Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Titus

I'd rather prioritize simple structures within my life, being deeply intertwined with everything and everybody I am connected to. ... ...

... ... ...

... a key problem of modern societies is externalization. The world is a big place. We rely on too many factors, instead of living according to simple principles . I know that not everything in life can be made simple, but we can try to do so. With every little step we get more control and effectively will feel more in control, which is what in the end reduces stress and anxiety.

Titus I hear you regarding the unnecessary stress of modern life.

Some further thoughts coming up, and also in general for anyone else reading this:

The word "simple" often comes up in discussion of Epicurean ethics, and I just want to say that I think that this is a very subjective word which will look different for everyone. My "simple" will look different than your "simple".

Simplicity at times might not lead to long term happiness. And it may only be coincidence that something we do is labeled as simplicity, and that label we might attach to things after the fact of choosing something. Because we are choosing for the sake of more pleasure (or for removal of pain which opens up space for more pleasure).

For myself, I don't think that there is anything "simple" about my choosing to drink water with dinner instead of wine, but other people might be judging it as such. I drink water because it pleases me most.

As for lifestyles and stress/anxiety, a word of caution regarding the idea of "gaining control"...first of all this can be a slippery-slope and turn into an obsession of "removal of all pain", but we are humans not gods, so there will still be pain entering in our lives at some point, and we can't control everything.

Yet, here is my advice for people who feel troubled by a lot of stress in modern life: if you can, figure out how to move to a smaller city or better yet a very rural location. Of course making a living is important, but perhaps changing to a type of work which you can do remotely via internet (although now with AI coming those jobs may be diminishing).

Quote from wbernys

My general understanding is as follows: Desires necessary for Happiness are those which allow us to have confidence about the future, and allow us to have confidence we can live well throughout the greatest part of our life.

With this in mind some desires i think can be thought to be necessary for Happiness are as follows.

Let's start with one generally everyone agrees on, that of Friendship

Friendship.

As the Principle Doctrines tell us.

27. Of all the means which are procured by wisdom to ensure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.

28. The same conviction which inspires confidence that nothing we have to fear is eternal or even of long duration, also enables us to see that even in our limited conditions of life nothing enhances our security so much as friendship.

Here Friendship, generally agreed by everyone to be among the desires necessary for happiness is thought to be necessary because it allows unparalleled security throughout our life, and ensures happiness throughout the whole of our life.

All of our friends give us the greatest security as the Principle Doctrines above tell us, and it's really the confidence that they will help us as opposed to their actual assistance as VS34 tells us "We do not so much need the help of our friends as the confidence of their help in need.

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Must add: Good friends are also conducive toward "good spirits", and this would be a common sense way of understanding the desires that lead to happiness. It is from pleasure we begin, and to pleasure which we arrive.

Thanks kochiekoch, you're added to the link conversation, see you tonight!

I've sent out the Zoom link by private conversation for the Monday Aug. 3rd, 8pm ET Zoom, so look for that in your "conversations" section of the forum. Any others wishing to join, go ahead and RSVP by posting here in this thread (or messaging Cassius), to receive the link.

Thank you Aristos ...we'll be sending out the link the day before the meeting.

Quote from wbernys

a virtue called "φιλοποητικῶς" which is translated as "in a way that makes friends" or "makes friends" or "makes and keeps friends" by various translators I've seen.

Here is something from a modern practical perspective, a very good YouTube video by a psychologist who gives very good advice, with regard to interacting with strangers, and which over time can lead to friendships in community, clubs etc.

Posting this here in this thread since it is about meeting and interacting with strangers:

Here is another good one, on social curiosity and asking questions:

I just found this Youtube video on building communication skills, and he's got some interesting tips on moving from surface level to one layer deeper when endeavoring to make new friendships:

This may be a cause for marriage difficulties, and yet the article also suggests that over time people can work to improve their attachment styles:

Article from Yahoo Life: WashingtonPost:

• Scientists say this is the reason some relationships flourish and others flop.

