Posts by Kalosyni

I have not fully read the article above, but wanted to comment regarding any idea that Epicurean philosophy would be a better option for an individual interested in Christianity -- I think that anyone who is moving toward Christianity hasn't fully dealt with certain existential questions, and that they have certain psychological desires that they want to see fulfilled. The foremost desire would be for "immortality" since within Christian belief the soul does not die. Asking anyone with that desire to consider Epicureanism would not go over well. A given person in this situation won't accept something that they aren't wanting or ready to hear.

Unfortunately modernity and the larger system what we now exist within, directly or indirectly reinforces the idea of an immortal soul. Maybe the "desire for immortality" is a chicken-and-egg thing, that feeds back into itself - present in religion and present in masses and the mythos of civilization itself.

Welcome to the forum Aeneadum

The greatest motivation for quiting addictions is realizing that the pain outweighs the pleasure. Also, the strong desire to feel healthy again, and the strong desire to do what is necessary to maintain long-term health and put effort into that which enables one to enjoy a long life of health.

There is a thread (maybe more than one) regarding 12-step and Epicureanism. I'll see if I can track it down and post the link when I find it.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

And the best way to do that is through regular teamwork with people who already agree

Maybe we need an Epicurean "Death Cafe"?

https://deathcafe.com/what/

Except an "Epicurean death discussion" would end up being different than the objectives of a Death Cafe, because we would be exploring why "death is nothing to us".

According to the Death Cafe website, theirs is very open-ended:

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A Death Cafe is a group directed discussion of death with no agenda, objectives or themes. It is a discussion group rather than a grief support or counselling session.

Quote from Cassius

And the best way to do that is through regular teamwork with people who already agree

Maybe we need an Epicurean "Death Cafe"?

Quote from DaveT

Therefore since biologically the brain is constantly trying to predict what will happen next (for my continued existence), it has a problem seeing the world after death. He speculates that this is why an afterlife of some type is an element of almost every religious beliefs system.

And the internal experience of being alive is as if we "feel" immortal (and yet we are not).

Also, it is much more appealing to think that there is something good coming (such as heaven) rather than nothingness.

But just because we "feel" immortal doesn't actually make us immortal. And just because we can imagine a heavenly place after death, doesn't make it so.

I think that the Epicurean needs to spend time contemplating the truth of the cessation of the senses and the mind. And, also needs to focus intently on living life to the fullest by making good and joyful choices - and in a way "make heaven on earth".

We can see the Epicurean understanding of the gods in Principal Doctrine 01, the Letter to Menoeceus, and in Lucretius. And perhaps Epicurus was influenced by Xenophanes ideas (which alos came down through Plato/Aristotle, but Epicurus forms different conclusions). I'm thinking that buy studying this we can come to a greater understanding of PD01. Do we already have threads on this elsewhere? Bryan ?

The following is a quote from Stanford.edu website:

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...we may infer from the concluding call to pay due honor to the gods in Xenophanes’ B1 that an attribution of scandalous conduct would be incompatible with the goodness or perfection any divine being must be assumed to possess (cf. Aristotle Meta. 1072b; Plato, Rep. 379b.)

In the well-known fragments B14–16, Xenophanes comments on the general tendency of human beings to conceive of divine beings in human form:

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But mortals suppose that gods are born,
wear their own clothers and have a voice and body. (B14)

Ethiopians say that their gods are snub-nosed and black;
Thracians that theirs are are blue-eyed and red-haired. (B16)

B15 adds, probably in a satirical vein, that if horses and oxen had hands and could draw pictures, their gods would look remarkably like horses and oxen.

Source:

Xenophanes (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Welcome to the forum LAMAR__44 ...here are my thoughts to give some correction and guidance:

Quote from LAMAR__44

pleasure is the sole good, and pain is the sole evil, everything else that we should pursue has the characteristic of being instrumental towards pleasure, and everything we avoid has the characteristic of being instrumental towards pain. This helps significantly in judging what is worthy of pursuit and what isn’t.

I think that your wording here makes for an incorrect understanding and application -- the meaning of the word "sole" = only. This sets you up for a big problem, because sometimes we do what is needed for good health and for long-term happiness. If you think with the word "sole" the error could be that your pleasure has to be sensory oriented or somehow a big pleasure. And it is important to understand that anything that we do that doesn't contain painful sensations is also labeled "a pleasure". We also see in the letter to Menoeceus: "And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided."

Quote from LAMAR__44

it’s hard for me to think of this with relationships. I think it makes sense to evaluate before starting a friendship or romantic relationship whether there will be net pleasure or pain, but doing this inside of relationships seems to make them feel shallow and transactional, at least for me.

Your error here is in thinking too abstractly (net pleasure vs net pain). I think most people wouldn't tolerate a friend who seems to criticize all the time or who is impatient or unkind - we all know how to instinctively avoid these people. Even if the person is a family member (sibling, etc) then we make sure to keep our distance (for self-protection). So as soon as we sense that a potential friend has those characteristics, we should have no qualms in steering clear of making friends with a person like this.

