Posts by Titus

Quote from Cassius

Are we beginning to tread on "once saved always saved" theology?

You could go even further and define hell as "absence of god"... um... katastematic pleasure  

Quote from Don

The kinetic/katastematic distinction, from my perspective, was most helpful in distinguishing the Epicurus's school from the Cyrenaics. It established the Garden as embracing ALL pleasure as the good, not just the kinetic of the Cyrenaics.

This sounds very sound to me. The thing to be careful about is, not to go in the opposite direction and even begin to embrace katastematic for the sake of reaching a "nirvana-like state of ataraxia".

Verse 134 catches my eye:

Because of this, it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers, because necessity is not moved by prayer;

φυσικῶν "of the inquirers into nature, natural philosophers esp. of the Ionic and other pre-Socratic philosophers"

τῇτῶνφυσικῶν εἱμαρμένῃ "the decrees of the old natural philosophers" i.e., determinists, those decreeing fate is all-powerful

Is there anything more to it than Epicurus simply criticising believe in fate and therefore criticising giving up on deciding one's own destiny? (Consequently, emphasising the importance of artisting one's own life)

Is there any given evidence that these philosophers drove their own agendas by declaring what the fates are? If yes, is there anything comparable to it nowadays?

One could also think of it as a critique of the argument: "This is science!" (and therefore truth - trust me, not your senses). Do you think this is appropriate or does it overstretch the argument?

Quote from Cassius

But I wager that is what the "humanists" will always do, because like Cicero they insist on seeing "being human" as something higher than pleasure.

They definitely do and from their point of view, Epicureans adhere to some kind of dogma or be just the unfinished raw diamond or just an example of the past (while still a good one!).

Quote from Cassius

And that's the problem with those who aren't willing to straightforwardly identify freedom from pain as pleasure and see that the overall goal is not some kind of definition of "freedom from pain" that conflicts with or is superior to pleasure, but "pleasure" itself.

I tend to think they might understand the constellation between "freedom from pain" and "pleasure" as you do. The authors I refer to rather argue Epicurus promotes self-sufficiency over excesses, because in the end they cause more unpleasure than create pleasure. Perhaps their main difference is, they emphasize Epicurus' search for painlessness and self-sufficiency (for the reason to be always available of pleasure) rather than calling it pleasure directly (this way would be more antizipating of the canonical structure of the philosophy itself, but makes it even more difficult for the external reader to understand), although they mean the same. Perhaps the devil is just in the details. Especially when it comes to different languages.

They don't seem to speak of pleasure, but indeed they do. But I agree, without a proper understanding, "freedom from pain" can stroll apart and be seen as something different than pleasure.

The lecture was quite interesting as it reminded me of a popular stance on Epicurus which is predominant in modern German literature. Epicurus is understood as a philosopher who reaches for inner independence while also granting enjoyment of pleasure as long as the enjoyment doesn't collide with freedom from pain. The focus is slightly different than that of the forum, as it traditionally centers the ethics and doesn't dig deeper. Physics and Canonics remain nearly untouched.

Nonetheless I was amazed by the quite remarkable volume Epicurus was granted by the speaker.

In the following discussion I asked what the reference of Humanism to Epicurus is and he indeed answered, that Epicurean Philosophy has many similarities to Humanism because of Materialism and a positive attitude towards life and the human being. But he also stated, that rather Cicero is seen as a father figure, refering to the term "humanitas" which he told had been coined by Cicero.

I also asked what Humanism is, and they answered that it's about focussing on the human being and individuality. Speaking from the point of being an organisation, they don't want to be critics of religion but form a secular alternative, giving positive value in the world.

I would definitely see them as allies, but I also recognise them as focused more on societally tasks than promoting the personal transformation through philosophy which I regard as the key point.

Quote from Cassius

Not too bad an intro, and in my experience if they indeed have an interest in Nietzsche they will not go too far astray toward excessive asceticism (but that's the direction I would expect them to take anyway). Will be interesting to hear your take on the program.

I think I won't act well as a yardstick as I definitively have a tendency towards frugality. Anyway, I too expect the speaker to focus on the moderate life. I will take the forum navigation map with me and try to figure out where they are positioned. I know humanist groups to value Epicurus at least as a person giving them historical legetimacy.

I am probably going to attend a "Humanist" event this weekend, as it deals to some extend with Epicurean Philosophy and I'm also interested in how they perceive Epicureanism. It's organized by a society called "Humanistische Vereinigung" (Humanist Association).

The introductory text states:

Philosophical Breakfast: Thoughts on Man, Happiness and Death

Speaker: Dr. Frank Schulze

Starting with the question of what Friedrich Nietzsche actually means by the phrase "human, all-too-human", which has become a common phrase, we will first embark on a short journey of discovery in the direction of the question "What is man?" and from there to the question of human happiness. Here we devote special attention to Epicurus, whose "consistent and coherent grand design of a form of life" (K. Jaspers) is neither ascetic nor dissolute, but aims at inner independence. From this thought, various philosophical perspectives on the problem of death are presented, from antiquity to contemporary thought.