Quote

• Securely attached people generally trust others and feel comfortable with both intimacy and independence.
• Those with an anxious attachment style often crave closeness but worry about rejection or abandonment.
• Avoidant individuals tend to prize self-reliance and keep an emotional distance, even from those they love.
• And people with a disorganized attachment style may swing between seeking connection and pushing it away, reflecting conflicting expectations about whether relationships are a source of comfort or danger.

And here is an older study (on Pubmed), and the only one study that I currently found online, about shifts in attachment styles:

• Changes in adult attachment styles in American college students over time: a meta-analysis.

If new research was done now perhaps there might even be greater shifts in attachment styles, since Covid-induced patterns of isolation. And I would guess that the more "avoidant" and "disorganized" attachment styles are less likely to marry. But this is just a guess.

Thanks TauPhi, and Patrikios has also RSVP'ed...And a new Level 1 member has also RSVP'ed! ...all for Monday.

Quote from Don

*My statement here assumes anyone would even notice if I was quiet or not.

I noticed...glad you are back posting.

Quote from Don

The living, sentient, sensing being ONLY feels pleasure OR pain. The dead feel neither. Pleasure comes in various varieties/flavors/experiences but is always pleasure. That terse quotation from Epicurus (which I continue to feel is genuine given the various references/citations Diogenes Laertius give it) is simply referring to the various experiences of pleasure by living, breathing people. AND he firmly plants his flag that THAT IS the goal by which we steer our ships. Pleasure, in all its multifarious manifestations, IS the North Star. And, no, he says, we can't exclude pleasant smells, pleasant sights, pleasant tastes, pleasant motions, any more than we can exclude contemplation of a healthy, fortunate state. It's all pleasure. For anyone to parse one pleasure above others, if it brings no pain, is a fool's errand...

Cassius as you wrote in post 24 above, I've now tried to briefly summarize this, and we may need to make this even more prominent...

Here is a possible wording, and which you may need to edit this:

The EpicureanFriends forum policy is intended to make sure that the clarity of the objective (the Epicurean summum bonum) as being pleasure, is not lost by substituting something else as the "supreme good."

Epicurus embraced all varieties of pleasure (active, resting, etc.) as part of a happy life. When we understand that "a life of happiness is a life of pleasure" we don't allow that to be qualified or modified to say "a life of happiness is a life of minimalist pleasures"; or "a life of happiness is a life of tranquility"; or "a life of happiness is a life of ataraxia"; or any other formulation that implies that some concept other than pleasure is actually the supreme good. Any post asserting a "minimalist" stance toward pleasure falls outside of this forum's understanding of Classical Epicurean Philosophy.

Oh...and I clicked on the link for the book and see that the cover has a little hermit crab on it... that's a "bad omen"!

Thanks, Don ...at first glance it looks intriguing, though it's a fairly vague general description. Perhaps it is written for middle age folks who really do "have it all" but for some reason still feel unhappy. We have VS68 which touches on the idea of "enough" ---> "Nothing is enough to one for whom enough is very little."

Yet, for younger folks, the book author's statement: "We already have what we need in order to be happy" is not going to be a helpful thing to hear for those who actually do need to put in more effort into getting their lives in order (gaining work experience, building financal sufficiency, building friendships, dating if they wish to find a partner and start a family.)

But basically I just wanted to speak up to say that the idea of just accepting your life "as it is" is not Epicurean.

Epicureanism is about understanding that we all need to make wise choices in life -- and take action when needed -- and as VS41 says: "One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy."

Hi Everyone! We are now offering two new Zoom opportunities for new members (both Level 1 & Level 2) to come join us for a "meet-and-greet"! This also provides time for asking questions about the forum and Epicurean philosophy.

Level 3 established members are encouraged to please join us as well!

• Monday, August 3rd at 8pm ET
• Sunday, August 9th at 12:30pm ET - a good time especially for our members who live in the European time zone!

These Zoom meetings are open to registered members of the forum and new members who have fully completed their registration process.

