Thomas Karion please see this forum regarding your second question:
Posts by Kalosyni
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I’m not sure if this is the right forum, or even if I’m in the right section of the forum. I hope you’ll forgive me if that’s the case.
Yes, entry level (Level 1) is granted posting permissions only in their Welcome thread.
My question is this:
What do you think Epicurus would write about today if he were alive in our time?
To add to what Cassius wrote, I would say "free will vs determinism".
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Cassius this phrase is way too vague, and so I personally wouldn't state the following:
People live thinking that they should follow "virtue," or "reason," or "piety" rather than pursuing happiness through pleasure.
We see in PD16 the following:
PD16. "In but few things chance hinders a wise man, but the greatest and most important matters, reason has ordained, and throughout the whole period of life does and will ordain."
So...a possible alternative would state:
Because of pleasure we choose virtue/just actions (which are not to harm or be harmed) and this leads to the pleasure of experiencing the most pleasant life. ---> This is virtue/just actions as a tool that leads to a pleasant and fullfilling life.
Compare these two scenarios: 1) God decrees that one should not kill one's neighbor (and then that person goes ahead anyway --> This is virtue/just actions as a blind rule that is not fully understood) --vs-- 2) Reasoning and remembering that killing one's neighbor won't lead to a most pleasant life, and in fact will bring about many bad consequences (unless done as a clear act of self-defence) ---> a fully developed moral understanding that leads to a happy life.
Of course there is an additional layer of moral development, which comes from the full understanding of pain and the full understanding of conscious experience of all animals (including humans) incorporating awareness of "self and other". ---> And which I would venture to say is a newer and further development of civilization beyond Epicurean philosophy. ---> And this also leads to a pleasant and fulfilling life (which is the goal of Epicurean philosophy).
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Welcome to the forum! Thomas Karion
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Believing in fate can provide comfort by framing life's challenges as part of a "larger plan" (reducing stress by increasing acceptance of circumstances) but it may also contribute to feelings of helplessness and reduced motivation when individuals perceive outcomes as beyond their control.
I've been thinking lately that a common theme in movies is this notion of fate, that things were "meant to be", especially in romance movies. Fate is thought to be either some sort of outside force is dictating the unfolding of reality, or for those who are religious, God. This is actually so common in movies (and wider culture) that one must guard one's thinking against it.
Epicureans do not believe in fate, and seeing that things as not subject to fate is actually a liberating way of living in the world. But it does require taking responsibilty for choices and using critical thinking skills. "In but few things chance hinders a wise man, but the greatest and most important matters, reason has ordained, and throughout the whole period of life does and will ordain." PD16
According to Pew Research here are some statistics, (Report date: November 23, 2021):
QuoteOverall, 44% of U.S. adults say they believe in fate, defined as the course of their life being predetermined. This group includes half of women (51%) and 35% of men. There also are differences based on levels of educational attainment, with college graduates significantly less likely than those without a degree to say they believe in fate (32% vs. 49%).
So now the question is this: do you notice people around you believing in fate, or do you notice yourself occasionally slipping into that way of thinking?
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The following article is interesting regarding AI, but also brings up questions regarding morals -- and for us here on the forum that would be such things as comparing religion vs. Epicurean philosophy. And I would suggest since this about training AI, that it would specifically be regarding what not to do.
While the end result of the actions of a "morally correct" Christian (regarding what not to do) might be similar in many areas of life, as compared to a "morally correct" Epicurean, they arrive there by very different methods, as we can see in PD33.
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Also, is this translation the entirety of the Encounter With Epicurus?
After the young man posing this natural next step question, we’re left hanging, waiting for the next instructions from wise old Epicurus.
This fragment is an excerpt from a much larger body of work, which focuses only on a presentation of Epicurean philosophy. The rest of the story is not Epicurean at all. If anyone is interested how the story ends, on the last page of the PDF there's a link to the original which is available on Archive.org.
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Happy Twentieth Everyone!
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Bryan This thread is relevant to what came up in this afternoon's Zoom discussion.
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“The Epicureans wore styled and trimmed beards” I do not see the source for this information in the article… do we know where the source is?
I can't find any source that says "styled and trimmed", just this:
Alciphron's Letters of Parasites, translation by A. R. Benner and F. H. Forbes, as quoted in The Mask of Socrates, the relevant sentence reads: “And there was the Epicurean Zenocrates, not indifferent to his curls, he also proud of his full beard..."
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Edit note: I have not been able to find textual sources for the following information regarding Epicureans.
