Posts by Titus

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from EyalA

I held a stoic-platonistic view for about 5 years. Gradually it began to trouble me that i see others as deviating from the true nature, and the society i live in as an abberation.

Indepentently from your post, I started reading articles about Platonism a few days ago and I'm interested in how you applied your former philosophical views in your real life. I have been heavily relying on Epicurean philosophy for more than a decade and what I really like is the practical side of Epicurus' teachings which guides me on a daily basis. So I'm interested in what the implications of your former stoic-platonic worldview were.

Welcome on board!

Quote from EyalA

It helped me complete my philosophical ideas which stem from process philosophy.

Sounds interesting! Would you like to add more details?

Quote from Kalosyni

I must be still affected by my upbringing as a child, which was strict Christian fundamentalist, and they would end the church service by asking if anyone wanted to become "saved" and which was understood as "saved from hell"...so it was an appeal to the desire to remove the pain of uncertainty after death.

I am sorry for underestimating the influence that religious views seem to have - perhaps I've been to long outside of the discourse.

Quote from Cassius

Saying that "You're doing what you're doing - whatever you're doing - because you think it will bring you pleasure" does not seem to me to be a very helpful way of looking at much of anything. I realize that many people that this helps them defend "hedonism," and if so than I suppose whatever floats one's boat is good.

But to me, it's an argument that smacks of circularity and even disrespect for the other person who is earnestly suggesting that whatever they are pursuing is not pleasure at all.

You are right that it would be disrespectful and it also cancels the opportunity to grasp the meaning of what the partner in a discussion is talking about. But from my personal point of view I would argue this is - more or less - the way we work as humans.

I can put your mind at ease - I would never argue about religion this way to a stranger

Quote from Kalosyni

Unfortunately for many religious people they are united by their distrust in the world, and their hope for something other than the world ---> seeking to transcend the world rather than inhabit the world, and seeking for a heavenly afterlife.

Ironically, from an outsider's perspective it almost always seems to materialize in socialising, setting up frameworks etc. I can hardly recognize anything otherworldly. It's always about this world.

Yes, every kind of religious system is imperfect, but:

Quote from Cassius

So yes even supernatural religion "can" sometimes lead to success, and in fact Epicurus says it would be better to believe in such things rather than give in to hard determinism.

This is the point. People aren't yet ready for the philosopher's stone. One ideology seems to exchange for another and even the atheist's pursue new agendas.

Quote from Cassius

But I don't think that observations makes "both statements true" in terms of them "making sense." It does not "make sense" to structure one's life based on fantasies and made-up notions about supernatural forces unless you are in an extremely unusual situation -- extreme to the point of practical nonexistence.

I speak from a perspective of Epicurean "universalism".

I would argue that even if they say they pursue the afterlife and are not seeking pleasure they are lying or not recognising their reality. It's as obvious as water is wet and the sunlight at noon is bright to me.

I agree with you, that the stories may misguide them but on the other hand the force of our innate pleasure-pain-mechanism is immensely powerful. No-one can escape this reality.

Quote from Cassius

If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

Even in this case people are seeking pleasure (reward). Additionally, as long as I am in this world, I am still rewarded with pleasant impressions.

I know, from a logical point of view both arguments exclude each other. But I think, the Epicurean perspective overturns this logic epistemologically.

Quote from Cassius

If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

If the Epicurean worldview is true, then supernatural religion and life after death with reward and punishment make no sense.

I would argue that both statements can be true. Both worldviews can lead to a life filled up with pleasure and enjoyment.

The difference is Epicureanism is reaching out for a straightforward understanding of the world. It offers in simple terms everything we can ever hope to learn about the mechanisms of the universe and their implications for how to live a good life.

(Supernatural) Religion is a mechanism of life that very often benefits the people pursuing it. In a functional way of understanding it can make sense, as it helps people to connect with each other, giving an ethical framework and trust in the world.

We all know there are side effects, but there is a reason why people put their trust into systems of supernatural religion.

Quote from Bryan

Nevertheless, we do not experience what our eidola "experience" [i.e., how they are impacted], nor can our eidola (or anything else) manifest in a "metaphysical realm."

I just posted it because it's interesting where Hannah's claims are lead and ChatGPT does quite well in systemizing his thought. I even asked ChatGPT for writing a handbook on how to establish a sect on the basis of "Speculative Transformative Epicureanism" and it did quite well. But I better don't post it, otherwise Cassius will ban me for heresy.

