It's the Epicurean who really understands the virtuous / honorable position on these issues.
Could the word "wise" be used here instead? ...It's the Epicurean who really (or correctly) understands the wise position on these issues.
Posts by Kalosyni
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It's also likely that we will want to discuss the category of desire "natural/unnecessary" which some people like to label as "extravagant".
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Here is the video recommended to watch before Sunday's meeting:
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Coming up this Sunday - November 23rd at 12:30pm ET - Via Zoom...
Epicurean philosophy discussion - co-facilitated by Cassius and Kalosyni...
Discussion Topic: What role does food take in an Epicurean lifestyle?
What are the limits of pleasure with regard to food? What role should food take for the modern Epicurean? (special food on the 20th? ...or a Mediterranean style of eating? ...minimizing sugary and processed foods?). How would you describe your own personal take on the role of food in your life?...Do you have a healthy living role model (or influencer) that you follow and recommend with regard to eating and food choices (doctors/dieticians/famous chefs/bakers)?We recommend people watch Don's presentation on "Bread & Water: Debunking the Myth of Epicurean Asceticism" (link posted below).
Kalosyni will give a short presentation, followed by an opportunity for everyone to participate in the discussion through prompted discussion questions.
Fourth Sunday discussion is open to all forum members who have completed their registration by replying to their welcome thread. If you have not previously attended a Sunday Zoom, please message Cassius or Kalosyni to RSVP to this meeting. The Zoom link will be given out the day before the meeting.
We also look forward to seeing longterm members join in on this more active meeting format.
Hope to see you there!
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Wishing everyone a Happy Twentieth!
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Welcome to the forum Tony Fox
You might like this video overview by Cassius (if you haven't already seen it)...
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I have anticipated you Fortune and I have entrenched myself against all your secret attacks. I have not and will not give myself up as captive to you or to any other circumstance. When it is time for me to go, I will spit contempt upon those who vainly cling to life, and I will leave life crying aloud in glorious triumph that I have lived well.
This is a quote by Metrodorus. I also want to say that the "spitting contempt" part just doesn't make sense from an Epicurean standpoint - at least in my mind. The Epicurean would be too busy either: enjoying a last taste of something pleasurable, or busy remembering an event that was one of the best moments of life.
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Welcome to the forum!
Eventually, however, my interest returned and I began comparing Stoic and Epicurean physics, and I've come to the conclusion that Epicureanism probably better represents what nature is.
Just asking for clarity sake...were you referring to the Epicurean natural physics or referring to Epicurean ethics based on nature/what is natural?
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In the book "Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life" there is the usage of the word "corrosive" for the "unnatural/unnecessary" category of desires. We have likely discussed this before, but it is worth bringing up again.
I would recommend against using the word "corrosive" for several reasons:
1) It gives a situation a kind of static state that sounds difficult to remedy (once something is corroded it is difficult to restore it back to its original nature), where as the truth is that the human mind can shift rather quickly out of the "unnatural/unnecessary" when realizing the truth of something.
2) It sounds overly "dramatic" (envisioning leaking battery acid that corrodes metal). And it attributes an aweful lot of power to desires, making them sound dangerous or "evil" (it almost has a "Christian puritanical" sound to it). But if you dig down to see what is going on then you will see that there are basic needs hiding deep below the surface (below the "unnatural" desire), but it is actually the strategy for meeting those needs isn't the best strategy. (Needs for safety, security, reassurance, or knowledge could be the deeper needs).
3) It doesn't accurately describe the biggest problem for things that are "unnatural" -- the main problem is that they are "empty" of happiness and pleasure (and that they cause more pain than pleasure).
----I think most people here on the forum would understand that "natural" is something that nature gives to animals or occurs naturally for animals. Where as, "unnatural" is something which is only an opinion with no basis in nature. Once we are clear about what these categories are, then we can decide how best to label them.
My own current take on the three categories of desires:
1) natural and necessary for well-being
2) nice to have but optional
3) empty, painful, or leading to unwanted consequences
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Here is an article that takes a different view from the one that I posted above, and which makes good points also:
https://www.npr.org/2025/02/06/nx-s1-5276331/you-have-more-control-over-your-emotions-than-you-think
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Welcome to the forum AUtC
You might like to check out these videos:
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De Rerum Natura, book 2, excerpt:
Will add soon [sunshine, birds-song in forests]
As I was listening to an audio recording of De Rerum Natura last week when sick in bed, this section cheered me up:
De Rerum Natura, Book 2, section 142 (Humphries translation):
When dawn bathes earth with morning light, and birds,
All kinds of them, flying through pathless woods,
Fill all the delicate air with liquid song,
How suddenly at such a time the sun
Clothes everything with light! This we can see,
And so can all men, plain before the eyes.