Inviting Level 1 members: Morgan  Aeneadum  Aristos  Carlos  Stas  randres61  WilliamJ  Tgonzalez3790

Inviting Level 2 members: EdGenX  Randall Moose  Autoataraxic  ScottW  Noah Calderon  warjuning

...and anyone else that I may have missed mentioning. Even if you've been a Level 1 or Level 2 for quite some time, please don't be shy, we'd love to meet you!

To attend:

• All Level 2 and Level 3 members please RSVP here in this thread.
• Level 1 members please RSVP by messaging Cassius.

Agenda:

• Welcome by Cassius and individual introductions - please be prepared to introduce yourself to everyone.
• A short presentation may be given either by Cassius, or by Kalosyni (depending on the number of people attending this may or may not be included in the meeting).
• Open time for asking questions about the forum or Epicurean philosophy (or further discussion on the presentation topic).

We make our Zooms informal and easy-going, so you can enjoying coming out to meet your fellow forum members who are moving forward in the study of the philosophy of Epicurus!

Thoughts today after picking up a fallen pear...prolepsis--->Letter to Herodotus--->the infinite universe...

Here are some modern cosmologists and theoretical physicists who think that the universe is spatially infinite (models of cosmic inflation that point to an infinite or eternally growing multiverse).

Andrei Linde - https://profiles.stanford.edu/andrei-linde

Quote

"For a long time, scientists believed that our universe was born in the big bang, as an expanding ball of fire. This scenario dramatically changed during the last 35 years. Now we think that initially the universe was rapidly inflating, being in an unstable energetic vacuum-like state. It became hot only later, when this vacuum-like state decayed. Quantum fluctuations produced during inflation are responsible for galaxy formation. In some places, these quantum fluctuations are so large that they can produce new rapidly expanding parts of the universe. This process makes the universe immortal and transforms it into a multiverse, a huge fractal consisting of many exponentially large parts with different laws of low-energy physics operating in each of them."

Alan Guth - https://www.scientificamerican.com/custom-media/b…next-big-ideas/

Quote

"The idea is that the universe is actually eternal. It existed at all times, so there is no beginning to explain. The laws of physics themselves don’t seem to make any significant distinction between the future and the past. As the universe evolves, its entropy, or disorder, will grow. What we call the future is simply the direction of higher entropy; a state of lower entropy is what we call the past. But a curious thing happens if you take this initial low entropy state and follow it backwards in time, towards what we previously called the past: the entropy will also start to grow in that direction. I think that the people living [along that arrow of time] would not feel anything different from what we feel. Everybody will think that they’re living from the past towards the future, except what they call the future will be what we call the past."

Thanks Godfrey for sharing. It ties in with: "And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided." - Letter to Menoeceus.

You mention that you just started with the book and this is from the first section of it. I see that there are words/phrases such as "personal values", "moderation", "meaningful satisfaction"...and I think that these need to be unpacked and re-labeled according to Epicurean philosophy.

"personal values" - Where do these come from? And you might ask, How did these come to be "my" values? They are often instilled by parents, family interactions, school, childhood experiences and friends, and culture (pop music, books, movies), etc. Now, through the lens of Epicurean philosophy then we might ask how what we value relates to: "natural-necessary, natural-but-optional, and empty opinion" -- as it relates to what brings pleasure, joy, and long-term well-being. But also it seems that we will see certain patterns with regard to "values" such that everyone essentially will value the same basic categories if they want a life of feeling good and experiencing joy - financial sufficiency, exercise (movement), friends/family connections, etc.

"moderation" - moderation in everything, right? ...no, sometimes we need to not do something at all. And the reason is that when we firmly decide that something brings more pain then pleasure then we lose interest in doing that. And what about excess of something? Who determines what "excess" is? If it causes problems (or pain) then it is no good, but if it brings pleasure and well-being then it's a thumbs-up. So as Epicureans we don't need to even need to worry about adding in "moderation" because it is baked-into the feedback loop automatically when we choose things according to long-term well-being.