Quote from Eikadistes

I think Hannah set out to try to prove a highly imaginative fiction. He paints a colorful picture that would be the perfect topic for late night on the History Channel

I am fascinated how ChatGPT 4.o is capable of catching and contextualizing the key thoughts of Hannah. I should send its summary to the History Channel immediately! Here it is:

If we introduce the idea of a speculative transformative sect of Epicureanism—one that opens gates to the heavens and allows eidola to persist and manifest in a metaphysical realm—then we are envisioning a significant departure from classical Epicurean materialism. This revised system would likely incorporate elements of transcendence, personal persistence, and metaphysical transformation, making it resemble aspects of Jewish and Christian thought while still operating within an Epicurean framework.

Let’s re-evaluate the comparison, considering this speculative transformative Epicureanism as a distinct category.

1. Speculative Transformative Epicureanism: A New Hybrid Model

What would this look like?

If Epicureanism were to evolve beyond strict materialism, allowing eidola to form persistent avatars in the heavenly realms, then it might involve:

• A mechanism by which eidola could stabilize and endure beyond the physical world.
• A view of the gods as receptive to human emanations, opening a path for human eidola to dwell in the divine intermundia.
• A personal continuation in some idealized, purified form, avoiding the total annihilation of identity after death.

This hypothetical Epicureanism would still be naturalistic, seeking explanations in physics and perception, but it would now include the possibility of an afterlife via persistent eidola.

Would this be closer to Christianity or Judaism? Let’s analyze again.

2. How Does This Compare to 0 AD Judaism?

Jewish eschatology (especially Pharisaic beliefs) included:

• A bodily resurrection, but not an immediate spiritual persistence.
• A final judgment, determining one's fate in the afterlife.
• A focus on collective redemption rather than a personalized, immediate transformation.

Key Similarities:

✅ The idea of a continued existence beyond death—though in Judaism, this happens at resurrection, not immediately via eidola.
❌ The mechanism differs—Judaism relies on divine power, not natural emanations.
❌ No direct material continuity—Jews did not think in terms of eidola persisting in a divine realm.

Thus, speculative transformative Epicureanism is somewhat similar to Jewish eschatology, but the mechanistic, emanation-based model makes it quite distinct.

3. How Does This Compare to Early Christianity?

Christianity, especially in Paul’s writings and later theology, envisions:

• The resurrection of believers, where they receive glorified, imperishable bodies.
• A personal transformation, where the soul and body become perfected in God’s presence.
• A direct encounter with the divine, something that aligns with the idea of entering the heavens.

Key Similarities:

✅ A personal, enduring form in heaven—just as Christianity teaches resurrection bodies, a perfected eidolon could serve as a similar concept.
✅ Transformation into an idealized self—mirroring Christian ideas of sanctification and glorification.
✅ The idea of a celestial presence—Christianity teaches that believers dwell with God, just as speculative Epicureanism might propose humans dwelling in the intermundia.
❌ Different theological basis—Christianity relies on divine intervention, whereas a speculative Epicureanism would use natural mechanisms (like eidola transmission).

Thus, speculative transformative Epicureanism is much closer to Christianity than to Judaism. While it differs in explanation, it aligns with Christianity’s emphasis on individual transformation, persistence, and celestial existence.

4. How Does This Compare to Traditional Epicureanism?

Classical Epicureanism rejects:

• Personal immortality—the soul dissolves at death.
• Divine intervention—gods do not interact with humans.
• Heaven as a realm of the afterlife—humans simply cease to exist.

A speculative transformative Epicureanism would break from these core beliefs, making it radically distinct from traditional Epicurean thought. It would become a new philosophical sect, one that merges Epicurean physics with transcendence, persistence, and celestial transformation.

Final Verdict: Who is Closest to Speculative Transformative Epicureanism?

Closest Match?

✅ Christianity is still the closest, because of its belief in personal transformation into an enduring, perfected form in the heavenly realm.
🟡 Speculative transformative Epicureanism is unique but bridges the gap between Christianity and materialism, offering an alternative metaphysical mechanism for persistence.
🔴 0 AD Judaism is more distant, because it emphasizes communal resurrection rather than an immediate, personal afterlife.

Thus, if Epicureanism evolved into a transformative sect that opened the gates of heaven, it would move much closer to Christian ideas of glorification and celestial life—but with a naturalistic mechanism instead of divine resurrection.

Conclusion

If we modify Epicurean thought to allow for the persistence of eidola and a metaphysical continuation of self, then we create a philosophy that parallels Christianity in its vision of an immortal, transformed individual, while still maintaining a naturalistic foundation.

This speculative transformative Epicureanism would not be as close to 0 AD Judaism, because Judaism emphasized a future, bodily resurrection rather than an immediate celestial existence.