(translated by DeepL)

Do anyone of you have any questions you would like to ask them?

Quote from Don

Maybe I could rationalize the "matters of food and/or drink" or "observing festivals" (The 20th, anyone?)... but then the letter's author goes into new moons or Sabaths. In fact, "matters of food and drink" sound like this "philosophy" being discussed has some dietary rules or forbidden foods that the Christians are eating. It's hard to say without any context. I'm sure the Colossians knew what he was referring to!

Maybe he is refering to different groups at the same time. As you did say, we would need more information about the background of the recipients.

For the next week I will be occupied by work, but I am looking forward to participate more afterwards.

Thank you Don for your extensive research! I didn't expect such a quick progress in discussing DeWitt's theses.

Quote from Don

If he's looking for Epicurean hints, he's going to see Epicurean hints everywhere. And where he doesn't see them, he invents a way that they could be there... with the barest of actual evidence.

One of his principal arguments is, that without turning the Epicurean glasses on, there is no way to understand the texts properly. In another part of the book, he mentions the loss of the doctrinal context (which he is reconstructing, hence recognizing things other scholars aren't able to).

As you say, his argumentation depends on the validity of his presumptions and can easily be overturned. He is quite creative in writing an alternative history, inbedded in an Epicurean environment.

The other question is: Are the arguments of DeWitt weaker than the arguments of others? It seems so, as you've mentioned above. But DeWitt makes a good (at least rhetorical) argument in pointing to the loss of doctrinal context, which leaves space to various interpretations, as there are regarding the New Testament.

DeWitt's argumentation is at least somewhat valuable, independently of its validity or not. One can see clearly the rivalry of Paul to other schools of thought and how he advertises for hope beyond this world.

I'm looking forward to your further research.

Although I do not expect any new revelations from examining DeWitt's work on the epistles of St. Paul, I still consider his study a quite remarkable approach to decipher and understand St. Paul under the light of Epicureanism. Others claim that he creates in a quite persuasive way scientific fiction.

Unfortunately, a quick research via search engines doesn't show any kind of reception by theologians or other researchers. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that on the one hand, there are some astonishing clues by DeWitt, which would bring light to tricky passages in the writings of Paul. On the other hand, having no critiques or recensions by experts at all, makes fact-checking a tricky task. Personally, I don't have any knowledge of Ancient Greek, too.

My strategy would be this way:

1. Starting a systematic literature research. Perhaps there may be some hidden articles on the issue which are invisible to a superficial investigation.

2. Trying to consult theology professors/professionals who are specialized on the New Testament.

Do you have any ideas/proposals on how to handle such an investigation? Has anyone of you already tried to do a check?

Quote from Don

His use of reading Paul with an Epicurean filter and coming up with "new translations" has struck me in too many instances as proof texting or seeing what he wants to see instead of what's there.

I know your'e opinion on him and I would also be cautious. I see this rather as inspirational intellectual food while sitting in a cosy chair next to a fireplace. But DeWitt also makes a good move in suggesting other translators are seeing what they want to see instead of what's there .

Quote from Don

Epicurus's philosophy was antithetical to Christian beliefs. Dr. Bart Ehrman recently posted an essay to his blog contrasting Epicurus and Paul.

I would not overestimate the influence of Epicurean philosophy on the emergence of Christianity. Nevertheless, there still seem to be some good points, especially DeWitt's reception of the letters of St. Paul. He suggests Paul did at least resemble some Epicurean doctrine, transforming it to make it suitable to his own standards. DeWitt is extraordinary, because he investigates the writings of St. Paul under the light of Epicureanism. He offers new translations and new ways of how to interpret. But there the journey ends, because the data basis is still weak and there aren't any findings/illuminations concering a new theology of Paul, that could trigger further study (and suit theologians pushing new agendas).

Quote from Cassius

We're hoping to interview soon a professor who has written that the ancient Epicureans weren't nearly as non-political as they are now regarded to be, but no matter where one comes down on that issue I am confident that we here at the EpicureanFriends.com forum are always going to work to stay together on the core work even at the expense of conducing interesting political discussions elsewhere.

I really appreciate your comment. Epicurus states in the Principal Doctrines, that justice and therefore politics, are relative and bound to time and place. Taking the title of this thread seriously ("Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community") it not necessarily means to stay away from, but to stay above things that rise and fall throughout the ages. What does persist instead - what does have ultimate reality - is the mechanism which nature provides to living things. This should be at the center of our study.

Humanists are quite an interesting phenomenon. From my point of experience, there are at least two types of current organizations that use the Humanist label:

a.) Those which are secular counter-clubs to confessional Christianity, celebrating coming-of-age-parties, offering secular rituals for weddings and funerals and so on. Historically, they emerged 100-200 years ago. In Germany for example, they are even registered as "Churchs" which gives them certain kinds of privileges.

b.) Atheist propagandists which proclaim science and evolutionary theory as illuminating forces and themselves as experts.