But the sun's warmth and that calm light come on
Not through an empty void; their course is set
More slowly, as if they parted waves of air
The way a swimmer does. Not one by one
Do the tiny particles of heat proceed,
But rather en masse,...
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Starting this thread for textual excerpts that express upbeat, optimistic, and/or joyful feelings...
Diogenes Laertius, book 10, excerpt:
"Also that in his letters he wrote to Leontion, "O Lord Apollo, my dear little Leontion, with what tumultuous applause we were inspired as we read your letter." Then again to Themista, the wife of Leonteus : "I am quite ready, if you do not come to see me, to spin thrice on my own axis and be propelled to any place that you, including Themista, agree upon" ; and to the beautiful Pythocles he writes : "I will sit down and await thy divine advent, my heart's desire."....It is observed too that in his treatise On the Ethical End he writes in these terms : "I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."
De Rerum Natura, book 2, excerpt:
Will add soon [sunshine, birds-song in forests]
...More to be added soon
Feel free to post any other upbeat, optimistic, and joyful Epicurean text excerpts.
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VS 16: "No one who sees what is bad chooses it willingly; instead he is lured into seeing it as good compared to what is even worse, and thus he is trapped."
Some thoughts on this...
Reasoning further on this to get a bigger picture on this: the calculation with regard to time is needed: short term outcomes, medium term outcomes, and long term outcomes. And also missing is not having properly reasoned through all possible outcomes and the likelihood of those outcomes coming to pass.
Also, this is true if one is willing to gamble that something unwanted won't happen as a consequence...but then over time not knowing if bad consequences will result is greatly disturbing/troubling and also tends to snowball into even more gambling with one's future.
A simple example: choosing to lie instead of telling the truth, and then forever having to lie to cover up the first lie...ends up being exhausting and then eventually either the truth is found out or the person forgets to keep lying to cover up their first lie...which results in further problems (others no longer trust that person)...etc.
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the Epicureans are the one who doesn´t accept Pain and try to avoid it.
Epicureans say Stoics doesn´t accept or want avoid (Painful/harmful) Emotions.Epicureans seek pleasure, but at times they endure pain when it prevents a greater pain or leads to the pleasures that come with necessary things like food/shelter/health of the body and happiness of the soul -- This can be found in the Letter to Menoeceus.
I'm guessing that Stoics think that they need to be indifferent toward pleasures because they don't believe that there are certain pleasures which are easy to get, and also they don't trust that pleasure can lead to good results. And it seems that they may see pleasures as a distraction from being perfectly courageous (etc.) and a distraction from having the appearances in front of others of being virtuous. (Stoics want esteem in the eyes of others, but this won't necessarily lead to a happy life).
Emotions are a motivator for desiring, but if someone doesn't know how to prudently pursue pleasure, then they may think that they need to avoid feeling desire (and any emotions that lead to desire).
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Here is a modern psychology article that is a must-read for anyone interested in the role of feelings and emotions in well-being:
The Key Skill We Rarely Learn: How to Feel Your FeelingsI feel my feelings! Probably not. But with courage and practice, we can cultivate the skill to deeply connect to ourselves and our values, opening up a world…www.psychologytoday.com -
I just verified with Cassius that the First Monday Meet and Greet Zoom for tonight is officially canceled. We hold the meeting on an as-needed basis for new members. We will set up another as soon as we have the need, so anyone with interest or questions regarding attendance please message Cassius or myself.
*****
(btw...I am feeling mostly better today, but not quite 100 percent yet).
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When I understood Philodemus right, I think the Epicurean view would only match with the Stoic view when the Emotion
1) has harmful consequences ( pleasure then is not choiceworthy for example )
2) is irrational, based on empty believe
3) is based on unnecessary desireIn short when the Emotions lead to more pain than pleasure.
Thank you Matteng for pointing this out.
Perhaps there is a way to fine-tune the differences, however, and especially because both feelings and emotions are important for making sense of the world, and so we need them as valid input for making good choices. Feelings and emotions have important input and shouldn't just be brushed aside in a "stoic" fashion. If something is actually "irrational" you would want to take the time to fully understand why, and that means you need to be able to tolerate the discomfort of seeing and understanding the big picture.
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