Quote from LAMAR__44

I must say that there is no intrinsic value in my relationships with my loved ones, they only have value in so that they’re instrumental to my pleasure, but in doing this, I lower my experience of pleasure within these relationships. But that would result in less net pleasure then if I decided to disbelieve in hedonism, so to live according to hedonism, I need to disbelieve in hedonism.

First, regarding your cognition of "pleasure" in relationships -- if you think too abstractly then perhaps that is why you may be for some reason not feeling enjoyment. Joy is a feeling, and it has concrete and specific causes. All relationships are about about a type of "inter-dependence"...meaning that we "inter-are" and we experience things based on what all the people in the relationship do. Pleasure not only comes from what my loved ones do, but pleasure also comes when I give pleasure to my loved ones.

You don't choose your family, but you choose your friends -- so potentially your friends will be bringing more love and acceptance into your connection and interactions (for example, since in friendships there won't be any conscious or unconscious sibling rivalry that could occur in family relationships).

Regarding your idea of "no intrinsic value except through being instrumental for pleasure" -- there is an error of thinking here also -- because you are again stuck in a concept and have forgotten your heart. The sense of our heart contains the emotions and feelings together with breath of the body and the feelings of aliveness. All of this is the reason why it says in the Principal Doctrines: PD27. "Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship."

Here is an interesting Q & A, but looks like the main article is behind a paywall.

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Tell us a bit about your article.

My article explores Frances Wright’s defense of Epicurus in her A Few Days in Athens (1822). Epicurus was an ancient Athenian philosopher and a materialist, who argued for the senses and pleasure as the best gauges of virtue. Controversially, he also welcomed women as well as enslaved people to his school. Through her work on Epicurus, Frances Wright developed her own understanding of the relationship between pleasure and virtue, and this served as the basis for her feminist philosophy.

Despite its popularly in the nineteenth century, A Few Days in Athens has been hard to place in feminist philosophy and history. It’s generically uncertain; in places, it reads like a philosophical dialogue, but it also borrows tropes from the novel. In addition, pleasure remains difficult to discuss within feminism because of its association with sex and the body. My article grapples with Wright’s attempt to make pleasure central to living a virtuous life.

You can read the full Q & A here:

Q&A with JoEllen DeLucia: 'Frances Wright’s A Few Days in Athens' - Edinburgh University Press Blog

Frances Wright redefines feminist philosophy through Epicurus's ideals of pleasure and virtue in her 1822 novel.

euppublishingblog.com

This very short video may be relevant:

Here's a fun and short travel video in Greece (and they have done other places in the world too).

Eikadistes Thank you for your work on the Philodemus text! I see over at your link (the Twentiers website), there is this symbol used in the text:

[...]

...which is used when parts of the text are missing. Does the source text give any indication of how many words or lines are missing at each of these points?

And in general regarding Philodemus texts, are there differences of whether this is addressed or not, to be found depending on the text or the source?

Don  Bryan

This very good article talks about "The 'Busy' Trap", written back in 2012, and perhaps relevant for some people still today. And this article helps shed some light on VS14, bringing a modern twist.

Happiness causes, which (according to the above article) are unique to each person, meaning that the specifics and the quantities are variable and different for each person - there is no "one-size-fits-all" prescription for happiness. And this also shines the light on how some people can be happy even when they do not have certain externals, because they have figured out how to compensate from other areas of their lives (either other externals or through internals).

External Causes of Happiness:

Having sufficient necessities, such as enough food to eat, adequate housing, and safety, etc.

Having good health

Having good friendships

Having good family and spousal relationships

Enjoyment of common pleasures: tasty foods, enjoyable scenery or living environments, enjoyable music and art, etc.

Enjoyment of intellectual pursuits or hobbies

Internal Causes of Happiness:

Good attitudes

Good feelings

Good thoughts

Good moods

*****

I think that Epicurean philosophy would say that happiness comes from a combination of both External and Internal causes.

I just found this interesting study:

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Does happiness come from within, or is it shaped by external influences such as our jobs, health, relationships and material circumstances? A new study published in Nature Human Behaviour shows that happiness can come from either within or from external influences, from both, or neither — and which is true differs across people.

The Secret to Happiness Lies Within You, Or Society — Or Both

What is the secret to happiness? Does happiness come from within, or is it shaped by external influences such as our jobs, health, relationships and material…

www.ucdavis.edu

Happy Twentieth Everyone!

and

Happy Vernal Equinox!

These two Wikipedia entries seems relevant for this section of Lucretius:

Causal reasoning - Wikipedia

Inference - Wikipedia

Robert You made an interesting comment in last Sunday's meeting regarding inference, and if I recall it was something about the correct way or the steps for inference (though I don't remember if you went further saying what the steps were).

Also, thinking that we may want to see what Philodemus has to say about inference.

Here is a list of areas to reflect upon, for those who feel a need to increase happiness. This list can help guide your reflections, enabling you to identify specific areas that may be causing issues or need adjustment, and you can take your time with each aspect to gain deeper insights into your life.

Personal Well-Being

• Emotional Health: Assess feelings like happiness, anxiety, and sadness.
• Physical Health: Evaluate fitness levels, diet, and medical conditions.
• Mental Health: Consider stress levels, coping mechanisms, and mental clarity.