QuoteThis assertion of identity through one’s facial hair has a long history. Greek and Roman philosophers distinguished themselves from politicians and laypeople by sporting beards, and even distinguished among themselves by their school of thought and the style associated with it.
The Epicureans wore styled and trimmed beards; the Stoics wore big, full beards; and the Cynics wore shaggy, dirty beards, “to show their disdain for the political, physical world and their rejection of its norms,” says Christopher Oldstone-Moore, a historian whose forthcoming book Of Beards and Men: The Revealing History of Facial Hair delves into the history and politics of beards.
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Edit note on October 17, 2026: have not found a true source for the phrase "styled and trimmed".
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Beyond just reading Book 3 of Lucretius, this lecture could be helpful regarding the nature of the soul:
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Here are my notes from last night's Zoom meeting:
Apologies as these are pretty rough. After the topic was presented, we went around the Zoom circle to ask for thoughts. I did not take note of who said what, so these are anonymous.
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atomic theory --> occums razor --> no way of verifying after-life --> different religions have different views
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Why does a material soul not continue on?
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traditions embedded in the culture
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science agrees with Epicurus ---> no supernatural/ no life after death/ no god(s)
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law of excluded middle --> either matter or not matter
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energy [not just atoms]
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continuity of memory is a sticking point
memory as a physical explanation (loss of memory)
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black box thinking
kids grow up with this supernatural thinking
God is one big black box
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Lucretius Book 3 presents relevant argument
soul comes from the body, soul is part of the body, literally physically part of your body, your psyche
just like you can't remove a hand and have the hand still stay alive
your body is a vessel --> just lik a vessel leaks away water when it breaks --> and smoke wafts away --> when the body breaks the soul leaks away
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need to reason through --> one argument is better than another
viable, consistent, with evidence
attestation --> reason to think this
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Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics - David Sedley
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attestation from the senses
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observable and measurable
can never have evidence of going to heaven and some things can't be measured
people are hoping for their own immortality
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doxa ---> judgement
junk assertion, no way to prove or disprove
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Christopher Hitchens quote: what is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
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Creating a concise explanation would also be the basis and reasoning behind recognizing that the soul is mortal and that the gods are indifferent.
This might be of interest: Chapter 2 - "Atomic Worlds" of Catherine Wilson's book Epicureanism: A Very Short Introduction (but I don't have it)...here is a link to the overview:
https://academic.oup.com/book/746/chapter-abstract/135401379?login=false&redirectedFrom=fulltext
QuoteWilson's insights into atomic worlds highlight a shift from traditional philosophical views that often incorporate divine oversight or eternal consequences. Instead, she advocates for a perspective grounded in materialism and the understanding of nature, which can lead to a more liberated and pleasurable existence.
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I wanted to start this thread so that we can create a concise explanation of the reasoning from start to finish about how we come to understand that the universe is a material universe. This would be based on both Letter to Pythocles and Letter to Herodotus...as well as Lucretius. The purpose of this is so that we can all easily explain this both to ourselves and to others.
Also, to see if there is anything we need to add from modern understanding, or is the Epicurean explanation complete.
More coming soon.
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The following post has been copied and posted here, due to it's relevance on reflection and decision making.
I used ChatGPT with the query: "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of Epicurean preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making".
Here is the result:
QuoteDisplay MoreSelf-Help Technique: Using Epicurean Preconceptions (Prolepsis) for Decision-Making
1. Understanding the Concept
In Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions (prolepsis) are general concepts or mental understandings we develop through experience. They help us recognize and evaluate things such as pleasure, pain, happiness, friendship, and justice.
Epicurus believed that pleasure is the highest good, but this does not mean pursuing every immediate pleasure. Instead, we should use reason to distinguish between pleasures that contribute to lasting well-being and those that lead to greater pain or distress.
By applying prolepsis to everyday decisions, individuals can reflect on their existing understanding of what makes life good and use it as a guide when choosing between alternatives.
2. The Technique: The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method
Purpose: To help individuals make thoughtful decisions by examining their preconceptions about happiness, pleasure, pain, and well-being.
Step 1: Identify the decision.
Clearly state the decision you need to make.
For example:
- Should I accept a promotion that offers a higher salary but requires significantly longer working hours?
Step 2: Identify your relevant preconceptions.
Reflect on your general understanding of what makes life fulfilling. Consider the following questions:
- What does a happy life mean to me?
- What do I understand by pleasure and suffering?
- What role do peace of mind, health, friendship, and financial security play in my well-being?
For example, you may recognize that you associate happiness with financial security, meaningful relationships, sufficient rest, and freedom from unnecessary stress.
These preconceptions provide a starting point for evaluating your decision.
Step 3: Examine the immediate and long-term consequences.
Evaluate each available option according to the pleasure and pain it may produce.
Consider the following example:
Consideration Accepting the promotion Declining the promotion Immediate pleasure Excitement about increased income and recognition Relief from additional responsibilities Potential immediate pain Anxiety about greater demands Disappointment about missing an opportunity Long-term benefits Greater financial security and career development More free time and a better work-life balance Potential long-term costs Less sleep, increased stress, and reduced time with loved ones Slower career advancement and less income The goal is not to eliminate all discomfort. Instead, it is to consider whether a temporary difficulty might produce a worthwhile benefit or whether an immediate pleasure could lead to greater suffering later.
Step 4: Test the decision against your preconceptions.
Compare the consequences of each option with your understanding of a good life.
Ask yourself:
- Does this option support the kind of happiness I consider important?
- Am I pursuing this opportunity because it genuinely improves my life, or because I want social recognition?
- Will the additional income reduce a meaningful source of anxiety?
- Could the additional responsibilities undermine my health or relationships?
For example, if you recognize that peace of mind and close relationships are essential to your happiness, you might question whether the additional salary justifies a substantial loss of personal time.
However, if your current financial situation causes significant distress, the promotion might offer a valuable improvement in your well-being.
The important point is to examine the actual consequences rather than automatically favoring either pleasure or the avoidance of pain.
Step 5: Make a reasoned choice.
Choose the option that best supports your overall well-being after considering its likely consequences.
Suppose you determine that your current salary already provides sufficient financial security, while the promotion would substantially increase your stress and reduce your time with family.
You might decide to decline the promotion and seek opportunities for professional growth that offer a better balance between income and personal well-being.
Alternatively, if the promotion would help you resolve serious financial difficulties and its demands were manageable, accepting it might be the more reasonable choice.
Step 6: Reflect on the outcome.
After making your decision, evaluate its effects.
Ask yourself:
- Did my decision contribute to my well-being?
- Were my expectations about pleasure and pain accurate?
- What have I learned that could help me make better decisions in the future?
This reflection can help you refine your practical judgment and improve future decisions.
It is important to distinguish this reflective exercise from prolepsis itself: in Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions are not simply personal preferences or beliefs that can be freely changed. Rather, they are general concepts that provide a basis for recognizing and understanding things. Reflection and experience help you apply those concepts to particular circumstances.
3. A Practical Worksheet for Daily Use
You can use the following worksheet whenever you face a difficult decision.
The Epicurean Preconception Decision Worksheet
- My decision: What choice do I need to make?
- My understanding of a good life: What do I consider essential to happiness and well-being?
- My relevant preconceptions: What do I understand by pleasure, pain, peace of mind, friendship, health, or security in this situation?
- Option A: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
- Option B: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
- Reasoned evaluation: Which option is more likely to contribute to my overall well-being, considering both its benefits and its costs?
- My decision: Which option will I choose, and why?
- Reflection: What did I learn from the outcome?
You can complete this worksheet in five to ten minutes, although more complicated decisions may require additional research and reflection.
4. Why This Technique May Be Helpful
This technique applies Epicurean ideas to practical decision-making in several ways.
- Clarifies personal priorities: Reflecting on concepts such as happiness and peace of mind can help you distinguish what genuinely matters from what you feel pressured to pursue.
- Encourages long-term thinking: Evaluating immediate and future consequences can prevent impulsive choices.
- Reduces unnecessary distress: Carefully examining the likely consequences of a decision may help reduce anxiety caused by uncertainty.
- Supports rational judgment: Comparing alternatives encourages you to evaluate consequences rather than relying exclusively on immediate emotions.
- Promotes self-awareness: Reflecting on your decisions can help you recognize recurring patterns in how you pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
These are plausible practical benefits of the exercise, rather than established clinical effects of prolepsis specifically.
5. The Philosophical Connection to Epicurus
The technique draws on three important elements of Epicurean philosophy:
- Preconceptions (prolepsis General concepts that help us recognize and understand things, including pleasure and pain.
- The feeling of pleasure and pain: Epicurus treated these feelings as fundamental to evaluating what is desirable and undesirable.
- Practical wisdom (phronesis The capacity to reason carefully about choices and consequences. Epicurus regarded practical wisdom as essential to living pleasantly.
These elements work together. Preconceptions provide conceptual understanding, pleasure and pain supply basic evaluative criteria, and practical wisdom helps determine which course of action is most beneficial.
Importantly, Epicureanism does not recommend maximizing pleasure at every moment. A wise decision considers the quality and consequences of pleasure, recognizing that some pleasures should be avoided and some pains willingly accepted when doing so leads to greater well-being.
Conclusion
The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method is a self-help exercise that encourages individuals to clarify their understanding of happiness, examine the consequences of alternative choices, and make decisions consistent with a flourishing life.
By using prolepsis as a conceptual starting point and practical wisdom as a guide, individuals can approach difficult decisions more deliberately. Rather than asking only, "What do I want right now?", they learn to ask, "Which choice is most likely to contribute to a pleasant, peaceful, and well-lived life?"
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Having re-read Gábor Betegh and Voula Tsouna‘s work: “Concepts in Epicurean and Stoic Philosophy”, I asked my Philo AI persona to discuss how a Friend of Epicurus could apply these ideas around preconceptions (prolēpsis). The AI response included this suggestion.
So then Patrikios would it be correct to say that your question to the AI was to "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making?"
I used ChatGPT with the query: "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of Epicurean preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making".
Here is the result:
QuoteDisplay MoreSelf-Help Technique: Using Epicurean Preconceptions (Prolepsis) for Decision-Making
1. Understanding the Concept
In Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions (prolepsis) are general concepts or mental understandings we develop through experience. They help us recognize and evaluate things such as pleasure, pain, happiness, friendship, and justice.
Epicurus believed that pleasure is the highest good, but this does not mean pursuing every immediate pleasure. Instead, we should use reason to distinguish between pleasures that contribute to lasting well-being and those that lead to greater pain or distress.
By applying prolepsis to everyday decisions, individuals can reflect on their existing understanding of what makes life good and use it as a guide when choosing between alternatives.
2. The Technique: The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method
Purpose: To help individuals make thoughtful decisions by examining their preconceptions about happiness, pleasure, pain, and well-being.
Step 1: Identify the decision.
Clearly state the decision you need to make.
For example:
- Should I accept a promotion that offers a higher salary but requires significantly longer working hours?
Step 2: Identify your relevant preconceptions.
Reflect on your general understanding of what makes life fulfilling. Consider the following questions:
- What does a happy life mean to me?
- What do I understand by pleasure and suffering?
- What role do peace of mind, health, friendship, and financial security play in my well-being?
For example, you may recognize that you associate happiness with financial security, meaningful relationships, sufficient rest, and freedom from unnecessary stress.
These preconceptions provide a starting point for evaluating your decision.
Step 3: Examine the immediate and long-term consequences.
Evaluate each available option according to the pleasure and pain it may produce.
Consider the following example:
Consideration Accepting the promotion Declining the promotion Immediate pleasure Excitement about increased income and recognition Relief from additional responsibilities Potential immediate pain Anxiety about greater demands Disappointment about missing an opportunity Long-term benefits Greater financial security and career development More free time and a better work-life balance Potential long-term costs Less sleep, increased stress, and reduced time with loved ones Slower career advancement and less income The goal is not to eliminate all discomfort. Instead, it is to consider whether a temporary difficulty might produce a worthwhile benefit or whether an immediate pleasure could lead to greater suffering later.
Step 4: Test the decision against your preconceptions.
Compare the consequences of each option with your understanding of a good life.
Ask yourself:
- Does this option support the kind of happiness I consider important?
- Am I pursuing this opportunity because it genuinely improves my life, or because I want social recognition?
- Will the additional income reduce a meaningful source of anxiety?
- Could the additional responsibilities undermine my health or relationships?
For example, if you recognize that peace of mind and close relationships are essential to your happiness, you might question whether the additional salary justifies a substantial loss of personal time.
However, if your current financial situation causes significant distress, the promotion might offer a valuable improvement in your well-being.
The important point is to examine the actual consequences rather than automatically favoring either pleasure or the avoidance of pain.
Step 5: Make a reasoned choice.
Choose the option that best supports your overall well-being after considering its likely consequences.
Suppose you determine that your current salary already provides sufficient financial security, while the promotion would substantially increase your stress and reduce your time with family.
You might decide to decline the promotion and seek opportunities for professional growth that offer a better balance between income and personal well-being.
Alternatively, if the promotion would help you resolve serious financial difficulties and its demands were manageable, accepting it might be the more reasonable choice.
Step 6: Reflect on the outcome.
After making your decision, evaluate its effects.
Ask yourself:
- Did my decision contribute to my well-being?
- Were my expectations about pleasure and pain accurate?
- What have I learned that could help me make better decisions in the future?
This reflection can help you refine your practical judgment and improve future decisions.
