Posts by Matteng

First I see is that it is all about mental (self caused ) Emotions, bodily pain/ pleasure is out. In Stoicism this are indifferents and in control of fate/nature/logos.

When I understood Philodemus right, I think the Epicurean view would only match with the Stoic view when the Emotion

1) has harmful consequences ( pleasure then is not choiceworthy for example )
2) is irrational, based on empty believe
3) is based on unnecessary desire

In short when the Emotions lead to more pain than pleasure.

From wikipedia:

Distress (lupē)

Distress is an irrational contraction, or a fresh opinion that something bad is present, at which people think it right to be depressed.

Fear (phobos)

Fear is an irrational aversion, or avoidance of an expected danger.

Lust (epithumia)

Lust is an irrational desire, or pursuit of an expected good but in reality bad.

Delight (hēdonē)

Delight is an irrational swelling, or a fresh opinion that something good is present, at which people think it right to be elated.

Two of these passions (distress and delight) refer to emotions currently present, and two of these (fear and lust) refer to emotions directed at the future.^[9] Thus there are just two states directed at the prospect of good and evil, but subdivided as to whether they are present or future:^[10]

Hi,

How do you see the Stoic theory/ view of the passions/ pathei/apatheia/ eupathei and hoe differ it in the Epicurean view ? I know Philodemus did there much.

Stoic passions - Wikipedia

When examples are stated that hedonism leads to „bad“ outcomes, this „bad“ is instead the proof for hedonism. Because all value judgements are based on feelings. And prudent hedonists choose more good than bad outcomes / consequences.

Examples for hedonist defenders:

And sometimes I think there are often false dichotomies or strawmens accussed against hedonism or Epicureanism like Virtue vs Pleasure.

For this subject for example it is not only means vs Ends but we can judge/value (with our feelings) the means and the ends.

For example the horrific idea of murdering 1 healthy person and spending his/her organs to save the lifes of 5 other persons.

To allow this we would loose security and the right for life (which is a social institution based on social contract) and no one would want to be the spender.

Or another example is when Kant was asked if to lie could be ok when saving lifes. He denied it and gave (ironically ) the reason that would lead society in confusion and destroy trust between people. What he not recognized is that his reasoning is based on the utility ( trust, no confusing).

You have only to ask many times "Why" an Deontologists/Kantian and you get to their core reasonings which they have to admit => you value everything with Pleasure/Pain/Feeling/Utility

Very important subject for me, but have no final conclusions on it. Interesting for me is also the difference between the Stoic and Epicurean view.

Seems that Epicureans focus more on pleasure/pain and the Stoics more on negative Emotions.

Epicureans: Reduce Pain

Stoics: Reduce Pathe negative Emotions/Passion based on judgment

Especially mental Pleasure/Pain is interesting when the Emotions depend on our judgments.

The Stoics are very successful in CBT but I think the Epicurean could that too with the contribution of Philodemus who did much in the field of therapy.

Is pleasure/pain the core of our values ? And what does it mean when someone values Pain like Ice bathing or to challenge onself ?
Maybe more levels of Pain/Pleasure ? Can we change Pleasure/Pain with reason ? Judgment ? In some cases Epicurus would agree and has CBT insights like the fear of death, fear of superstition, fear of pain, harmful desire…

Hirams Essays on Epicurean Virtue are so good, I come many time back to him when this subject confuses me or Stoics try to convinced about their view:

On Epicurean Virtue | Society of Friends of Epicurus

Dialogue On Virtue | Society of Friends of Epicurus

Philodemus’ Method of Studying and Cultivating the Virtues | Society of Friends of Epicurus

But how to grow Virtue and the Pleasant Life in a good way ?

What I read from the Epicurean texts:

-> Improve Prudence:

- Sober Reasoning

- Hedonic Calculus

- Reflection of Desires / Values

- Eleminating unnecessary fears/ pain ( with a realistic world view )

- Train to Endure Pains/ Fears for greater Pleasure / reducing greater Pain/Fears

- Try active to be more other regarding / altruistic ( philia/friendship ) but in a prudent way.