"meaningful satisfaction" - the word "meaningful" can have two main definitions: 1) anything that brings long-term enjoyment to me, 2) long-term enjoyable social connections and interactions with people

Admin Edit: We now are setting up two meeting times: August 3rd, and August 9th... be sure to see post 2 below for more info.

************

Hi Everyone! We are planning a New Member Meet-and-Greet Zoom, for Monday, August 3, 2026 - 8pm ET -- This Zoom meeting is open to registered members of the forum and new members who have fully completed their registration process.

EpicureanFriends.com is a community dedicated to studying, practicing, and promoting Classical Epicurean philosophy. Like the ancient Epicurean school, it is a community of friends learning and working together to advance Epicurean philosophy today. The forum is dedicated to Classical Epicurean philosophy and participation which supports the shared focus of Pleasure as the Telos. Thoughtful questions and respectful discussion are the foundation upon which our group is built.

We want to especially invite Level 1 and Level 2 members, as an opportunity to get more involved and meet the admin and other members of the forum, as well as provide time for answering any questions about the forum and Epicurean philosophy. Attendance will also contribute toward future consideration for promotion to a higher membership level.

Level 1 and Level 2 members, please be sure you have reviewed Cassius' article: Against Katastematic Supremacy - Pleasure Is A Unified Good, Not A House Divided Against Itself - INCLUDES FORUM EDITORIAL POLICY. (*The full article is lengthy providing full supporting documentation, but you can find the basic points stated in the opening three paragraphs*).

Agenda:

• Welcome by Cassius and individual introductions - please be prepared to introduce yourself to everyone.
• A short presentation may be given either by Cassius, or by Kalosyni (depending on the number of people attending this may or may not be included in the meeting).
• Open time for asking questions about the forum or Epicurean philosophy (or further discussion on the presentation topic).

To attend: please RSVP here in this thread or message Cassius. A Zoom link will be given out the day before the meeting by private message.

***************

A Brief Review of Participation Levels on the EpicureanFriends forum:

Level 1 Guest: New members exploring the community -- after replying to the Welcome email sent out by the Admin (in which they introduce themselves), they can begin participating by posting further in their Welcome Thread (posting at this level is limited to the Welcome Thread). This membership level is invited to attend New Member Meet-and-Greet Zooms (please message Cassius if you are interested in attending).

Level 2 Guest: Members who have demonstrated good-faith participation -- are promoted to Level 2 and welcomed to post into the main discussion forums. This membership level is invited to attend New Member Meet-and-Greet Zooms -and- after receiving admin approval can attend Sunday Afternoon Zooms.

Level 3 Friend: Established members -- recognized for their sustained participation, shared commitment to Classical Epicurean philosophy, and trusted contributions. Friends have access to most forum features as well as advanced meetings (Twentieth Zooms and Wednesday Night Zooms).

Level 4 Veteran Friend: Experienced members -- who help maintain the quality and direction of discussion through long-standing commitment and leadership.

These participation levels reflect each member's permissions for posting, and indicate the level of engagement and alignment with the forum's purpose. They also help readers understand the experience and perspective behind each post. (Read a longer description here, in section 2).

Quote from Bryan

I’ll admit I do not think this fits. A drink is just another pleasure within the meal, not the thing that gives all the other pleasures their order and security. This makes established pleasures sound like an optional side item.

My analogy may not work for everyone...I was thinking about it this way:

If you were invited over to someone's house for dinner, and they served you a full dinner, but did not serve anything at all to drink with the dinner (no water, no lemonade, no wine, no nothing, etc.) then the meal would be lacking in something -- your total pleasure would be incomplete. Whether or not the meal is simple or extravagant is irrelevant, because there is still something else needed...and the pleasure of the meal would be "mixed" with a sense of discomfort. And I think that this is the point of PD10, and also PD12.

Here is a possible analogy for the "completeness" of pleasure:

A meal served without something to drink would be considered incomplete...

"a meal" = all the many varied pleasures of life

"something to drink" = removing fears of death & gods and adding in prudence (the correct understanding of choices and avoidances).

So altogether these would make a "complete meal" which would be an analogy of a complete life of pleasure and well-being.