Posts by Bryan

It is clear that Epíkouros, in Book 28, takes up Plato's discussion of "conventionalist" vs. "naturalist" views of language.

A linguistic conventionalist thinks that languages come about only by convention. The conventionalist denies a word's intrinsic relationship to a class of objects and therefore asserts that any word can refer to a particular class of objects—and that no particular word is better per se for this purpose.

In contrast, Epíkouros recognizes that linguistic conventions originate from an intrinsic relationship between a class of objects and the primary expression naturally used (specific to race and location) to identify that class. Languages originated from natural impulses. Because of this, most words inherently apply to an originally specific concept. Therefore, Epíkouros recommends that we base our vocabulary upon these fundamental meanings.

So even though Epíkouros and Cratylus both disagree with Hermogenes regarding convention, Epíkouros and Cratylus disagree on the basis of "correct" usage (with Epíkouros basing this in automatic association of fundamental etymologies, and Cratylus in the divine origins of language).

The word we are looking at is εὐκαταφρόνητος.

Bailey does bring out the "despise" aspect of καταφρονεῖν (which does not have the good/easy "eu"):

^{[Bailey 10.80b]} So we must carefully consider in how many ways a similar phenomenon is produced on earth, when we reason about the causes of celestial phenomena and all that is imperceptible to the senses; and we must despise those persons who do not recognize either what exists or comes into being in one way only, or that which may occur in several ways in the case of things which can only be seen by us from a distance, and further are not aware under what conditions it is impossible to have peace of mind.

Here is how it fits:

The word places the object of consideration below (ΚΑΤΑ) the subject that is considering (ΦΡΟΝ) and affords agency (ΕΥ) to that subject. So we could bend it up to "good to despise" or down to "easily disregardable," with lots of options in the middle.

The waning gibbous shown on both sides with a curved mirror.

Cassius, you got a shoutout at 38:32:

15ο Πανελλήνιο Συμπόσιο Επικούρειας Φιλοσοφίας Ημέρα 1η

Σάββατο 15 Φεβρουαρίου 2025www.epicuros.gr

www.youtube.com

Quote from AxA

Here's my draft brochure for the in-person Eikas this weekend.

Hello, and welcome to the website. Your brochure looks great! Thank you for sharing.

The Tetraphármakos can be a good jumping-off point, but I wanted to point out that Cassius' reservations regarding it seem to be shared by Philodemus -- who, just before he quotes the Tetraphármakos (and this is the only source for it) says:

"...of those who are called Epicureans. While someone known or even described in detail by us, who also claims to be 'the authentic reader' on select writings and on a multitude of compositions – even if he performs poorly, he has selected many passages, but in individual thoughts he is the most inexperienced! In fact, for what he must do, he looks only at the main points – just like [someone] whom they say is 'a helmsman [navigating] from the book.'"

(Philódēmos, [Ad Contubernales], P.Herc. 1005, col. 3/4)

That looks great, Kalosyni, although I think the date for the founding of the garden should be 307/306 BCE (after leaving Lampsacus), aligning with Demetrius Poliorcetes' "capture" of the city in 307 BCE.

That is Μαρίνα Δακανάλη (Marina Dakanali) singing.

Yannis Avramidis was a lot of fun.

At the end, everyone was invited to a local restaurant.

Intermission (with a brief Bouzouki appearance). It is going well, and the echo issue has been mostly resolved.

Unfortunately the current live version has very difficult audio -- lots of echo. Hopefully the post-live upload will use a more direct audio source.

Spudceus I suppose is most likely from Spoudaios meaning "serious, earnest, diligent." I do not see that it is related to anything else or a reference to anyone.

I know Erasmus is joking, so we can asume that syphilis/pox was not ever really called the garden gout... right? And this is presumably a reference to the (poisonous) mercury treatment for syphilis:

Hedonius "Do they not Epicurise gloriously?"
Spudceus "Yes, if coming often to the powdering tub be doing so."

