Posts by Godfrey

Can't say why that brings this to mind...

Happy 20th, all!

Personally, I kind of like "corrosive": these desires eat away at our well-being. But I would look at this similarly to the way that I look at the Tetrapharmakon, which is as a mnemonic for people who are already comfortable of the ideas of natural, unnatural, necessary, unnecessary. In this case, "corrosive" just adds a little oomph to the concept.

Lately I've become interested in Dia de los Muertos as something compatible with EP. At least as far as remembering and celebrating our deceased loved ones. It probably has a supernatural element that isn't compatible but, at least for me that's easily ignored.

Here in southern California the decorations abound and it seems to be widely celebrated, so it's kind of a natural fit. Probably not so much in the Southern states....

Quote from Cassius

I would think that it would probably be a generality that a physicist would likely consider discovery as generically more pleasurable than many other pleasures, or else one would not choose to be a physicist

True, but this choice would then be tested by actual experience once the choice has been made. As another example, consider somebody who chooses the law as a profession. Many who make that choice continue in a long and pleasurable career, while others quickly burn out and find something less painful to pursue. And for the ones who remain in the profession, often a process ensues of navigating their way to the most enjoyable way to practice, which may prove to be far different than the practice they initially envisioned.

Digressing to a physicist, or anyone making a creative discovery or innovation....

The desire for fame is what I would consider a prime example of an unnatural desire, so I'll ignore that. Even so, often a creative discovery is the result of "scratching an itch," or problem solving to remove a pain. Additionally, the creative process itself is often pleasurable yet often tortuous. All to say that the predominance of pleasure over pain might be quantifiable in retrospect for a very specific instance, but that it's ridiculous to try to make a generic statement ranking the pleasure of making a discovery as higher or lower than any other specific pleasure.

By which I'm agreeing with the posts above that emphasize that understanding the guidance of one's personal pleasures and pains is the proper emphasis for living an Epicurean lifestyle.

This discussion touches on a way in which hedonism often harbors an awareness of the well-being of others, even those beyond our immediate loved ones. For some, such as myself, the thought of the harm to, say, society in this case, brings personal pain which may outweigh any pleasure that I would experience from the technology in question. One could call that being a Luddite, or you could think of it as listening to one's feelings to better assess how to respond to a situation.

A key to listening to one's feelings is understanding that feelings change over time, and one needs to be open to continually assessing their feelings over time. This is the process.

Anyway, back to the discussion....

Say farewell to AI bubble, prepare for the crash:

Say farewell to AI bubble, prepare for the crash

A sidebar on grief, and its many layers...

One aspect to consider, which I think can only follow after the wailing war widow phase, is to parse out what exactly you are grieving. Is it for your loved one's experience of being no more? Are you grieving for yourself, as you live in loneliness? Is it the fear of moving on, and in doing so losing your memories of your loved one? Is it grief for what the deceased will never have a chance to do?

Then there's the practical aspect of moving forward and continuing to pursue your most fulfilling life. You're in a place that you never expected to be. You might be older and more vulnerable than in the past, realizing that you need to be open to life and new possibilities, and that you have to learn new ways of doing so.

Obviously there's much more. But Epicurus has provided a framework, if not a path, to continue to pursue your best life. His opponents, in their glib talk of manliness and strength. Have completely missed the point.

This reminds me of the hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers".... marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before (that's from memory, I may have misquoted).

Regarding Grok: [Grok chatbot studies Musk’s views before answering](https://edition.pagesuite.com/popovers/dynamic_article_popover.aspx?guid=caba25fa-1924-426f-b152-620ea173d406&v=sdk)

That Meno certainly was a cheeky bugger! At any rate, I seem to have completely missed this, and to my detriment. Thanks!

Cassius would you refresh my memory on the particular paradox of Meno that you're referring to?

Quote from Kalosyni

Now...what happens if it is a tie?

This is why I don't like the term "hedonic calculus"!

Are we aware of any extent Epicurean texts on the subject of grief?

Quote

But he makes the alleviation of grief depend on two things, a ceasing to think on evil, and a turning to the contemplation of pleasure. For he thinks that the mind may possibly be under the power of reason, and follow her directions; he forbids us, therefore, to mind trouble, and calls us off from sorrowful reflections: he throws a mist over our eyes to hinder us from the contemplation of misery.

Except for the last phrase, this makes sense if you think of it in terms of focusing on pleasant memories of the subject of grief, and not dwelling on the unpleasant memories. As he continues beyond this quote, though, he seems to be describing bad Stoic advice to distract from grief by thinking about unrelated things to drive grief from your mind. To my understanding, this technique generally doesn't end well as it just represses the Feelings.

PD40 comes to mind: All those who have the power to obtain the greatest confidence from their neighbors also live with each other most enjoyably in the most steadfast trust; and experiencing the strongest fellowship they do not lament as pitiful the untimely end of those who pass away. Which seems to me to say that in the context of both you and the departed having lived good Epicurean lives, there's really no reason for excessive grieving. As stand-alone advice it becomes muddled, as do so many ideas when presented by Cicero.