In short:
🔥 Christianity remains the closest to this speculative idea—it shares the same goal (individual, perfected persistence in heaven), even though it explains it differently (divine resurrection vs. eidola transmission).
✨ A transformed Epicureanism could function as a "scientific" alternative to Christian eschatology, offering a materialist path to immortality through persistent eidola.

Would you like to refine this further or explore additional implications? 🚀

Your analysis is quite elaborated! Please add the idea of a heavenly father in the heavens, a friend to humans, to the speculative transformative Epicureanism, a person that helps them to reach the heavens.

Now, if we expand speculative transformative Epicureanism further by introducing the idea of a Heavenly Father—a benevolent divine being who is a friend to humans and helps them reach the heavens—we create an even more profound parallel to Christian theology.

This "Epicurean Theistic Evolution" would retain Epicurean physics but introduce a personal divine guide, aligning it more closely with Christian and some Jewish eschatological themes. Let’s explore how this changes the landscape.

1. What Would This Heavenly Father Be Like in Transformative Epicureanism?

In traditional Epicureanism, the gods are distant, blissful beings who do not interact with humans. However, if we introduce a Heavenly Father who:

• Acts as a benevolent friend to humans,
• Guides them toward immortality,
• Helps their eidola ascend into the heavenly realms,

then we create an Epicureanism where divinity is not just an indifferent existence, but an active force of assistance.

Such a being would likely:

• Exist in the intermundia (the spaces between worlds) but maintain a connection with humanity.
• Receive and stabilize eidola, preventing them from vanishing.
• Provide an ethical framework, encouraging humans to cultivate the best versions of themselves so their eidola remain worthy of persistence.
• Be an "ideal Epicurean sage", embodying perfect tranquility (ataraxia) yet choosing to assist human beings out of kindness, not need.

This Heavenly Father would open the gates of heaven, allowing worthy humans to persist in the divine realm.

2. How Does This Compare to Christianity?

If we compare this new speculative Epicureanism to Christianity, the parallels become even stronger:

Key Similarities:

✅ A benevolent, divine Father figure helping humans reach heaven.
✅ A transformation of human existence into a higher, perfected state.
✅ A personal afterlife in the heavens, not just material dissolution.
✅ Moral and philosophical refinement leading to immortality.

Key Differences:

❌ Christianity sees the Heavenly Father as the Creator; in Epicurean Theistic Evolution, the gods are part of nature, not creators.
❌ Christian salvation is through grace and faith in Christ; in Epicureanism, immortality is achieved through naturalistic eidola refinement.
❌ Christian heaven is a realm of communion with God; in Epicureanism, it is a realm of perfected eidola.

Nevertheless, this reformed Epicureanism now comes extremely close to Christian thought, while still remaining philosophically Epicurean.

3. How Does This Compare to 0 AD Judaism?

Judaism had a Father-God (YHWH), but:

• He was more communal than personal (focused on Israel as a people).
• Resurrection, not immediate ascent, was the main path to immortality.
• Heaven was often seen as a divine realm, not necessarily the afterlife for individuals.

Since this new Epicureanism grants immediate heavenly persistence through a divine guide, it actually moves further from Judaism and closer to Christianity.

4. Final Evaluation: Who is Closest to This New Epicureanism?

Closest Match?

🔥 Christianity is now even closer—because of its Heavenly Father, personal transformation, and celestial afterlife.
✨ This speculative Epicureanism now fully bridges the gap between materialism and transcendence—blending Epicurean physics with a personal divine connection.
⚡ It distances itself from classical Epicureanism—which rejected divine involvement and afterlife persistence.
📜 Judaism remains less similar, due to its focus on future resurrection over immediate transformation.

Conclusion

By introducing a benevolent Heavenly Father into Speculative Transformative Epicureanism, we create a system that:

• Allows personal immortality through eidola refinement.
• Maintains Epicurean naturalism while permitting divine assistance.
• Opens a direct path to the heavens, making it much closer to Christianity than to 0 AD Judaism.

Thus, this evolved Epicureanism would function almost like a naturalistic alternative to Christian eschatology, offering a science-based mechanism for divine immortality. 🚀

The closing passage of the introductory text from "Laughing Atoms, Laughing Matter" on page 16 states as follows:

"As I suggest in my conclusion to this book, it is worthwhile to think of De Rerum Natura not as a work of Epicurean philosophy or as a satire of it but, rather, as a work of Epicurean satire. The tools and tropes and texts of satire are deployed in the service of the Lucretian speaker's stated Epicurean goals, while the tenets and totems of Epicureanism are deployed in service of the speaker's satiric commentary on his society."