- In best case everyone is your friend but that is not possible in this world, here live psychopaths and humans with harmful dispositions, there is no natural law, cosmopolitism or human rights who protect you. So justice is prudent and sometimes to avoid people or protect from them:

John Allen Chau - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Reminds me on the Epictetus quote for Epicurus: "Be not deceived; be not seduced and mistaken. There is no natural tie between reasonable beings. Believe me. Those who say otherwise mislead and impose upon you“

Patrikios

The Stoics would see Virtue as internal and Pleasure mostly as external when it is caused from objects. But how Virtue is seen by others reminds me in Cicero wurh his „ heros of the past“ who define Virtue.

Yes I see both, pleasure in the Virtuous disposition ( like gratefulness or feeling philia/friendship, or love instead of hate, envy … ) and in getting things desires better.

To get a better understanding of Virtues it could help to have a look at the "sub-virtues" to see more aspects of them. In my opinion the core of them all is prudence (phronesis ) and friendship (philia ) so the rational and social aspect for a good or better life which sometimes makes it necessary to endure pain for greater pleasure (hedonic calculus for example, enduring pain for others... ).

I would also like to point out that the following overview is a purely human classification and is not set in stone; there are/were other classifications/aspects in antiquity. Another caveat is that these classifications were often made by philosophers for whom virtue represented the highest good (so be careful when it is about Pleasure or Piety for Gods) .

Wisdom – Φρόνησις (Phronēsis)

Good sense – εὐβουλία (euboulia)
Good calculation – εὐλογιστία (eulogistia)
Quick-wittedness – ἀγχίνοια (anchinoia)
Discretion – σύνεσις (synesis)
Resourcefulness – εὐμηχανία (eumēchania)


Justice – Δικαιοσύνη (Dikaiosynē)

Piety – ὁσιότης (hosiotēs)
Honesty / Truthfulness – ἀλήθεια (alētheia)
Equity / Fairness – ἰσότης (isotēs)
Fair dealing / Non-greed – ἀνεξικακία (anexikakia, sometimes glossed as forbearance)

Courage – Ἀνδρεία (Andreia)

Endurance – καρτερία (karteria)
Confidence – θαρραλεότης (tharraleotēs)
High-mindedness / Magnanimity – μεγαλοψυχία (megalopsychia)
Cheerfulness – εὐθυμία (euthymia)
Industriousness / Hard work – φιλοπονία (philoponia)


Temperance – Σωφροσύνη (Sōphrosynē)

Good discipline – εὐταξία (eutaxia)
Seemliness / Decorum – κόσμιος (kosmios)
Modesty – αἰδώς (aidōs)
Self-control – ἐγκράτεια (enkrateia)

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Here is a similiar classification/explanation:

Forty-Four Stoic Virtues: Pseudo-Andronicus’ On Passions, and Stoic Life by Matthew Sharpe

Introduction  It is well-known that the Stoics hold there to be four cardinal virtues: courage (andreia), justice (dikaiosunê), moderation (sôphrosunê), and…

modernstoicism.com

The Epicurean way of life is the way of Virtue and Pleasure.

Here is an quote from Philodemus which extends the one from PD and letter from Menoeceus:

„It is impossible for one to live pleasurably without living prudently and honourably and justly, and also without living courageously and temperately and magnanimously, and without making friends and without being philanthropic, and in general without having all the other virtues. For the greatest errors in things we choose or avoid occur when some people accomplish individual actions while they hold the opposite view and, because of that, are in the grip of vices. (De elect. XIV. 1–14)“

Book: The Ethics of Philodemus, from Voula Tsouna

Thanks, I often worry

that the topic sometimes fades into the background because rivals to Epicurean philosophy often define virtue as the highest good instead of Pleasure.

