Posts by Eikadistes

This placement in 10.62 is interesting: he presents a scenario where the ἐπιβολὴν λαμβανόμενον τῇ διανοίᾳ (épibolēn lampanómenon têi dianoíai), the "apprehending being grasped [by] the intellect" ἐστι ἀληθές or "is true", verus it being false under dissimilar conditions.

More and more, it seems to me that there is no, true "Fourth Criterion" of the Kanon because Epíkouros, himself, writes that one such apprehension "is true" but another such "is false". However, that does not mean this, true apprehension is un-useful in having coherence with reality.

Also, based on the consistency with which this phrase is re-employed, combined with the naturalistic language he uses when making analogies, I think he supposes that thinking, itself, can reliably be said to be like a fisherman purposefully casting a net in meaningful directions to catch thoughts.

And also with you!

The caveat here is that anything that is capable of being generated, or destroyed can neither be an uncuttable particle, nor void nature. Otherwise, everything else is fair game.

Give that "Particles" + "Void = "The All", I might avoid using "all things", if we are to suppose the plethora of particles and the boundless void to be things among "all things".

Quote from Don

Why does he use ἐγράφομεν "we write"? 1st person plural?

I've been considering if this choice was a reflection of those texts being expressions of the collective thought held by the leaders of the Garden, or else, if it evident (as I think might be the case with the Last Will) that someone was transcribing on behalf of Epicurus, or else, copying material.

Just wanted to organize the update here, in addition to the Gallery, for further discussion.

All right, so, this is by no means authoritative, but I did my best to try to illustrate what I understand to be the semantic context of these phrases, primarily found in 10.49-52:

"Theories of Vision

49 It is necessary then also to know [that the] impinging [of images occurs] on account of a certain thing from the outside [that enables] us to observe and to consider, since the nature [of objects] cannot be impressed [while we are] removed from the [objects] themselves, as [in the case] of an [object’s] color and of an [object’s] morphology [as though this these qualities could be extrapolated] from the air that [rests] between both of us and of the [objects as Aristotélēs says], nor [could it] on account of the “rays” [or “beams“] or whatever [is believed] of those presenting streams [of Empedoklḗs and Pláton], as a result of us [directing our gaze] toward those [objects]; therefore, just as in the case of some impressions [that are] impinging [upon] us [as] a result of both the colorful realities and of like morphologies concerning a harmonious magnitude [entering]into [either] the face or the mind, they are being swiftly assailed [by] the [atomic] forces, ⁵⁰[and] then because of the latter[forcible] cause of that one [magnitude], both of [a] constant [stream of particles] yielding a [perceptual] phantasm¹⁵ and an[affective] sympathy as a result of the observing, [they] are [both] being established thereafter by symmetrical impact out of a [body] by breadth at the [immensely] fast [movement] of the pulsing of the uncuttable [particles]. And we could have immediately apprehended this applicative phantasm [within] the mind¹⁶ or [else could have apprehended] the sensations either [in the case] of [a body’s physical] morphology or of [a body’s qualitative] attributes.

Fact, Fiction, and Fantasia

That morphology exists [as] a solid [structure since] an [appearance] is being generated sequentially by a concentration or residue of the eídṓlou; moreover, a pseudodoxy, as [compared with] a [true belief], has gone astray from the [observable reality that] is being experienced [and] perpetually [that reality] exists. <In the case of what remains> to be confirmed or to be contradicted, either it will be confirmed <or it will be contradicted> (in respect of some motion within us [that] is [in]ourselves being merged with the creative application [of the mind],¹⁷ then possessing [such a] judgment, the pseudodoxy is being generated by that [creative application that can be either true or false]). ⁵¹For also that likeness of the [perceptual] phantasms¹⁸ [that] are being grasped as by [an] image are being generated, either in respect of [dreaming like during] slumbers or in respect of some other applications of the mind,¹⁹ or it could not actually be of the remaining criteria [of truth]— at some point it can have been arising [from] The Real just as true [statements] are being addressed, if [indeed] it was not a certain something, and in such manner besides that which we were apprehending; but having gone astray [from the facts], the proposition could could not have been arising [from Nature’s kanṓn], whether [or not] we were not grasping [the truth] and [instead preferred to follow] some other [persuasive] motion in us ourselves [that] is indeed being combined [to produce] a creative application²⁰ [that] is being engaged; moreover, [this faculty] is [capable of] possessing [reliable] judgment, but again if [the faculty] was [either] not [capable of] confirming or [if] it was contradicting the [evidence], a pseudodoxy is being generated; but, if it was being confirmed, or [at least] was not being contradicted, [then] the [proposition is] true."

