Posts by Kalosyni

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  • During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?

    Thanks Don and thinking further...it appears that you may be hinting that we can't be totally certain about who exactly was attending Epicurus' Kepos, and what types of people attended the Epicurean communities. And yet, I don't think that it would be correct to compare Epicurean communities with early Christian communities. The teachings are very different and they will attract different people.

    We see in Lucretius that there is an emphasis on the natural physics with the majority of DRN focusing on the causes of things, so as to dispell the incorrect beliefs about gods causing natural phenomenon. We need to ask ourselves what types of people are interested in this focus, and to see that this aspect of Epicurean philosophy was shining the light on Nature as moving with its own driving force, and this was an "early science" to examine the world and learn about the things that causes various phenomenon. The study of natural physics requires a certain intelligence level, and so then these would be the people more likely to have aquired the skill of reading. So I still stand by my hypothesis that most people who studied Epicurean philosophy in ancient Greece could read.

  • What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?

    The original question: What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?

    Let us suppost that there is a person who is in daily bodily pain, and who is having difficulty in managing that pain, then that person may ask themselves if it feels "worth it" to be alive while suffering so much (perhaps it was a terrible car accident which caused this, or perhaps it is old age pains). But...death is cessation of all feeling and conciousness -- and so that particular person may be left with a conundrum, if they feel that both life and death seem to them of equal "value". (And because I think that there are some situations in which strong pains may actually interfere with living).

  • During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?

    I found this with Google:

  • During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?

    The question of literacy at the time of Epicurus came to me because I've been thinking about who exactly were the people that were engaging with the teachings of Epicurus...

    And because it also answers the question of who was Epicurus writing for...

    Quote

    Google query: during 341 bc to 270 bc what percentage of people could read philosophical texts in athens greece?

    Scholars estimate that overall literacy in ancient Athens from 341 to 270 BC was between 10% and 15% of the general population. However, the percentage of people who could read complex philosophical texts was much lower, likely around 3% to 5%. This specialized reading class primarily consisted of elite, wealthy, and educated adult male citizens. [1, 2, 3, 4]

    While Athenian democracy required basic reading skills to participate in civic duties, reading dense philosophy like the works of Epicurus or the earlier Platonist and Aristotelian texts demanded extensive formal education, which was heavily restricted by gender and socioeconomic class. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

    Any women who were present were likely either part of Epicurus' household (unfree slaves)...or educated hetaira...or perhaps wives who were taught by their wealthy philosophical husbands who were part of the school. The only male slave that was specifically mentioned by name in Diogenes Laertius was Mys, who was within Epicurus' household.

    The census of Demetrius Phalereus in 317 BC found 21,000 citizens, 10,000 metics and 400,000 slaves living in Athens.

    The metics were foreign born or freed slaves, who were not land owners, and yet some may have been wealthy and had free time.

    So then that leaves mainly the elite, wealthy, and educated adult male citizens and the sons of those men.

    And, this also frames the bigger picture regarding Epicurean philosophy as an important consideration in the interpretation of the texts. I can hardly think that Epicurus was telling these elite wealthy men to dispose of their wealth and possessions and become minimalists who only engage with the bare basic necessities in life.

    Epicurus was speaking to the same people as Lucretius was... in De Rerum Natura, book 6...which talks about the leaky jar / tainted jar:

    [Bailey-6:09] For when he saw that mortals had by now attained well-nigh all things which their needs crave for subsistence, and that, as far as they could, their life was established in safety, that men abounded in power through wealth and honours and renown, and were haughty in the good name of their children, and yet not one of them for all that had at home a heart less anguished, but with torture of mind lived a fretful life without any respite, and was constrained to rage with savage complaining, he then did understand that it was the vessel itself which wrought the disease, and that by its disease all things were corrupted within, whatsoever came into it gathered from without, yea even blessings; in part because he saw that it was leaking and full of holes, so that by no means could it ever be filled; in part because he perceived that it was tainted as with a foul savor all things within it, which it had taken in.

  • Welcome Max Duboff

    I am a little late in joining this discussion, and may or may not say much more.

    I object to using the word tranquility for the following reasons:

    Translating the ancient Greek concept of ataraxia as strictly "tranquility" is considered somewhat inaccurate because "tranquility" implies a passive, serene, or meditative state of inner peace . By contrast, ataraxia is a highly active, unshakeable state of mental resilience.

    Using the word tranquility misses the true essence of the term for several reasons:

    • The Etymology is Negative: The word is formed using an alpha-privative (a prefix meaning "without") attached to the Greek verb tarassein, meaning "to disturb, trouble, or agitate". It literally translates to "un-troubledness" or "imperturbability" rather than a positive state of calm.
    • Dynamic Resilience vs. Static Quiet: Tranquility evokes images of a quiet, peaceful room or a silent lake . Ataraxia , as used by Hellenistic philosophies like Epicureanism and Stoicism , is a robust, dynamic equilibrium that allows an individual to remain steadfast even when facing external chaos or extreme emotional triggers.
    • Active Engagement: To the ancient Greeks, ataraxia wasn't about completely removing oneself from the world (which tranquility implies) . It was about actively managing and overcoming unfounded anxieties and destructive passions so you can live a flourishing life, often referred to as eudaimonia.
    • Absence of Disturbance: The closest equivalent is "imperturbability" or "unperturbedness". It describes a condition where the mind refuses to be shaken or agitated by the fear of death, gods, or future pain.

    *********

    Ideas of some kind of a "perfect telos" cannot get one to the happy life. This is creating an abstraction beyond "honey is sweet, and snow is white" and it is dancing around with Plato's perfect forms.

    The pleasant and pleasurable life is made complete by: 1) following what nature provides (the inborn sense of feeling pleasure and pain), and 2) applying prudence when making choices as to what to do and what to avoid (choosing what leads to longterm health of the body and happiness of the soul) and 3) discarding "empty" and futile opinions which lead to great pains, and 4) developing a mental state of resiliency (not disturbed by fears of death or the gods)

    When one applies all these practices, the happy life is made complete now --- and this will be the blessedness of living like a god among men.

  • Your Experience with Philosophical and Practical Contemplations Through the Lens of Epicurean Philosophy

    I just posted this:

    Blog Article

    Contemplation Through the Lens of Epicurean Philosophy

    Contemplation Through the Lens of Epicurean Philosophy

    Epicureanism is about much more than savoring our meals. Epicurean philosophy calls us to engage the mind in rational thinking, but are we missing some important aspects of rational contemplation that might bring forward new insights toward living life more fully and pleasurably?

    Here are some thoughts on various philosophical and life issues to contemplate and reflect on during the study of Epicurean philosophy. Note that I did not add…
    Kalosyni
    June 26, 2026 at 8:48 AM

    This thread can be used for comments or thought on personal contemplation through the lens of Epicurean philosophy.

  • New Advancement on Reading Herculaneum Scrolls

    I just see that this is in the news:

    Quote

    Among the new material ⁠presented on Thursday were 70 columns of text from "On Vices, Book 1", attributed to the Epicurean philosopher Philodemus.

    Nearly 1.5 metres (5 ft) of readable text across 20 columns was also recovered from a document dated to 200-300 BC — the oldest Herculaneum scroll yet unwrapped — exploring ethics, arts and human behaviour.

    https://www.reuters.com/science/complete-text-carbonised-herculaneum-scroll-unlocked-first-time-2026-06-25/

  • What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?

    Quote from Todd

    I think the best approach would be to understand why they have this belief in the first place (which you have not stipulated) and approach it from there, rather than attacking the life-vs-death logic directly.

    This question could come up when considering whether to have children or to not have children. If the state of living is more valuable on a philosophical level, then you might be pressured to have children because of that. But if "life" vs "not life" on a philosophical level are equal, then it would be equally acceptable to choose not to have children.

    From the Letter to Menoeceus, it seems to me that the philosophical attitude regarding the value of life vs death are equal:

    [126] "But the many at one moment shun death as the greatest of evils, at another (yearn for it) as a respite from the (evils) in life. (But the wise man neither seeks to escape life) nor fears the cessation of life, for neither does life offend him nor does the absence of life seem to be any evil."

    And, if you are already alive, then the idea is to not shun this life.

  • Comparing Modern Ideas vs Epicurean Ideas on Well-being and Joy

    Patrikios - Here is are some comparisons to textual references in Epicurean philosophy, mapped according to some of the points in Post 1 above (although some of these may be more loosely related)...

    Cultivate Gratitude

    “The wealth demanded by nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth demanded by vain ideals extends to infinity.”
    — PD 15

    “Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for.”
    — VS 35

    Practice Mindfulness (being fully present now)

    “The future is neither wholly ours nor wholly not ours, so that neither must we completely expect it nor despair of it as if it would not come.”
    — PD 14

    “Accustom yourself to think that death is nothing to us…”
    — Letter to Menoeceus, §124–125

    Embrace Continuous Learning

    “Let no one delay the study of philosophy while young nor weary of it when old; for no one is either too early or too late to secure the health of the soul.”
    — Letter to Menoeceus, §122

    Find a Sense of Purpose

    “We must study the things which produce happiness, since when happiness is present, we have everything; when it is absent, all our actions are directed toward attaining it.”
    — Letter to Menoeceus, §122–123

    Nurture Relationships

    “Of all the things that wisdom provides for the happiness of the whole life, by far the greatest is the possession of friendship.”
    — PD 27

    “Friendship dances around the world proclaiming to us all to awaken to blessedness.”
    — VS 52

    Help Others

    “Every friendship is desirable in itself; but it had its beginning in usefulness.”
    — PD 23

    Nourish Your Body

    “Plain fare offers the same pleasure as a luxurious table when once the pain of want is removed.”
    — Letter to Menoeceus, §131

  • Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence (Eternal Return) In Relation To Lucretius

    Quote from Cassius

    Its purpose is to test your life-affirmation;

    In other words, it is a test for your appreciation of whether you really find your life desirable, in that if you do you will want the opportunity to live life as long and energetically as possible.

    Quote from Cassius

    Vatican Saying 38: "He is of very small account for whom there are many good reasons for ending his life."

    The implication here is that "externals" are not important, but does this end up taking on a "stoic" flavor, especially as an aspect of "eternal return" is accepting what has happened no matter how bad.

  • Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence (Eternal Return) In Relation To Lucretius

    Trying to understand "eternal recurrence" and found this from Google:

    This brings up more questions for reflection that are not found in Epicurean philosophy.

  • PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24

    This may need it's own thread, but currently this section of the forum is set up so that no new threads can be added.

    Does Principal Doctrine 24 & 25, describe how "principled action" is arrived at?

    (24) "...And if among the mental images created by your opinion you affirm both that which awaits confirmation, and that which does not, you will not escape error, since you will have preserved the whole cause of doubt in every judgment between what is right and what is wrong."

    (25) "If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles."

    First we would need to consider what does "being principled" mean?

    A possible first step of defining it:

    Quote

    (From Google)

    Being a deeply principled person means consistently aligning your thoughts, choices, and actions with a clear, consciously chosen set of ethical standards. It is defined by having unshakeable core values and the integrity to maintain those truths, even when it is costly, inconvenient, or unpopular.

    Defining traits of deeply principled individuals include:

    • Unwavering Integrity: Maintaining total alignment between words and actions. Principled people act according to their character rather than changing their behavior based on the audience.
    • Moral Courage: Standing firm in one's convictions rather than taking the easy way out or giving in to peer pressure.
    • Sense of Fairness and Justice: Treating others with respect, honesty, and empathy, while advocating for equality and ethical standards.
    • Self-Awareness and Responsibility: Taking ownership of personal actions, accepting the consequences of decisions, and continuously reflecting on personal growth.
    • Consistency over Perfection: While a principled person strives to do what is morally right, they are recognizable through consistent, everyday choices rather than the illusion of flawlessness.

  • Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis

    All posts mentioning the gods have been moved (and general prolepsis comments by Bryan have been copied and exist in both threads. Also, Titus' AI query exists in both threads).

    New thread split off to discuss prolepsis of the gods:

    Thread

    Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus)

    Admin Edit: This thread is for discussion on the nature of the gods spurred on by a section below: "An especially interesting case: the gods" (A number of posts have been moved or copied depending on the content).

    For discussion on LLM's please visit this thread.

    **********

    Today, I had a short but interesting talk with Chat GPT:

    Titus: Is there a connection between large language models and Epicurean prolepsis? Could Epicurean prolepsis be interpreted as what LLMs are processing?

    Yes, there is a…
    Kalosyni
    June 12, 2026 at 2:25 PM

  • Stoic After-school Programs??

    Very interesting! ...

    Quote

    Teaching is not my professional background. My job is that of being a compliance officer. And all my Stoic practice was mainly cultivated through adult discussion groups and mentoring adult students at the College of Stoic Philosophers. I wasn’t sure how to begin when it came to working with teenagers. So, I did what I do at work: I created a manual.

    The manual had the traditional framework: there was a section on Logic, Physics, and Ethics; the four cardinal virtues: Practical Wisdom, Courage, Justice, and Temperance; the three disciplines: Judgment, Assent, and Action; and sections on Daily Practice and Community. On the first day, I opened the class with an introduction covering a high-level theory of Stoicism. Almost immediately, I could see their attention slipping. The concepts were too abstract, too distant from their day-to-day lives and concerns.