In a part of his work On Poetry, Philodemus spends 170 columns (around 18,000 words) rebutting the theories of Heracleodorus. There is also little doubt that Lucretius would have been aware of Heracleodorus' arguments. Reading through Janko's summary of Heracleodorus' ideas shows that there was a lot to object to:

(i) Genre, and the diction and content peculiar to genre, do not matter for poetic excellence; for the pleasure of poetry comes from composition rather than from language or content, which are shared with others. In fact, mimes like Sophron's are said to be poems; since even good prose-writers, like Demosthenes, Xenophon, and Herodotus, are actually poets, metre is irrelevant.

(ii) The contents of poetry, even including raw materials as ugly as fish, chamber-pots, or garlic, are irrelevant to composition, as is seen in passages from Archilochus, Sophocles, and Euripides. This is because content is irrelevant without good composition, and becomes beautiful from the particularity of the elaboration; good content need not entail good composition, as witness Chaeremon. So long as content is well composed, it may be shared or invented, or even false or unrecognizable, as Euripides shows. Artistry can redeem incomprehensible content. Poetry, like metalwork, needs artistry; composition, not raw material, is its particularity.

(iii) Obscurity can be good if the composition is good, as witness the minor tragedian (Anti)philus as compared with Hipponax and Empedocles, who also wrote tragedies. Homer entices us with his unclear proems, and poetic words are enthralling even if they are obscure, as many examples in Homer and Alcaeus prove. It is sound, not content or diction, that benefits verses. Different craftsmen, like ring-engravers and writers, use different materials, but all aim at achieving excellence in representation by means of their different media.

(iv) Excellence lies not in the composition but in the euphony that supervenes upon it, as is proved by rearrangements of the words in verses from poets such as Homer. Such metatheses prove that diction, word-choice, or content do not create beauty. Since sound, not content like plot or character, determines which verses are superior, as witness Choerilus and Anaximenes when compared with Homer, word-choice or content is not the cause of sound. Even prose-writers aim not at truth, but at pleasure, and poets must please the many by applying vivid new words to difficult contents; such words shine brightest when they first appear, like purple garments. The imitation of content must contribute to euphony via majestic and opulent diction, even if the poet utters total absurdities; but the choice of Homeric words does not by itself create the musical sonority that Heraclides desiderated.

(v) Plot depends on the poet's excellence, as we can see from Homer and Archilochus; bad poets often attempt fine plots, but fail to construct them well. Character too depends on the poet's excellence, which enables him to depict men, women, slaves, and animals without becoming comic or iambic. Not content, but excellence in composition, is the particularity of poetry; pleasing composition of diction that vividly, suggestively, clearly, and concisely expresses the underlying meaning is excellence, provided that it maintains poetic style and is suited to the genres, as poets do not prefer clarity to the tragic manner. Critics wrongly claim that the particularity lies in composition that conveys clever, beneficial, or exceptional content, or in character, but character does not determine excellence; composition is its sole cause. Excellence depends not on content, diction, or accidence, but on composition as necessitated by the sounds; when vividness creates excellence, it relies on sound. Critics wrongly claim that verse depends on its material and its writer, his diction and his thought.

(vi) The representation of intelligible content is related to genre, as witness epic style, which contains all the genres. However, genre is irrelevant to excellence, whether we compare Homer to Archilochus, Euripides, or anyone else; rather, it is excellence that creates style, if not also genre.

Heracleodorus (1st century BCE) - Wikipedia

Quote from Titus

speculative transformative sect of Epicureanism—one that opens gates to the heavens and allows eidola to persist and manifest in a metaphysical realm

This is quite close to Platonism, where your spirit gets to go live in the star god made for you (so long as you understand your geometry):

"[Plato, Timaeus, 41d fin.] And when He had compounded the whole He divided it into souls equal in number to the stars, and each several soul He assigned to one star, [41e] and setting them each as it were in a chariot He showed them the nature of the Universe, and declared unto them the laws of destiny,—namely, how that the first birth should be one and the same ordained for all, in order that none might be slighted by Him; and how it was needful that they, when sown each into his own proper organ of time, should grow into the most god-fearing of living creatures."