And here are the corresponding footnotes, describing each declension:

15. τὴν φαντασίαν (tḗn phantasían) meaning “a phantasm” or “the fantasy“.
— τὴν (tḗn) – (fem. acc. sing.) – “a“, “the“.
— φαντασίαν (phantasían) – (n. sing. acc.) meaning a “appearance“, “presentation“, “display“. ↩︎

16. λάβωμεν φαντασίαν ἐπιβλητικῶς τῇ διανοίᾳ (lámbōmen phantasían épiblētikõs têi dianoíai), the “applicative fantasy” in “the mind“.
— λάβωμεν (lámbōmen) – (v. 1st. pl. aor.) meaning “we received“, “we seized“, “we understood“, “we grasped“, “we apprehended“.
— φαντασίαν (phantasían) – (n. sing. acc.) meaning “appearance“, “presentation“, “display“, “phantasm“, “fantasy“, “creative [application]”.
— ἐπιβλητικῶς (épiblētikõs) – (adj. pl. acc.) meaning “apprehending immediately“, “apprehending directly, “quickly“, or “applicative“.
— τῇ (têi) – (art. fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [mind]“.
— διανοίᾳ (dianoíai) – (n. dat. sing.) meaning “intention“, “purpose“, “thinking“, “mind“, “understanding“. ↩︎

17. τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ (têi phantastikéi épiboléi) or “a creative” or “the creative application” of the mind.
— τῇ (têi) – (fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [application]”.
— φανταστικῇ (phantastikéi) – (adj. dat. sing.) meaning “creative“, “productive“, “fantastic“.
— ἐπιβολῇ (épiboléi) – (n. sing. masc. dat.) meaning “throwing“, “apprehending“, “application“, “projection“. ↩︎

18. τῶν φαντασμῶν (tṓn phantasmṓn) or “of the phantasms“, “of the appearances“, “of the fantasies [of the mind]“.
— τῶν (tṓn) – (art. gen. pl) meaning “of the [phantasms]”.
— φαντασμῶν (phantasmṓn) – (n. gen. pl) meaning “of phantasms“, “mental images“, “vain imaginings“, “visions“. ↩︎

19. ἄλλας τινὰς ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας (állas tinàs épibolàs tḗs dianoías) meaning “some other application of the mind“.
— ἄλλας (állas) – (adj. fem. acc. pl.) meaning “other“, “another“, “different“, “else“, “yet“, “still“.
— τινὰς (tinàs) – (pron. masc. fem. acc. pl.) meaning “some“.
— ἐπιβολὰς (épibolàs) – (n. sing. acc. pl.) meaning “apprehending“, “application“, “throwing“, “reaching“.
— τῆς (tḗs) – (art. gen. sing. fem.) meaning “of a [thought]”, “of the [mind]”.
— διανοίας (dianoías) – (gen. sing.) meaning “mind“. ↩︎

20. τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ (têi phantastikéi épiboléi) or “a creative” or “the creative application” of the mind.
— τῇ (têi) – (fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [application]”.
— φανταστικῇ (phantastikéi) – (adj. dat. sing.) meaning “creative“, “productive“, “fantastic“.
— ἐπιβολῇ (épiboléi) – (n. sing. masc. dat.) meaning “throwing“, “apprehending“, “application“, “projection“. ↩︎

The other two examples are found in Key Doctrine 24 and Lives of Eminent Philosophers 10.31.

I'm going to re-visit this, but I need a placeholder.

As I'm translating into 10.50 of the Epistle to Hēródotos, I am finding a shit-ton of employments of phantastikai epibolai tês dianoias as τὴν φαντασίαν, φαντασίαν ἐπιβλητικῶς τῇ διανοίᾳ, τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ, τῶν φαντασμῶν, τινὰς ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας , τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ, and I am sure many others. He specifically starts throwing around this phrase when discussing the mechanics of sight.

He drops this phrase (as I recall) once in the KD, and once (I think) by Diogénēs Laértios in his own description. As it turns out Ep. Hēr. provides us with a real wealth of examples of this phrase.

... also, neither here nor there, but I detect a tone of admonishment from Epíkouros toward Hērodotos.

There are definitely options! Others are no doubt using them, so I just have a general thought.

There are a number of sites that can help organize images and delegate space for sharing. Users can share links from platforms like Flickr, Imgur, Photobucket, DeviantArt, and Pinterest (among others) on which users can store a library of our own collection. I used to use Reddit and Facebook (which aren't necessarily suited for that), but I’ve left, so I don’t have a personal preference at the moment.

I really, really, really want to recommend never using ChatGPT.

I'm going to be a broken record and annoy everyone until it stops.

There are thousands of artists out their who are HUNGRY for commissions, many of whom are friends, and can no longer work because of AI and other plagiarism programs.

Please be reminded: everyone in here is so much smarter and more creative than AI.

Don't defer to it for any reason, ever, under any circumstances.

And, not like anyone was asking (and forgive the shameless self-promotion) but I came across this idea about Nietzsche, in particular, while writing a kind of manifesto once upon a time. It started as a songbook for my music, but eventually developed into a 30,000 essay on language and culture.

It's sort of written from a kind of post-structuralist point of view. My thesis was that everything humans produce is "poetry", including our maths and sciences, and everything we've ever been exposed to, whether Noah's Ark or the Big Bang, each are their own kind of "myth".

I also spend time reflecting on Elvish history in Lord of the Rings and Led Zeppelin, among other things. I take liberties. It deals a lot more with reflections on aesthetics than physics and epistemology, but, if you're interested in the Nietzsche thing, I'll stand behind what I wrote.

Ultimately, I maintain that the function of our "poetries" are to express ourselves as accurately as possible, and that accuracy should be a reflection of the reality of our experiences: "In writing with purpose, we commit to hydrate forgotten passions that have grown arid with age. We write to polish petrified fossils and wage an unending campaign to animate identity. We write to dismantle the many mistaken assumptions embedded within mere “empty sounds” (Epicurus, Letter To Herodotus) ."

The whole thing isn't exactly Epicurean, more of an art project, but, still, thought I'd share.

Quote from Don

Quote from Kalosyni

Don any thoughts on this? Maybe you have something to add about the use of negation in ancient Greek language, and the pattern of words that often occurs?

I'm sorry, Kalosyni. This flew under my radar. I don't have any thoughts off the top of my head, but I'm intrigued. I'll share any I might discover. Maybe Bryan or Eikadistes would have thoughts?

That said, great posts here on this thread. Y'all are providing some solid summaries of the "absence of pain" idea.

Rolf For recently joining our little online Garden, your contributions are insightful and greatly appreciated. Glad to have you aboard.

As I've observed with other philosophers, Epíkouros is no stranger to capitalizing on Hellenic word formation by coining his own phrases with affixes , so he does occasionally throw the prefix ἀ- to render "not [this]" when re-naming a positive idea and re-framing it as a negation. I don't necessarily think that is a defining quality of his literary voice, but it may reflect his philosophical approach.

The one thing I definitely see in terms of negation is his reasoning:

I. "A is the case."
II. "If B were the case, we would observe Y."
III. "In fact, we observe X, not Y."
IV. "Therefore A is the case."

For example:

I. "Particles have a maximum, tiny size."
II. "If they didn't, we would see particles with the naked eye."
III. "We cannot see particles."
IV. "Therefore, particles have a maximum, tiny size."