    ... So, I pivoted.

  • Suavity - General Discussion

    Quote from Cassius

    We very much need articles addressing the nature of "good manners" both in general and here on the forum. We know that Epicurus did not hesitate to use mocking wordss against his philosophical enemies, and we know that he strongly advised "frank speech" in ways that are direct but constructive.

    I don't think that the use of mocking words against philosophical enemies is constructive, and it goes against suavity. (I like to think that Diogene Laertius got that aspect of Epicurus wrong).

    Also....VS79. The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another.

  • Suavity - General Discussion

    This is interesting regarding the word "suavity" (from Google):

    The shift from describing sensory or spiritual sweetness to describing human manners occurred gradually between the late 16th century and the mid-18th century, solidifying into its modern definition by the early 19th century.

    The evolution happened in distinct stages, heavily influenced by changing social structures and the French language.

    1. The Transition Stage (Late 1500s–1600s)

    During the Renaissance, writers began applying the concept of "sweetness" metaphors to human speech and interactions. Rather than just describing heaven, a person’s voice or disposition could have a pleasing, gentle quality.

    • 1640s: The derivative word suaviloquy emerged, meaning "sweetness of speech". At this stage, the word still implied a natural, gentle disposition rather than calculated, sophisticated social etiquette.

    2. The Influence of French Court Culture (Late 1600s–1700s)

    The true catalyst for the modern meaning was the French word suavité. In the French court, suavité evolved to mean a refined, polished, and agreeable social presence. As English high society began obsessively mimicking French etiquette—spearheaded by figures like Philip Stanhope, the 4th Earl of Chesterfield, who popularized the concept of modern etiquette in the mid-1700s—the English definition of "suavity" shifted from internal kindness to external behavior.

    3. The Solidification of "Suavity of Manners" (Late 1700s–1815)

    By the late 18th century, the exact phrase "suavity of manners" became a standard idiom in the English language to describe a gentleman or lady who possessed sophisticated, worldly, and smooth social graces.

    • 1780s–1800s: Historical biographies and legal records from the late Georgian era routinely praised notable figures, politicians, and educators for their "suavity of manners" to denote high breeding and an ability to charm others in public life.
    • 1815: Lexicographers note that by this year, the modern definition of "suave" and "suavity"—meaning smooth or urbanely agreeable—became established as a meaning, eclipsing the original "sweetness" definition.

    ***

    The word "suavity" underwent a linguistic process known as semantic pejoration—where a positive word gradually takes on negative, condescending, or untrustworthy connotations.

    A shift to a negative description occurred during the mid-to-late 19th century, directly following its peak as a compliment in Victorian high society.

    The transition from a genuine virtue to a red flag happened in two distinct phases:

    1. The Victorian Backlash (1850s–1880s)

    By the middle of the 19th century, the industrial revolution had given rise to a massive new middle class. To climb the social ladder, people heavily studied etiquette books to mimic the "suavity of manners" used by the aristocracy.

    Because anyone could now memorize these smooth manners, society began to view extreme suavity with suspicion. Writers, social critics, and the public realized that a highly polished exterior could easily be a mask for deception, greed, or manipulation.

    • The "Slick" Professional: During this era, novelists began attributing "suavity" to villains, hypocritical politicians, untrustworthy lawyers, and swindlers to emphasize how their charm was being used to lower their victims' guard.
    • The "Bland" Critic: By 1880, dictionary definitions began incorporating terms like "blandly agreeable" to describe suavity. In the Victorian lexicon, "blandness" implied a total lack of spine, authentic character, or moral conviction.

    2. The 20th-Century Link to Insincerity (1900s–Present)

    By the early 20th century, the modern negative nuance was completely cemented. Today, labeling someone's behavior as "suavity" or calling a man "suave" is often a double-edged sword or a backhanded compliment. It subtly implies:

    • Superficiality: The charm is artificial, practiced, and lacks genuine warmth or depth.
    • Calculated Intent: The smooth behavior is being deployed intentionally to get something—whether it is a salesman closing a deal, a politician hunting for votes, or a seducer breaking hearts.
    • Unctuousness: Much like the word oily or slick, it suggests a personality that is a little too perfect, making it feel slimy and inherently untrustworthy.

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

Here is a list of suggested search strategies:

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