"[42b fin.] And if they shall master these they will live justly, but if they are mastered, unjustly. And he that has lived his appointed time well shall return again to his abode in his native star, and shall gain a life that is blessed and congenial but whoso has failed therein shall be changed into woman's nature at the second birth; and if, in that shape, he still refraineth not from wickedness [42c] he shall be changed every time, according to the nature of his wickedness, into some bestial form..."

To step away from Plato, and into Epíkouros' physics: the eidola do persist over time, and can certainly persist and manifest beyond our lifetime. Nevertheless, we do not experience what our eidola "experience" [i.e., how they are impacted], nor can our eidola (or anything else) manifest in a "metaphysical realm."

Thanks for sharing!

This is excellent—very calm, cool, and clear.

I agree! The basic idea that 'there are other options!' is a great entry point for general audiences—and you provided a brilliant explanation of the active/static pleasure issue. Thanks!

Plato takes 120 of the 30-60-90 triangles to form the icosahedron (twenty of these groupings of six):

"[55b] And the third solid is composed of twice sixty of the elemental triangles conjoined, and of twelve solid angles, each contained by five plane equilateral triangles, and it has, by its production, twenty equilateral triangular bases."

Plato takes four of these groupings of six to form the tetrahedron:

"And when four equilateral triangles are combined so that three plane angles [55a] meet in a point, they form one solid angle, which comes next in order to the most obtuse of the plane angles. And when four such angles are produced, the first solid figure is constructed, which divides the whole of the circumscribed sphere into equal and similar parts."

I think that part of Plato's argument is that the simplest possible plane is a triangle: therefore, this shape is properly considered the most basic building block for extending into three-dimensional space. Before we go 3D, Plato starts with a 30-60-90 triangle and -- from six of those -- and builds an equilateral triangle.

[54d] "In the next place we have to explain the form in which each Kind has come to exist and the numbers from which it is compounded. First will come that form which is primary and has the smallest components, and the element thereof is that triangle which has its hypotenuse twice as long as its lesser side. And when a pair of such triangles are joined along the line of the hypotenuse, and this is done thrice, by drawing the hypotenuses [54e] and the short sides together as to a center, there is produced from those triangles, six in number, one equilateral triangle."

It seems the tradition of keeping dodecahedrons for intellectual stimulation rather than practical use continued on, as seen in this antique "zodiac paperweight."

Quote from Don

"Pleasure is the reason I do everything."

Yes, I fully agree. Our pleasure should be our continuous guide. We have pleasure, but we need to act in a way that ensures we continue to have it.

I think of pleasure as something like a compass. The boat is afloat, and it is a pleasure to be sailing: but we are always traveling through the seas of time, and we must steer in a coherent direction—or else risk sailing into storms or crashing against reefs.

Many people have goals beyond their own pleasure — some give too much of themselves, others take too much for themselves, while almost all seek unnecessary change of some sort — and this leads them into many unpleasant and unnecessary circumstances!

Cicero was certainly correct that the Timaeus is obscure—and I agree that the reader of Plato develops a sympathy for this obscurity, as Plato does seem to sincerely wish to be as clear as possible. In fact, the Timaeus is really the same geometric explanation repeated three different times, gradually introducing the complexity.

This sort of 'clarity through repetition' or 'clarity through saying your point in different ways' seems to be something that Epíkouros also employs in On Nature.

Quote from Cassius

In this case I don't gather that its reconstructed, but rather intended to set off certain sections of text as being referenced rather than being the words of Diogenes himself, but I'm just not sure.

That is correct, this is a well preserved section. There are a few letters missing here and there, but what is in quotes is present in the ancient Greek.