Now, all that said, who you really want for this discussion is Nietzsche. 100%. Epicurean theory of language is about frankness. All words are indicative, and each word reflects exactly one object or idea with a 1:1 evaluation. Preconceptions reinforce this, that there are universal notions that all humans shared based on similar experience, and those notions are positive indications of what is. Nietzsche, on the other hand thrived with linguistic negation. He has an extensive discussion of language and the development of speech wherein he proposes (this is key) that "truth is a mobile army of metaphors", meaning that every word is figurative, and can only be defined in relation to what is not. He might suggest that "blue" is less usefully defined as "the dark, cold color" or "cloudless sky", and is more usefully defined as "not red-orange-yellow-green-violet": (EDIT: Or, a better example, he explains that you cannot define a word without using other words that don't mean what that word means.)

Come to think of it, Joseph Campbell, the mythologist, has a great discussion about this idea. I forget where (I want to say a TV interview?) but he proposes that every word is a metaphor. This, however, contrasts with the Hegemon, who sees metaphors as potential slippery-slopes to myth. Of course, Joseph Campbell sees everything as the function of a myth ... so there's that:

“Truth is a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, anthropomorphisms, in short, a sum of human relations which were poetically and rhetorically heightened, transferred, and adorned, and after long use seem solid, canonical, and binding to a nation. Truths are illusions about which it has been forgotten that they are illusions." (Friedrich Nietzsche, On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense)

In the Sayings of the Wise (10.120), Epíkouros employs the word ἁμάρτημα (amártēma) meaning "mistakes", "failures", "faults" "guilts", "flaws" "errors", or "sins". This corresponds with several employments of αμαρτία (amartía) and ἁμαρτάνω (amartánō, meaning "to miss", "to fail to correctly aim", "to lose", "to fail", "to sin") throughout Paul's Epistles in the New Testament.

I bet we'll find more examples.

Quote from Don

Hurrah for Vexillology!!

I like the design , but it reminds me of the Unitarian Universalists:

And Stoicism.

The Stoics called dibs on symbolic flames.

While we're on the topic of Vexillology, I may as well share this guy:

Rolf , I'm loving where your head is at. You have found a kindred spirit on here, indeed.

There are a number of mental pleasures that are even more pleasurable than the sensation of our toes not throbbing, for example, the pleasure of knowing that clumsiness can be mitigated with awareness, and that we use rationality to relocate whichever pesky piece of furniture leapt in front of our poor toe's path, and then, even once you've stubbed your toe, it is incredibly pleasurable reflecting, each second, that the pain is quickly dissipating, and will disappear within minutes. Finally, I can remind myself that we usually don't need splints for broken toes, and the Nature inside us, perpetually seeking reduction of inflammation, heals itself without us even asking.

I'll accept being in a bit of physical pain, but having the mental confidence that it will pass more than I will having no pain at all, but lacking confidence, and being fearful of future stubbed toes. There's a lot of positive pleasure to be had in the mental exercises of gratitude and patience.

Quote from TauPhi

The attached pdf contains complete Book X of Diogenes Laertius' "Lives of Eminent Philosophers" in Greek and in three English translations (Yonge's, Hicks' and Bailey's) available in the public domain.

GREAT work! The comparative translations are really helpful, because, truly (especially as I've found in my attempts at translating) a number of 19th-century, British scholars literally punted and paraphrased rather than trying to find a way to make a mediopassive verb fit the context. I'm finding some sentences that don't even remotely contain the same verbs, objects, or subjects, and ignore declensions sometimes for the sake of making the concept generally digestible.

Overwhelmingly the translators are great. There are just a few things that most will gloss over that aren't appropriate. The best example I can think of, which Don discovered, is that all translators (except for Stephen White 2021, as I found) incorrectly gloss over Epicurus' birthday on the "[early] tenth of Gamelion" (i.e. "early tenth" = "20th"), so many translators overlooked the ancient Greek slang of "early tenth", ignored it, punted their creativity, and incorrectly settled on "10th".

No scholar is so infallible in their research that we should trust them 100%, and providing comparative texts really goes a long way in seeing patterns, preferences, and prejudices from the scholars. Thanks again for doing this! This is an unexpectedly pleasant surprise.

Glad you asked!

My personal favorite is from DRN 2.991, CAELESTI SVMVS OMNES SEMINE ORIVNDI meaning "We have all come from heavenly seed", which I really like because it summarizes, anticipates, and informs Carl Sagan's observation that "we are made of star stuff". (Got it tatted a while ago!)

As far as those go, ΛΑΘΕ ΒΙΩΣΑΣ is also a favorite, "Live Anonymously" (or "unknown", etc.):

Antiquity also provides us with SIC FAC OMNIA TAMQUAM SPECTET EPICVRVS, meaning "Do all things as if Epicurus were watching", a kind of ancient, Epicurean version of "What Would Jesus Do?"

Then also, we have FELIX QVI POTVIT RERVM COGNOSCERE CAVSAS meaning "Happy [is] the person who knows the causes of things" from a piece of work by Virgil that I forget.

Juvenal shares with us RANDVM EST VT SIT MENS SANA IN CORPORE SANO... meaning “You should pray for a sound mind in a healthy body...” which has a nice, confident, encouraging ring to it.

And then, of course, Horace gives us CARPE DIEM, which we all know as meaning "Seize the Day", but, personally, I prefer that we "Pluck the day [from the vine of time".

Sorry for the overshare! These are always fun questions.

I've read a lot more into Ethan Allen based on the availability of material. Nature's God introduced me to Thomas Young, but he seems to be a bit of a difficult historical figure to pin down in terms of daily activities. This book did two things that really helped me: one was to demonstrate how "Epicurean" our world really is (regardless of the bumper stickers we have), and the other was to help foster a feeling that non-Christians had a big, important, positive part to play in our history.

How would you title each of the six books of De Rerum Natura?

What would of their names be?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

Just to get the ball rolling...

1. "The True Philosophy"

Book One: Prayer to Mother Nature, Ode to Epicurus, Superstition causes the worst evils, Illuminating lost science in verse, Deities do not control nature, Nothings comes from nothings, Nothing goes to nothing, Particles cannot be seen, Matter is mostly empty space, Density, The Universe is bodies and void, Bodies are particles or compounds, Particles are indestrucible, Refutation of Herákleitos, Summary of pluralisms, Refutation fo Empedoklēs, Refutation of Stoic pneuma, As particles to bodies, so letters to words, Refutation of Anaxagoras, Purpose of poem, A spoonful of sugar, The universe has no edge, Cosmic expansion, Refutation fo Aristotle, There can be no center in infinity, Read and grow confident.

2. "The Play of Particles"

Book Two: The pleasure of prudence, Life is a struggle in darkness, Particle physics (and how!), Particles forever bounce and fall, Brownian Motion (1827), The speed of particles, Refutation of divine providence, Everything falls due to its weight, The swerve is needed for generation, Bodies fall at the same speed in void, The swerve is needed for choice, The swerve is needed for imagination, The Cosmological Principle (1687), Special Relativity (1905), The shapes of the particles, The effects of a particle’s shape, The particles have limited forms, Each form has unlimited particles, Creation and destruction, Everything is a combination, Earth, Mother of the Gods, Religious personification, Differences due to atomic form, Law of Definite Proportions (1797), Particles have no color, There is no color in darkness, Particles are insensible, Awareness arises from blind matter, We come from heavenly seed, From earth back to earth, The innumerable worlds, Inevitability from infinity, Nature is her own mistress, All things must pass,

3. "The Mortal Soul"

Book Three: Proem to Epicurus, Fearless of death, The soul is an organ of the body, Rejection fo Pythagoras, The matter of mind and spirit, The mind and spirit are material, The particle sof the soul, The qualities of the soul, The chemistry of the soul, The union of the body and soul, Experience comes from sensations, Refutation fo Democritus, We live more in mind than in spirit, The soul dies, The mind and spirit are the soul, The soul dissolves upon death, The mind is an organ of the body, Mental illness is real, The mind is a material body, Epileptic seizures, The mind is mortal, The spirit is mortal, The soul is mortal, The mind and body act as one, The soul dissolves upon dying, The mind’s seat in the body, The soul needs a body, Distribution in the body, The soul dies with the body, Refutation of reincarnation, Character is hereditary, There are no “old souls”, A mind cannot live before its body, Death is nothing to us, There is no afterlife, Grief is not the answer, There is no longing in death, What to do with the time before us, We hold but a lease on life, Hell is a bad state of being, None of us own death, Study the nature of things, Do not fear death