It is important to distinguish this reflective exercise from prolepsis itself: in Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions are not simply personal preferences or beliefs that can be freely changed. Rather, they are general concepts that provide a basis for recognizing and understanding things. Reflection and experience help you apply those concepts to particular circumstances.
3. A Practical Worksheet for Daily Use
You can use the following worksheet whenever you face a difficult decision.
The Epicurean Preconception Decision Worksheet
- My decision: What choice do I need to make?
- My understanding of a good life: What do I consider essential to happiness and well-being?
- My relevant preconceptions: What do I understand by pleasure, pain, peace of mind, friendship, health, or security in this situation?
- Option A: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
- Option B: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
- Reasoned evaluation: Which option is more likely to contribute to my overall well-being, considering both its benefits and its costs?
- My decision: Which option will I choose, and why?
- Reflection: What did I learn from the outcome?
You can complete this worksheet in five to ten minutes, although more complicated decisions may require additional research and reflection.
4. Why This Technique May Be Helpful
This technique applies Epicurean ideas to practical decision-making in several ways.
- Clarifies personal priorities: Reflecting on concepts such as happiness and peace of mind can help you distinguish what genuinely matters from what you feel pressured to pursue.
- Encourages long-term thinking: Evaluating immediate and future consequences can prevent impulsive choices.
- Reduces unnecessary distress: Carefully examining the likely consequences of a decision may help reduce anxiety caused by uncertainty.
- Supports rational judgment: Comparing alternatives encourages you to evaluate consequences rather than relying exclusively on immediate emotions.
- Promotes self-awareness: Reflecting on your decisions can help you recognize recurring patterns in how you pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
These are plausible practical benefits of the exercise, rather than established clinical effects of prolepsis specifically.
5. The Philosophical Connection to Epicurus
The technique draws on three important elements of Epicurean philosophy:
- Preconceptions (prolepsis General concepts that help us recognize and understand things, including pleasure and pain.
- The feeling of pleasure and pain: Epicurus treated these feelings as fundamental to evaluating what is desirable and undesirable.
- Practical wisdom (phronesis The capacity to reason carefully about choices and consequences. Epicurus regarded practical wisdom as essential to living pleasantly.
These elements work together. Preconceptions provide conceptual understanding, pleasure and pain supply basic evaluative criteria, and practical wisdom helps determine which course of action is most beneficial.
Importantly, Epicureanism does not recommend maximizing pleasure at every moment. A wise decision considers the quality and consequences of pleasure, recognizing that some pleasures should be avoided and some pains willingly accepted when doing so leads to greater well-being.
Conclusion
The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method is a self-help exercise that encourages individuals to clarify their understanding of happiness, examine the consequences of alternative choices, and make decisions consistent with a flourishing life.
By using prolepsis as a conceptual starting point and practical wisdom as a guide, individuals can approach difficult decisions more deliberately. Rather than asking only, "What do I want right now?", they learn to ask, "Which choice is most likely to contribute to a pleasant, peaceful, and well-lived life?"
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the boxes you referenced above (such as the Tetrapharmakon) remain a superficial replacement for actually studying and learning and caring about what Epicurus had to say.
The Tetrapharmakos gives conclusions but doesn't give the necessary reasoning behind those conclusions. This is a good reason to turn directly to the first four Kuriai Doxi (Principal Doctrines) rather than the Tetrapharmakos.
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"Tranquil withdrawal"... The statement near the end to the effect that no one cares anymore about the core issues that motivated them to develop their philosophy, and the only thing important today is whether to "withdraw" or "engage."
We need to create the correct labels (or phrases) in order to combat the incorrect ones.
Epicureans engaged in "a life of philosophical study" (not tranquil withdrawal).
Instead of "Tetrapharmakos"..."the First Four KD's".
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with the rivers of blood entailed by the French revolution
Likely they should have said "French Renaissance" not revolution.
Regarding "katastematic and kinetic" - even though we've discussed the problems with these labels through-out the forum, these ideas keep coming back and I think it is because the labels function as "containers" for ideas. Until there are better "containers" created, they will remain (in a similar manner as the Tetrapharmakos "container" remains).
The main goal is not to study the reasons for human misery and understand how to live pleasantly. The main goal was to understand the nature of knowledge and the univers, AFTER WHICH you can conclude that pleasure is the guide and goal and reject goals of virtue or piety or reason for their own sakes.
I think it would have been better if they had said something about a goal of "living the best life", and also the article may been refering to all the ancient/hellenistic schools in general (not just Epicureanism). Epicureanism says of pleasure that is it is both the beginning and the end of the best life, yet there is also the importance of virtue being inseparable from the pleasant life, which is something we need to more fully develop here on the forum.