Comparing this to the wise man on the rack: the initial pain can't be avoided, but having a solid foundation in the philosophy, remembering the good feelings you've had (and shared, in the case of grief) can balance and/or overcome that pain.

Lately, as a way to encompass the idea of the full range of pleasure, I've been equating pleasure with "a good feeling" (or feeling good, or a good Feeling). Similarly, equating pain to "a bad feeling".

A good feeling might come from simply taking a deep breath. It might also come in the midst of wrestling with intensely painful (feeling really bad) emotions or other struggles. Or a good feeling might come after a day of intensely focused or otherwise effortful work. Or after earning a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy. Or raising a child. Or an exceptionally sweaty workout, or a victorious competition. Or while viewing art that you connect with. Or seeing a random act of levity on your drive home from work.

Looking at it in this way, maybe the amount of effort involved in pursuing pleasure isn't necessarily the effort involved in performing the activity leading to a good feeling, which obviously can vary greatly from one activity to another. Instead, the effort involved in pursuing pleasure is the work to be done to make available the mental bandwidth to notice and appreciate good feelings and to weigh potential good feelings against potential bad feelings. If this work is done, joy can be had in even the most intense effort applied to a specific task, in enduring intense anguish or in the briefest moment of perception.

This comes to mind from Lucretius book V: 1198-1203 ish:

It is no piety to show oneself

Bowing with veiled head towards a stone,

Nor to be seen frequenting every altar,

Nor to fall prostrate on the ground, with palms outspread 1200

Before the shrines of gods, nor deluge altars

With streams of blood from beasts, vow piled on vow.

True piety is for a man to have the power

To contemplate the world with quiet mind.

Quote from Cassius

This is probably a good time for a reminder that the only authoritative explanation (so far as I recall at the moment - are there others?) of the natural/necessary classification (aside from the scholium in DL which is of uncertain source) is that of Torquatus in On Ends (Reid translation).

Cassius I'm not sure that I'm reading your post #30 correctly but, for reference, here are PDs relevant to the categories of desires:

PD26 The desires that do not bring pain when they go unfulfilled are not necessary; indeed they are easy to reject if they are hard to achieve or if they seem to produce harm.

PD21 One who perceives the limits of life knows how easy it is to expel the pain produced by a lack of something and to make one's entire life complete; so that there is no need for the things that are achieved through struggle.

PD29 Among desires, some are natural and necessary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).

PD30 Among natural desires, those that do not bring pain when unfulfilled and that require intense exertion arise from groundless opinion; and such desires fail to be stamped out not by nature but because of the groundless opinions of humankind.

Rolf I'll riff on your questions without, at least for the moment, any specific citations other than to say that everything I'm about to refer to is in the PDs. For me, the PDs have been tricky. At the beginning they sounded rather obscure, but as I have read, paused and returned to them over various intervals they seem to be pretty straightforward, although incredibly insightful. They require time and percolation.

First, living with chronic pain is a case study in the way in which it is unhelpful to imagine that there's a neutral state. The neutral state is, to me, a product of laziness and lack of rigor. When I've found myself thinking that I'm in a neutral state, I've repeatedly noticed that it really means that I'm not paying attention. Once I pay more attention to my feelings, I invariably notice subtle pleasures and pains at various places in my body and mind.

From this it becomes evident that, as stated in the PDs, pleasures and pains have intensity, location and duration. I often find that some of my parts are in pleasure or pain, but others not so much, or quite the opposite. And a feeling in one part might be drowning out a feeling in another part. A feeling may spread from one part to others: sciatica that comes and goes may prompt mental anticipation of pain, which causes muscles to tense, which lights up the sciatica... &c. (This could be thought of as an example of "pain v suffering".) Or a subtle feeling of pleasure might spread, thus increasing in location and perhaps duration.

Eventually, it becomes apparent that none of the feelings are constant, at least up to an extreme point as per PD04.

For me, part of the beauty of Epicurus' analysis of pleasure and pain is that it is exceptionally nuanced and provides the Epicurist so much to work with. We can offset various pains by noticing and dialing in to pleasures in other parts, and we can work at increasing these pleasures even if we can't seem to diminish the pains. We can seek pleasure strategically when we understand what, for each of us, provides the greatest payoff in terms of maximizing our pleasure and minimizing our pain. Sometimes this takes time. Lots of time. But we humans are intricate instruments, not the golems that Cicero and the Stoics imagine us to be.

Apologies for lurking; lots going on in my life these days. I just want to toss in the observation that both pleasure and pain are guides to choosing and avoiding. We strive for pleasure and consider pain an "evil". But even as we sometimes choose a pain in the service of greater pleasure, even being more aware of our pains can provide us with guidance to greater pleasure.

Complete absence of pain, which is the fullness of pleasure, while it sounds great, is for "the gods". The rest of us may enjoy it from time to time, and the rest of the time it's a goal to strive for.

Of course there's VS41:

One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy.