Posts by Kalosyni

Welcome to the forum! RoseQuartzAxolotl

In a recent Zoom meeting we presented this question for discussion:

"Do you think that the study of modern psychology should play a role in the lives of those who study Epicurean philosophy? Why or why not?" ...I would reframe and give more detail: "Should someone who studies Epicurean philosophy also include the study of modern psychology and implement evidence based "self-help" and positive psychology"?

Anyone with thoughts on this?

I will soon post more, but in the meantime please add your thoughts, thanks!

Welcome to the forum! Griffin

Don Regarding the formating of the Principal Doctrines, I just looked that up and found this (AI Google):

Modern translators and classical scholars determine where one doctrine ends and the next begins by evaluating four primary lines of evidence: grammatical shifts, thematic unity, historical manuscript markers, and 19th-century precedent. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Because ancient Greek text lacked clear punctuation and numbering, separating the continuous script into 40 distinct Kyriai Doxai relies on specific linguistic and contextual clues: [1, 2, 3]

1. Grammatical Transitions and Connecting Particles

Ancient Greek relies heavily on transitional particles to indicate a shift in thought. Translators watch for specific word cues that naturally reset a sentence: [1]

• The Particle De (δὲ): Often meaning "but" or "and," this frequently signals the start of a fresh, separate statement.
• The Particle Gar (γάρ): Meaning "for" or "because," this indicates a clause is an explanation of the previous sentence, meaning it belongs within the same doctrine rather than starting a new one.
• Independent Clauses: Sentences that begin with a strong, self-contained subject and verb (such as "Death is..." or "Justice is...") usually mark the boundaries of a new maxim. [1, 2, 3, 4]

2. Micro-Spaces and Scribal Punctuation

While the manuscripts do not contain numbers, medieval scribes did leave subtle visual hints while copying the text: [1, 2]

• Paragraphoi: Scribes frequently drew small horizontal strokes or dashes (paragraphoi) in the margins to note a change in speaker or statement.
• High Dots (Ektheis): Scribes used ink dots placed high above the text baseline like a modern period to signal a complete thought.
• Spacial Gaps: In manuscripts like the Codex Borbonicus, a tiny physical gap or blank ink space was left between certain words to indicate where one logical unit of text ended. [1, 2]

3. Structural and Thematic Shifts

Translators look at the internal logic of the philosophy to find natural conceptual boundaries: [1, 2]

• Thematic Clusters: Epicurus often grouped ideas together. Doctrines 1 through 4 handle divine fear, death, pleasure, and pain (the Tetrapharmakos). A translator knows a doctrine has ended when the text shifts completely from one of these core topics to an entirely new one, like social status (Doctrine 6) or natural science (Doctrine 11).
• Aphoristic Length: The Kyriai Doxai were specifically designed as short, punchy summaries meant to be easily memorized by followers. If a block of text grows too dense or covers multiple unrelated insights, it is a strong indicator that it contains more than one individual doctrine. [1, 2, 3, 4]

PD25. "If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles."

Here is my interpretation:

If on each occassion, instead of referring your actions to the natural pursuit of a life of happiness (as guided by pleasure and pain) if you turn too quickly to a simplistic standard such as skepticism (suspension of Judgment (Epoché)), when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with achieving the best life.

Cassius   wbernys   Don   Godfrey

and Bryan

Quote from Kalosyni

At the end of the Letter to Menoeceus we see:

"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being."

For me, it seems clear in my imagination that the gods are living in a state of joy.

There is lots of good discussion happening here. But I wanted to re-state what and why I titled this thread as: "Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia" but "Joy as the goal". Perhaps it would have been more clear if I had said "eudiamonia" instead of joy.

My primary intention is for us to get out of our heads the common mantra put forward by the internet search engines (and by many philosophy scholars) that the end-all, be-all goal of Epicureanism is ataraxia. It's like this: Let's say you have a goal of having an omlet for breakfast. But then you state: "My goal is eggs". And you ignore that there is something much bigger (the omlet) which contains cheese and all the veggies, plus milk (and butter and the use of a hot frying pan) that go into the omlet and the making of the omlet.

Don I am grateful to read your your very good and helpful input on this thread.

Matteng and wbernys I think it is important to consider that the teachings of Epicurus are not presented in a linear fashion - and you need to look at the whole picture.

We see in PD27, it says: "Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship."

This PD brings in the idea of "the blessedness of the complete life".

The primary ancient Greek word for the blessedness of a complete (fortunate) life is makarios (μακάριος), often used to describe the enviable state of the gods or the self-sustained blessedness of a life where all needs are met. Another crucial term for the enduring, flourishing "good life" is eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία), representing lasting happiness and prosperity.

• "Blessedness" - Makarios (μακάριος): Refers to a state of supreme happiness, often signifying being blessed or fortunate, particularly used to describe divine existence or the secure, self-sustained state of the wealthy. It implies a total satisfaction where all needs are met and secured, frequently translated as "blessed" or "happy".
• Eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία): Translates to "happiness," "flourishing," or "living well." It is often considered the pinnacle of human life, as a life of complete well-being rather than just a fleeting emotion.

At the end of the Letter to Menoeceus we see:

"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being."

For me, it seems clear in my imagination that the gods are living in a state of joy.

In my research today, I just found this first chapter on the Letter to Menoeceus, from a new book just published February 2026, by Solmeng-Jonas Hirschi. (Written as a scholarly/academic examination).

It looks like it will have special interest for those who are studying ancient Greek language. Bryan  Don  Eikadistes

https://academic.oup.com/book/62294/chapter/552412171

This gives you 40 seconds of the opening of the Letter to Menoeceus:

the Letter to Menoeceus • Epicurus • spoken AncientGreek.eu

Quote from Cassius

It certainly illustrates something but i am not sure exactly what!

It shows how the gods have lots to see and do in their blessed and immortal realm.

...and this one:

I just found this video, and I think it illustrates the Epicurean philosophical idea that the gods are blessed and immortal. PD01 "The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak." (See also Letter to Menoeceus, section 123)

Happy Belated Birthday Pacatus

Happy Birthday! Patrikios

Happy Twentieth Everyone!

I have not fully read the article above, but wanted to comment regarding any idea that Epicurean philosophy would be a better option for an individual interested in Christianity -- I think that anyone who is moving toward Christianity hasn't fully dealt with certain existential questions, and that they have certain psychological desires that they want to see fulfilled. The foremost desire would be for "immortality" since within Christian belief the soul does not die. Asking anyone with that desire to consider Epicureanism would not go over well. A given person in this situation won't accept something that they aren't wanting or ready to hear.

Unfortunately modernity and the larger system what we now exist within, directly or indirectly reinforces the idea of an immortal soul. Maybe the "desire for immortality" is a chicken-and-egg thing, that feeds back into itself - present in religion and present in masses and the mythos of civilization itself.

Welcome to the forum Aeneadum

The greatest motivation for quiting addictions is realizing that the pain outweighs the pleasure. Also, the strong desire to feel healthy again, and the strong desire to do what is necessary to maintain long-term health and put effort into that which enables one to enjoy a long life of health.

There is a thread (maybe more than one) regarding 12-step and Epicureanism. I'll see if I can track it down and post the link when I find it.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

And the best way to do that is through regular teamwork with people who already agree

Maybe we need an Epicurean "Death Cafe"?

https://deathcafe.com/what/

Except an "Epicurean death discussion" would end up being different than the objectives of a Death Cafe, because we would be exploring why "death is nothing to us".

According to the Death Cafe website, theirs is very open-ended:

Quote

A Death Cafe is a group directed discussion of death with no agenda, objectives or themes. It is a discussion group rather than a grief support or counselling session.

Quote from Cassius

And the best way to do that is through regular teamwork with people who already agree

Maybe we need an Epicurean "Death Cafe"?

Quote from DaveT

Therefore since biologically the brain is constantly trying to predict what will happen next (for my continued existence), it has a problem seeing the world after death. He speculates that this is why an afterlife of some type is an element of almost every religious beliefs system.

And the internal experience of being alive is as if we "feel" immortal (and yet we are not).

Also, it is much more appealing to think that there is something good coming (such as heaven) rather than nothingness.

But just because we "feel" immortal doesn't actually make us immortal. And just because we can imagine a heavenly place after death, doesn't make it so.

I think that the Epicurean needs to spend time contemplating the truth of the cessation of the senses and the mind. And, also needs to focus intently on living life to the fullest by making good and joyful choices - and in a way "make heaven on earth".

We can see the Epicurean understanding of the gods in Principal Doctrine 01, the Letter to Menoeceus, and in Lucretius. And perhaps Epicurus was influenced by Xenophanes ideas (which alos came down through Plato/Aristotle, but Epicurus forms different conclusions). I'm thinking that buy studying this we can come to a greater understanding of PD01. Do we already have threads on this elsewhere? Bryan ?

The following is a quote from Stanford.edu website:

Quote

...we may infer from the concluding call to pay due honor to the gods in Xenophanes’ B1 that an attribution of scandalous conduct would be incompatible with the goodness or perfection any divine being must be assumed to possess (cf. Aristotle Meta. 1072b; Plato, Rep. 379b.)

In the well-known fragments B14–16, Xenophanes comments on the general tendency of human beings to conceive of divine beings in human form:

Quote

But mortals suppose that gods are born,
wear their own clothers and have a voice and body. (B14)

Ethiopians say that their gods are snub-nosed and black;
Thracians that theirs are are blue-eyed and red-haired. (B16)

B15 adds, probably in a satirical vein, that if horses and oxen had hands and could draw pictures, their gods would look remarkably like horses and oxen.

Source:

Xenophanes (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)