One must be careful not to create a false dichotomy like virtue vs. pleasure. In Epicureanism, virtue and pleasure grow together, but virtue gets its value from pleasure, not the other way around. Virtue is the greatest but instrumental good. Therefore, many people (as I used to) unconsciously believe that Stoics, for example, are generally more virtuous than Epicureans, which is nonsense. The path to pleasure/eudaimonia always leads via virtue. I see the biggest difference (virtue or pleasure as the core of eudaimonia/life goal) in that eudaimonia, the good self or inner spirit, is defined by the Stoics as "doing good" while Epicureans define it as "experiencing good."

From Aristotle I have seen clearer that „philia“ what is mostly tranlated as „friendship“ and often is understood as „having friends“ means also „friendly love“.
It is a form of love.

And that enhances for me the meaning, it is for me something that we do, an attitude, virtue like prudence, feeling.

It reminds me of buddhist teaching in mahayana as in the image of a bird with 2 wings -> wisdom and compassion.

Similiar to this I see prudence (phronesis) and friendly love / friendship (philia) as the main Epicurean values.

But what is an „undying/immortal good“ when death is nothing to someone ? That friends maybe live longer than me ? Hm maybe, but it is about the mortality of the good.

When is a good mortal ?
Maybe something similiar like Plato forms but in realistic and earthed ? A good that is maybe not fleeting but maybe has a long endurance at least until the own death or that its consequences last longer maybe over the own death.

But that last aspect maybe confuses the mortality of humans with the mortality of goods ? 🙂🙃

Maybe neuro science will prove it someday.

Can there be anything "good" without a positiv affection ? Isn´t that ( positive affection / pleasure ) and the desire for that, what differentiates us against robots ?

When Pleasure/Pain is the core of all personal values than it is the only intrinsic good. But yes we must separate Pleasure and the consequences that have to be evaluated separately against further Pleasure/Pain.

The Stoic say that Virtue leads always to good things, Pleasure not. For that the separation is crucial. With this analysis I can see, that the statement "Virtue is always good, Pleasure not " has this problems:

1. That it is just a defintion (tautalogy) ( Virtue (the good) leads to good things/outcomes )

2. Good things / outcomes are externals for Stoics so cannot be good (in their own definition) so Virtue leads only to no-goods (indifferents/externals)

3. When Virtue is good because it always leads to good outcomes, than there is a differentiation between Virtue and "Good", so 2 separate things and Virtue gets good because of the outcomes (= what makes Virtue instrumentally and valuable only because of the outcomes)

4. And how do we value "good things/outcomes" ? With affection, feelings, so we judge everything with our feelings, in the core with Pleasure / Pain and also we judge their consequences with Pleasure/Pain.

Thats currently my prove that Pleasure is the supreme intrinsic good and not Virtue which is the greates instrumental good with its core phronesis (prudence ) and philia (friendship) which both are the basics for every ethic / moral. In my Opinion

I noticed Epicurean themes in some Marvel movies.

For example in „Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3“ the Villian is a perfectionist and his headquarter is called „Aretarium“ with the root word „Arete“ ( Virtue ) 😆

In „Thor: Love and Thunder“ there is a charicature of the greek gods, they live in a bubble, are threatened by an god killer ( who served a god who was exploitative and doesn‘t care ), and they want to ignore that fact and only plan the next orgy.

It‘s a mix for me where I see Epicureans subjects like the idifference of the gods but could also be the prejudice of the Epicureans gods or general of the greek gods.

The powerful chain of living prudence - honour - justice

It has the power to create the pleasant life, eudaimonia.

~Prudence/ reason -> Choice and Avoidance -> Connection with honour (choosing your values) and with justice ( reflecting/ choosing your behaviour with others) =>for less Pain greater Pleasure

~Honour-> Choosing your values using Prudence and Justice for that =>for less Pain greater Pleasure

~Justice-> Relation to Others -> Consider your Values (Honour) and choosing your actions and Agreements wisely (Prudence) =>for less Pain greater Pleasure

All support each other for the pleasant/eudaimomt life like a powerful almost magic chain 🙂

Your thoughts ?