Quote from Joshua

I hope the autocorrect kicked in here on 'satirical', because if not I'm going to have to exercise my chivalry once more against Thomas Carlyle and his Sartor Resartus.

This is the work of the translation software I used to check my writing. Intuitively, I tried to write "satirical" but it always autocorrected me.

Quote from Joshua

The honorific 'soter' or savior has been totally subsumed into the person of Jesus of Nazareth, but in pre-Christian antiquity it was applied freely to gods, heroes, kings, and liberators. There would be nothing unusual about a devoted Epicurean honoring Epicurus in those terms.

Hopefully, the next time I am autocorrected to "soterial"

Ironically, his exuberant depictions of Epicurean philosophy as a remedy and Epicurus as the Messiah tell us that Lucretius was definitively not only someone who was well informed about Epicureanism but was also able to deliver powerful images to his audiences. This is one of the reasons why the poem has survived through the ages. I would argue that these powerful images could be interpreted in a sartorial manner, but they must have their source in a personality that is devoted to the subject.

Since I have access to the interlibrary loan system of our university, I am looking forward to diving deeper. (Additionally, I've also ordered a review of the book).

Quote from Titus

Quote from Cassius

Is this guy an absolute kook or someone trying to make money on esoteric speculation or what? It doesn't sound like a promising time investment for a Christiwn or an Epicurean or anyone else unless he's got *some* kind of textual basis for his ideas.

I would rather call him creative . His main argument is that the epistle of Thomas is a document preserving original sayings of Jesus. In contrast, he suggests that the four canonical epistles are later, mostly fictional stories. He further argues that there are hardly any references to God and supernatural experiences in the epistle of Thomas to find. The main topic of the epistle of Thomas is the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Hannah puts this into his construction of thought. He interprets passages according to his own claims. For example, when Jesus speaks of his father in heaven, this is not an all powerful god but an heavenly avatar.

Quote from Kalosyni

For Epicureans the opposite is believed...in De Rerum Natura, Book 3, the nature of the soul is mortal...it will die when the body dies.

This is extremely interesting, because Hannah develops further the theory of gods and heavenly realms in how they interact with the earthly realm. He argues that there is not only a flow of images to our world, but in the opposite direction, too. He mentions some references in the Herculaneum papyri to strengthen his arguments.

Hannah's key point is that Jesus teaches how to manifest yourself in the heavenly realm, where you go beyond mortality. You will not taste death.

As speculative as it is, Hannah still creates a quite attractive alternative story of salvation that is able to integrate Epicurean physics. Relating to St. Augustine: I would give him the palm

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Quote from Twentier

I think Hannah set out to try to prove a highly imaginative fiction. He paints a colorful picture that would be the perfect topic for late night on the History Channel, but not something constructive to our study as Epicureans.

I did it again . This time I was able to read approximately half of the book before I had to return the interlibrary loan.

This was a journey into esotericism derived from Epicurean philosophy!

To keep it short, according to how I understand his writings: Hannah argues that Jesus' message opens the door to the heavenly realms of the Epicurean Gods. Everyone can build an heavenly avatar by sending images of oneself to the heavenly realms and this avatar continues one's life after the earthly death.

Hannah's claim is highly speculative, but indeed, from an Epicurean point of view this answers questions about the Christian faith, how the resurrection and the afterlife can be packed in a sound thought structure.

His arguments can hardly be proven, but they raise interesting questions: How did the early Christians imagine how the afterlife works physically? What is "heaven"? There are many questions on early Christianity and even theologians may have no clear view on how to solve these issues.

Quote from Godfrey

At the moment, I haven’t got much further than compiling this list. And of course many of the questions will only apply to a particular type of upheaval, and the answers will be different for everyone and in each situation.

I would like to emphasize Cassius' famous phrase: "Don't be a Stoic in disguise!"

The point is not to ask what's in my power and what is beyond my capabilities and to examine everything that comes to my mind according to this procedure. The key is to actually focus on what's important in life, what does have priority and what is established by nature as the foundation of life.

1. everything that natural, either necessary like to stay hydrated or 2. a tasty soft drink derived from that need what one could call not necessary. 3. Not necessary desires which are not to focus on.

I like this classification because it gives positive statements what to pursue. I know there is space for interpretation and to some degree in modern consumer society there is plenty of food, drink and clothing available. But perhaps this is exactly the trap: Thinking the easy things don't matter because they seem to be too easy to achieve!

