying. I think there's definitely a parallel between PD3 and what Torquatus says:

Quote

PD03. The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.

Torquatus in On Ends Part 1 - XII. Again, the truth that pleasure is the supreme good can be most easily apprehended from the following consideration. (3) Let us imagine an individual in the enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily, with no pain to thwart or threaten them; I ask what circumstances can we describe as more excellent than these or more desirable? A man whose circumstances are such must needs possess, as well as other things, a robust mind subject to no fear of death or pain, because (2) death is apart from sensation, and (4) pain when lasting is usually slight, when oppressive is of short duration, so that its temporariness reconciles us to its intensity, and its slightness to its continuance. When in addition we suppose that such a man is (1) in no awe of the influence of the gods, and does not allow his past pleasures to slip away, but takes delight in constantly recalling them, what circumstance is it possible to add to these, to make his condition better?

Both of these underlined sections from Torquatus are making the point that after you reach the desired status then it cannot be made "better" or "more excellent."

As I think about it now that's probably the best way to understand the "limit of quantity" reference in PD03, and how it relatest to the "variety" issue. Certainly longer time allows for more pleasure in terms of time, and someone could argue that more time allows for more "quantity" of pleasure.

The ultimate point seems to be that the definition of the "best" feeling of pleasure is when pleasure is not accompanied by any pain. That fits nicely with the additional point no extra amount of time allows for pleasure that is "better" or "more excellent" than the pleasure we can experience here and now. And it's a target or a theoretical goal as much as anything else, because we can still be "happy" even if we don't always or even ever reach the point of eliminating all pain. As evidence for that we have Epicurus saying that he happy even during his final sickness and Diogenes Laertius and Cicero saying that Epicurus held that the wise man can be "happy" even under torture.

if indeed this is Torquatus' way of expressing PD03, and I think it probably is, then I'd say that this is a much more understandable-to-modern-ears way of saying it.

Happy Birthday to sanantoniogarden! Learn more about sanantoniogarden and say happy birthday on sanantoniogarden's timeline: sanantoniogarden

By the time I post this message version 2 of this video will be live, with a significantly improved voice. It's still far from perfect, but much better.

Not as an apology but as a statement of fact, Hollywood-quality video doesn't spring into existence overnight. It's going to take a process for those of us who are interested in producing these things to get better and better, and enlist more and more sophisticated technology, over time.

One way this may work is to treat the interim steps as learning exercises every step along the way. Hearing and seeing even a less-than-perfect video can allow us to better imagine what a superior effort might look like.

Not the least of the issues to resolve is the text of any such presentation. An infinite variety of choices are possible, and among the most difficult is that of choosing whether to present to an existing educated fan-base of Epicurus, or to target the presentation more simplistically to convey key points to those who are not currently aware of the details.

Obviously this video currently caters to potential "future" Epicureans more than to those of us who have read the original texts many times.

More changes are coming as we get closer and closer to something really usable. I've received some very helpful suggestions already in private conversation on the technology side of the video, and though I can't promise to incorporate everything (the "too many cooks in the kitchen" and the "camel as a horse designed by committee problems) every comment good and bad is valuable.

Once I get the TTS engine further improved it will be time to ramp it up and produce reasonable (and free) public domain media versions of Lucretius and other core texts that would not be practical for us to record with a live speaker.

Oh no, I am not sure we can handle two participants from Poland!

You'll have to speak with TauPhi

Glad to have you with us Daniel!

Daniel has written to me today so I think we'll hear from him very soon. Please post first in this thread Daniel -- thanks!