Letter to Menoceus:
„Of all this the beginning and the greatest good is prudence. Wherefore prudence is a more precious thing even than philosophy: for from prudence are sprung all the other virtues, and it teaches us that it is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, (nor, again, to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice) without living pleasantly. For the virtues are by nature bound up with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them“

Why is friendship immortal ? My thoughts:

It is meant to be divine. Divine are the gods with 2 aspects: they are blessed and incorrupticle. With blessed I think the highest good/ goal is meant => Pleasure.

Conclusion: Prudence is an instrumental good but friendship ( Philia) is a Pleasure ( so blessedness so divine ) a „immortal“ good.

Your thoughts ?

Would that fit in Epicurean Cosmology ?

Big bang and big bounce / crunch was more the Stoic view or ?
And that the void is not complete empty but has energy and quantum fluktuation. Otherwise the idea that even void or space consists of a kind of particle or is quantized and not unlimited divisible and that the most of the cosmos is not much beneficial / providental to life fits more to Epicurean worldview.

Also that many cosmoi can exist develop.

Why should someone hold pleasure for evil ?
Maybe that philosphers confuse pleasure and their consequences which sometimes can be painful / harmful.

Such consequences would eveyone try to avoid for whom pleasure is the highest good.

Attacks against this insight are mostly

1. Pleasure is fleeting

and

2. There is bad Pleasure.

What defenses would you see ?
The defense of the 1. is that yes everything is fleeting, so life is fleeting ( even virtue ) but there are the more stable forms of Pleasure like Ataraxia/ tranquility.

For the 2. there Epicurus divides Pleasure and their bad consequences.

How defensable is that?

Bad Pleasures could be addictions or laziness, sadism, masochism.

Take your time, for me it is as you say one of the most important subject to distinguish Epicureanism vs the other ancient schools especially Stoicism which I followed in the past.

Quality first 👍

In addition, it is precisely on this topic that the harshest criticism of Epicureanism is voiced. For example the critics say that where Virtue is instrumental for Pleasure, this Virtue wouldn't be Virtue at all or only a weak form of it and Pleasure enslaved.

( Often the divison of Pleasure of Body and Mind is not considered, for Peace of Mind/Tranquility it often makes sense to not pursue bodily Pleasures, and for the subject of bad consequences of things which bring Pleasure like addiction, Epicurus has his answers like sober reasoning, hedonic calculus, what brings more pain than pleasure should be avoided….)

The Stoics accept only a perfected rational joy(chara). But even this they would not see as the end of the happy life but Virtue (Maybe because you can get to a form of Tranquility with ignorance and in running from challenges/duties ( another critic), but this is not suadtainable/honorable/just/prudent(defense).

A perfect Peace of Mind is only available for a perfect Sage and with Virtue (The Stoics say) ( maybe an unlimited desire for limitless self improvement ? )

Very exciting for me 👍

The Stoics who I challenge to convince me that Virtue is the only good point always to Platos Socrates Euthydemus( maybe the points which there are mentioned could be challenged):

Euthydemus

www.gutenberg.org

- Virtue is in our power Pleasure/ Tranquility depends on Externals (only true for bodily Pleasure, not so much for Mental Pleasure I think, that is an „Internal“ or ?)

-Without Virtue nothing is good

-Only with Virtue things can be used useful

Another point:
Ataraxia is Peace of mind, confidence, fearlessness etc ….

But ok I can have peace of mind / tranquility in ignoring troubling facts, taking tranquilizers or ( with virtue ) fulfilling your values, duties, confronting uncomfortable things/ situations.

The Epicureans are often accused of the first. (Defense: you need to live wise, ->honourable<-, justly to live pleasurable)