Relationships

• Family: Evaluate the quality of relationships with family members.
• Friendships: Reflect on the supportiveness and fulfillment of friendships.
• Romantic Relationships: Consider communication, intimacy, and satisfaction.

Career and Education

• Job Satisfaction: Analyze your fulfillment and engagement at work.
• Career Growth: Reflect on opportunities for advancement and professional development.
• Skills and Education: Evaluate whether your skills align with your career goals.

Financial Health

• Income: Assess whether your earnings meet your needs and desires.
• Spending Habits: Reflect on how you manage your expenses and savings.
• Debt Management: Consider the impact of any debts on your financial well-being.

Personal Development

• Hobbies and Interests: Reflect on whether you engage in activities that bring joy.
• Goals and Aspirations: Evaluate your short-term and long-term objectives.
• Skill Development: Consider opportunities to learn new skills or pursue interests.

Work-Life Balance

• Time Management: Assess how well you balance work, leisure, and responsibilities.
• Self-Care Practices: Reflect on the frequency and quality of self-care activities.
• Boundaries: Consider whether you maintain healthy boundaries in personal and professional environments.

Environment and Lifestyle

• Living Situation: Reflect on your home life and its impact on your well-being.
• Living Conditions: Evaluate noise, safety, and overall comfort in your environment.
• Social Environment: Consider the influence of your community and social circles.

Spiritual Life

• Beliefs and Values: Reflect on your core beliefs and whether your life aligns with them.
• Spiritual Practices: Consider whether you engage in activities that nourish your spirit, like meditation, art classes, etc.

Contribution and Impact

• Community Involvement: Reflect on your engagement with community services or volunteer work, as one possible method of creating connection with new people
• Legacy and Impact: Assess what kind of impact you wish to have on others and the world, and consider if you have skills that you can teach to others in your community.

Quote from DaveT

I see evidence that Epicurean teachings are far more widespread than many think it to be. Epicurus' name is not attached to the actions and beliefs of people, especially in western, educated, Industrialized, rich, democracies (WEIRD). Just listen to any marketing of medical providers and pharmaceuticals, and you hear reduction of pain and suffering as a goal that can be achieved.

Quote from DaveT

I see Epicurean beliefs as unstoppable.

I think that the term "Epicurean" can't be applied to someone who only has one single concept that they follow which might be considered "Epicurean". Epicureanism is a collection of specific concepts that guide one's outlook and choices.

This illustrates an on-going problem with speaking about "Epicureanism" -- how it is understood, what does it represent, what is "Epicureanism" and what isn't "Epicureanism" and who do we consider as "being Epicurean" - these questions will be answered differently depending on whom you ask. And the only way to begin to deal with this is to start labeling all of the common varying interpretations.

Here is an example: You could call something "Torquatian Epicureanism" or "Herodotian Epicureanism" or "PD08 Epicureanism" or "PD26 Epicureanism" etc, etc, (minimalists, maximalists, etc.)...depending on how things are interpreted.

Also, of importance is a list of "Epicurean beliefs", which would be within various outlines of Epicurean philosophy.

Regarding a lack of followers, as well as eclecticism...we are really just getting started with unpacking the system presented by Epicurus, based on the extant remains. And, a big challenge is updating the philosophy to make it compatible for modern thinkers (and science). There are many aspects of Epicurean philosophy that are greatly needed in our modern times. Religion has caused numerous problems for the world, and may end up causing the downfall of civilization, because of its harmful aspects -- mainly the refusal to see how making contracts for peace between countries is the only avenue of peace (but since they all are looking forward to something better in heaven then they give up on "Project Earth"). Also, the idea that God causes tests/trials of suffering so that people can "grow" (found in both Christianity and Islam) - this is harmful because it justifies causing suffering to others, since God himself causes suffering. The problem though, is that there is something about civilization that is struggling to "get past God". So Epicurean philosophy which holds that gods/God is not interactive with the world or listening to prayers may appeal to some, but not appeal to others.

And about eclecticism, I think it would be good to take a look at what people feel is missing in Epicureanism, and what they are looking for when seeking out "eclecticism" - in other words...Making a list of what of modern concerns (both psychological and philosophical) does Epicureanism cover, and what does it not cover.

Here are some areas to compare and contrast, and perhaps if we place them in a table of comparison it would become more clear:

-----Ancient Skepticism vs modern notion of skepticism, vs aspects of "skepticism" in modern science vs Epicurean canonics, AND for each one what level of "feeling" of "knowing truth".

Is it possible that there were differing takes on the sense of knowing (and level of belief vs faith) within various groups of Epicureans (just like there were likely differing takes on mental vs physical pleasures)...it wouldn't be right to assume that all ancient Epicureans were "cookie cutter" exactly the same (thinking/believing exactly the same), because human beings are complex, and you can see now (in our modern studies) how we have the "minimalist" Epicureans and the "maximalist" Epicureans - so perhaps there was also some differences between levels of dogmatism (plus also levels of belief in the gods).