The other question is - consider Humanists themselves Epicureans? I would deny this question but nonetheless they frequently point to Epicurus when it comes to historical precursors giving them legetimacy.

(3) The nature of how to live.

This could also be seen as a continuation of the Epicurean Philosophy Navigation Chart to expand the Ethics. A preliminary list of topics that are important to me:

1. Awareness of becoming and passing away, consciousness of life and death in respect to the nature of the universe, processuality of life

2. Pursuing/Focussing the natural desires which

a.) is Nature's yardstick for happiness

b.) leads to self-sufficiency and autarky

c.) reveals life as an inexhaustible source of happiness

d.) sets the focus how to plan/organize our lives according to Nature

3. Promoting friendship/life in living relationships as a means to achieve security

4. The imperishable life of the gods as a role model to achieve with our perishable means

5. Focusing/staying connected with our senses, thus overcoming abstract ideas/desires/fears

6. Concentration on your body/person as a material being. Awareness about natural and necessary desires, therefore focusing health/wellbeing

Is there a high definition version available? It would be great to print this as a wall poster to be always aware of the key concepts.

Quote from Cassius

One of the points DeWitt brings out in the final chapter of Epicurus and His Philosophy was that the dying down of the controversies in which the Epicureans were involved with Judeo-Christianity marked the parallel dying down of the Epicurean school as a whole. It might well be that any resurgence of interest in Epicurus will end up being accompanied by the re-lighting of those same flames of controversy.

Thank you stimulating my appetite for reading. Because of "his antiquated and sometimes opaque writing style" I discontinued reading "Epicurus and His Philosophy" after reading his voluminous biographical notices on Epicurus.

Quote from Don

What I personally have issues with is his tendency to go far beyond what the texts and evidence have to offer. Especially the books written in retirement: Epicurus and His Philosophy and St. Paul and Epicurus. I think he often interprets and extrapolates far too much with very little evidence to make a point he wants to make. Following up on his references is frustrating because his text will say one thing and the reference don't back it up. Or he'll simply make things up for the sake of historical narrative or philosophical stance. He was skilled at creating historical fiction based loosely on the evidence. That's one of my big issues with DeWitt.

Personally speaking, his creative stance "creating historical fiction" is the reason why I adore "St. Paul and Epicurus" so much. While his assumptions are often experimential and lacking obvious evidence, this is exactely the reason why his work is so valueable. Deciphering and reinterpreting of texts relating to a 2000 years old tradition is quite a tricky task. No other person than an expert in ancient languages and Epicureanism seems to be qualified of recognizing hidden parallels in the original texts. Any other interpreter, who are usually theologians, would be stuck in the spider's net of tradition - or promoting their own agenda. DeWitt's analysises in "St. Paul and Epicurus" can hardly be read as hard evidence, but they are interpretations to talk about. Unfortunately, it seems hardly anyone have discussed his assumptions. In my opinion, they are more groundet than most of theologian's writings.

Relating to "St. Paul and Epicurus" this is, for the first time, a Christianity which makes sense to me. While DeWitt doesn't formulate his final conclusion, the reader imagines St. Paul bringing the heavens of the blissful and eternal gods to Earth, offering their salvation to mankind!

Quote from Don

The other, again especially in Epicurus and His Philosophy, is his antiquated and sometimes opaque writing style. Parsing DeWitt can sometimes be almost as difficult as parsing ancient Greek! That is one of the reasons I'm reluctant to fully endorse DeWitt as an introduction to Epicurus and his philosophy.

As a non-native speaker, I definitively agree with you.

Quote from Martin

In Germany, religious education is a mandatory part of education in state schools, includes church service on one school day morning per week, and is usually done separately for Catholics and Protestants, whereby Protestants are usually lumped together in one curriculum irrespective of their variants.

I cannot remember any obligatory church services. This has to be either a regional feature or an issue of the past or both.

Quote from Martin

A fear-mongering religion would be ridiculous in Cologne.

In the meantime, both the Catholic and the Unified Protestant Church in Germany have deleted Hell and Punishment from their curriculum. Their only interest is to keep the money flowing and their business empire growing. The only persistent blasphemy is to opt out the church-tax system.

Quote from EricR

Does the philosophy change you? Or perhaps it is better posed as "does the philosophy change your experience of being"?

Sometimes I ask myself the same question and realize most people won't ever walk in the same trails as I do. It's quite impressive, because I consider the Epicurean worldview as substantial to the recognition of happiness. It's not about the single elements, as there are normal people out there who know how to live a happy life, too. It's rather the unique approach of developing a comprehensive philosophy, starting with particles and ending up proclaiming self-esteem and the reign of pleasure.

I had become quite a fundamentalist, focusing on Epicurean philosophy only and its implications all day long. I've tried to "normalize" in the last months, but it seems I feel better in the "Epicurusphere" as I don't understand much of what's going on outside of my bubble anymore. It does not feel real, not focussed and obsolete.

I also like the religious flavour, adhering true philosophy and recognizing Epicurus as my saviour.

Nice to meet you!