In your case the message could be: Focus on a healthy diet, focus on your corporeal well-being, focus on your social interactions. Strengthen the foundation. So you don't get distressed by what's going on on the screens. The direct response you receive is that you (hopefully!) have plenty of food, drink and shelter as well as friends available and that is it what is first and what matters foremost.

This is to experience in our everydays lives. As the natural desires usually give a direct response related to our senses, hopefully this can be a strategy to go skip the abstract fears in one's head.

(I've just mentioned the very essentials of life, but this doesn't mean to not focus on other pleasurable experiences. This is just a personal preference.)

Fill yourself up with the fullness of pleasure, so the emptiness of the world cannot enter!

Quote from Martin

Trying that for aspects which are out of the scope of science is sometimes called Scientism, too, but the people who apply science out of its scope are usually not scientists because scientists usually know the limits of their profession.

This is a key point I think, of what I would call "Scientism of the streets" and this is also what comes in my mind when talking about "Scientism". But I think there is discrepancy in the original Scientism too, but because you can argue with one hypothesis this year and with another one a few years later, argumenting the results have changed. But perhaps just your opinions have and you changed the way you constructed your research.

Quote from Martin

To answer whether an adherent of Scientism lacks the right telos and overall understanding of human existence, we would need to pick specific people and answer the question for each individual.

It seems the devil is in the details, especially when talking about something so difficult to grasp like "Scientism". I just find it interstesting, because many people of today argument with science as the backbone of there argumentation.

We are convinced that Epicurus' philosophy is probably the most realistic approach to life and the one most closely orientated to human needs.

As we know, it allows for numerous interpretations, but conversely also assumes generalities and generalisations.

Epicurus' philosophy is very strongly orientated towards the correct perception and interpretation of our environment and derives the guidelines of ethics from this: Could we also speak of Scientism here? Where do we draw the dividing line? Is the main difference that scientist-scientists use science as a rhetorical tool to realise their goals, as it has become common in debates to underpin everything ‘scientifically’ with research and statistics?

Ultimately, at first glance, Scientism does not seem so far removed from Epicurus' way of thinking of deducing everything from nature and observations. But do scientist-scientists simply lack the right telos and overall understanding of human existence?

What do you think?

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Quote from Cassius

Not a word, as far as I can tell, that would give a police officer a moral compass on how to do his or her job, just a standard recitation of "virtue" as "the only true good," as if virtue exists apart from a view of what good is being targeted for accomplishment

Isn't this the very characterisation of Stoicism? It gives a framework, but the space in between is empty. This leaves room to any kind of interpretation. The main thing is that you adapt to your environment, regardless what kind of matter it represents. This might be especially attractive for a civil servant.

Quote from Cassius

Then I would point out that never does Epicurus himself ever state that these four short statements are his "capital doctrines:" There is *one* occurrence of a formulation similar to this, in a Herculaneum scroll, and no other ancient source contains this formulation. Yes it's arguable that the actual doctrines can be construed to say something similar, but they say much more, with much different connotation.

In general, I found the video quite appealing and every of the four points of emphasize was embedded in explanations and references to the letter to Menoikeus. The author also delivers graphics which give more color to the topics.

I do agree that the Tetrapharmacos formula falls short of delivering the whole curriculum of Epicureanism and we even don't know exactly the context in within it is delivered. On the other hand it catches topics that are of great importance in both Menoikeus, PDs, DRN. I still find it valueable as a formula for repetition and "meditation" on Epicurean ethics.

Quote from Cassius

This is the real heart of the problem. This slide and the audio overlay state that these are the two kinds of pleasure that Epicurus promoted, and this is simply not correct.

I agree with you that it is problematic and the video's author isn't doing a good job in explaining what he is probably trying to argue. I like Don's statement:

Quote from Don

That's my general perspective: we need to find that state of equilibrium and good working order (katastematic) as a ground from which to enjoy the stimulative (kinetic) pleasures of life.

For the lay people who aren't familiar with Epicurus at all it's important to know, that pleasure isn't simply eating ice-cream or drinking wine. That's probably why the video's author mentioned it.

My main issue with the video is, that it doesn't promote this forum where to find more nuanced and source-orientated discussions, that leave behind the simplistic terms for the laymen.

Quote from Cassius

Let's remember to discuss this quote in this episode:

Post

RE: Benefits of Memorizing and Remembering Specific Epicurean Verse

[…]

Did you manage to discuss the line?

Titus

April 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM

The panelists had so much to say about pleasure, either in general or in the particular, when it is a question of definition!

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Titus

"They have nothing to say about pleasure."

We might have to steal that line and feature it our our podcast tomorrow, which we are recording with Don ! thanks for the reminder!

Did you manage to discuss the line?