4. "Sight, Illusions, Dreams, Sex"

Book Four: The road less traveled, A spoonful of sugar, The nature of perception, All things emit films of particles, Tjhe fineness of the films of particles, Microscopic activities, Pareidolia, Patterns in the clouds, Constant streaming, The speed of light, Seeing or visual perception, Distinguishing distance, Mirror reflection, Lateral Inversation, Angled mirrors, Retina Adjustment, Persistence of Vision, Xanthopsia, Dark Adaptation, Distance Illusion, Beta MOvement, Induced Movement, Parallax, Vanishing Point, Vertigo, The “Moon” Illusion, More Induced Movement, Entasis, Vanishing point, Refraction of Light, Still More Induced Movement, Diplopia or “Double-Visions”, Rapid-eye movement sleep, Refutation of Skepticism, Sensations cannot lie, The other sense perceptions, Hearing or auditory perception, The nature of speech, The nature of echoes, Sitght vs. sound, Tasting or gustatory perception, Food for one is poison for another, Smelling or olfactory perception, The discharge of aroma, Each creature has its own weakness, The nature of imagination, The substance of dreams, The nature of ideas, Rejection of teleology, Consumption and replenishment, Locomotion, The nature of sleep, The content of dreams, Dogs dreaming, Nightmares, Nocturnal enuresis, Nocturnal emissions, Puberty, Sexual psychology, Dangers of Romantic Love, love is blind, Sex is recreational, Biological inheritance, The causes of infertility, Positions for conception

5. "The Story of Life"

Book Five: Proem to Epicurus, A good life requires a pure mind, For Lucretius next trick…, All things must pass, The sun is not a god, The wrold was not made for us, The world is mortal, The world is still fresh, Nature is a mix of bodies and void, Balance between the forces, The forces of creation, The Nebular Hypothesis (1734), Motion of the stars, The plurality of causes, Sourcce of the Sun’s energy, Seasonal arc of the sun, The dance of night and day, The nature of moonlight, Solar and lunar eclipses, Evolution, Mother Earth, Everythign is in flux, Natural selection, Extinction, Mythic hybrids do not exist, Early hominids, Discovery of controlled fire, The origin of civilization, The origin of speech, Fire from lightning, The origin of cooking, The origin of political power, The influence of wealth, Reponse to authocracy, Response to societyal collapse, The origin of religion, The dangers of superstition, The history of metallurgy, Value changes over time, The Stone Age, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, The laboratory of war, The origin of gender roles, The origin of agriculture, The origin of music, The sake of convenience, Behavioral acclimatization, The origin of timekeeping, The development of the arts

6. "Spectacles and Curiosities"

Book Six: Pleasure is the Greatest Good, The natural sciences, The nature of thunder, The nature of lightning, Speed of lightning vs. thunder, The nature of thunderbolts, The nature of cyclones, Seasonal changes in weather, Superstition is a bad joke, The nature of waterspouts, The nature of clouds, The hydrological cycle, The nature of rainbows, The nature of preciipitation, The nature of earthquakes, The volume of the sea, The nature of volcanos, The plurality of causes, The nature of the Nile River, The nature of toxic gas, Everything is a product of nature, The nature of springs, Burning springs, The nature of magnetism, Compound bodies are mostly void, The nature of disease, Airbone pathogens, The Plague of Athens (430 BCE), Symptoms of the plague, The plague of hopelessness, The inadequacy of religion

Frugality has a limit for Epicureans, true, but bread and water are not described as frugal pleasures:

"Therefore I teem with sweet [sensations] through a modest body, desiring water and bread, and I spit upon pleasures that come from extravagance not because of them, but because of the difficulties that follow them. (Usener Fragment 181 / Bailey 37)

"[T]hen Dioklḗs in the third [book] of his Epitome affirms [Epíkouros] lived his cheapest and simplest life; 'well a teacup,' [he] affirms 'of the cheap wine is sufficient, but just the water would be the [preferred] drink [for] us.'" (Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers 10.11).