Posts by Kalosyni

Hang in there wbernys and hope you have a speedy recovery!

Quote from Cassius

the boxes you referenced above (such as the Tetrapharmakon) remain a superficial replacement for actually studying and learning and caring about what Epicurus had to say.

The Tetrapharmakos gives conclusions but doesn't give the necessary reasoning behind those conclusions. This is a good reason to turn directly to the first four Kuriai Doxi (Principal Doctrines) rather than the Tetrapharmakos.

Quote from Cassius

"Tranquil withdrawal"... The statement near the end to the effect that no one cares anymore about the core issues that motivated them to develop their philosophy, and the only thing important today is whether to "withdraw" or "engage."

We need to create the correct labels (or phrases) in order to combat the incorrect ones.

Epicureans engaged in "a life of philosophical study" (not tranquil withdrawal).

Instead of "Tetrapharmakos"..."the First Four KD's".

Quote from Cassius

with the rivers of blood entailed by the French revolution

Likely they should have said "French Renaissance" not revolution.

Regarding "katastematic and kinetic" - even though we've discussed the problems with these labels through-out the forum, these ideas keep coming back and I think it is because the labels function as "containers" for ideas. Until there are better "containers" created, they will remain (in a similar manner as the Tetrapharmakos "container" remains).

Quote from Cassius

The main goal is not to study the reasons for human misery and understand how to live pleasantly. The main goal was to understand the nature of knowledge and the univers, AFTER WHICH you can conclude that pleasure is the guide and goal and reject goals of virtue or piety or reason for their own sakes.

I think it would have been better if they had said something about a goal of "living the best life", and also the article may been refering to all the ancient/hellenistic schools in general (not just Epicureanism). Epicureanism says of pleasure that is it is both the beginning and the end of the best life, yet there is also the importance of virtue being inseparable from the pleasant life, which is something we need to more fully develop here on the forum.

Particulary, this section was interesting:

"According to Epicurus, a pleasant life can be achieved with the absence of pain and fear and by leading a self-sufficient life surrounded by friends. He also said that pleasure and pain are the measure by which we should decide what to prefer and what to avoid. Pleasure is morally acceptable and should be pursued, as long as it ensures that we obtain inner peace. If this is achieved through pain as well, then pain also becomes a positive force. Therefore, choosing among pleasures is no longer a matter of quantity, but quality."

I found a website which has a good short overview (in my opinion)...here is an excerpt:

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Epicurus (04/02/-341 - 270 BC)

Epicurus was an Ancient Greek philosopher, who created his own School, called Epicureanism, one of the best known schools of Greek philosophy.

He was born in 341 BC in the island of Samos and he was an Athenian citizen. Still a child, Epicurus got acquainted with the philosophical though of Nausiphanes who lived in the nearby island Teos; as a result, he was closer to Democritus’ theories, rather than any Platonic way of thinking. When he was 18, he went to Athens in order to serve his military duties at the same time as the comedic playwright Menandrus. Not much is known for the next 15 years of his life.

Later, he created his own philosophical circle in Mytilene and Lampsacus. He returned to Athens when he was 34 years old, where he bought an estate to house his philosophical school, the Garden of Epicurus. He taught for 35 years, leading a quiet and simple life. All members of the school, men, women, courtesans and slaves, had an equal contribution. Epicurus died in 270 BC, aged 72.

During the Hellenistic era, i.e. the period starting with the death of Alexander the Great (323 BC) and ends with the naval battle in Aktio (31 BC), Epicureanism played a central role in philosophy, along with the schools of Stoics, Aristotelians, Skeptics, Cynics etc. Epicurus’ theory revolves around the moral character of philosophy. The main goal is to study the reasons of human misery and the wrong beliefs that cause it, e.g. superstition, so as to understand how to live pleasantly. According to Epicurus, a pleasant life can be achieved with the absence of pain and fear and by leading a self-sufficient life surrounded by friends. He also said that pleasure and pain are the measure by which we should decide what to prefer and what to avoid. Pleasure is morally acceptable and should be pursued, as long as it ensures that we obtain inner peace. If this is achieved through pain as well, then pain also becomes a positive force. Therefore, choosing among pleasures is no longer a matter of quantity, but quality.

Moreover, Epicurus discerned between two types of pleasure, katastematic and kinetic. Concerning kinetic pleasure, the person feels discomfort until they achieve it. Katastematic ones are much more powerful. For example, satisfying the sense of hunger is a kinetic pleasure. However, the sense of calmness after someone is no longer hungry is a katastematic pleasure. Therefore, if someone eats too much, they will have achieved the kinetic pleasure of satisfying their hunger, but not the katastematic pleasure of calmness, and they will be miserable.

The Epicurean philosophy has influenced various movements throughout history. Thinkers of the French Revolution, as well as people such as John Locke, were hugely inspired by these teachings. Thomas Jefferson, considering himself an Epicurean, said that “all men are created equal” and have rights, such as “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.

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You can see the source website here.

(Please note: the source website is a "travel to Greece" website, yet they do have interesting pictures and history write-ups).

Here is a newly rendered English version, created by TauPhi (PDF document)

Excerpt translated by Marcellus Palingenius Stellatus’ poem “Zodiacus Vitae” (1536)[Liber III - Gemini]

Translated out of Latin into Early Modern English under the title of “The Zodiake of Life” (1588) [The third Booke - Gemini] by Barnabe Googe

Annotated and rendered into Modern English (2026)

Bryan I've resorted to using Google:

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The Ancient Greek word ἀσχολούμενος (ascholoumenos) is a middle/passive present participle meaning "being busy," "occupied with," or "engaged in an activity." [1, 2]

Key Linguistic Breakdown

• Grammatical Form: It is the masculine singular present middle/passive participle of the verb ἀσχολέομαι (ascholeomai), which means "to have no leisure" or "to be busy." [1]
• Literal Roots:
  • ἀ- (a-): The privative prefix meaning "not" or "without."
  • σχολή (skholē): Meaning "leisure" or "free time." (This is the ironic root of our English word "school", because the ancient Greeks viewed education and philosophical study as an activity meant for one's free leisure time). [1]
• Literal Meaning: Combined, the word literally translates to "one who is without leisure time." [1]

In everyday Ancient Greek context, if you were ascholoumenos, you were actively tied up with work, an obligation, or business affairs.

In our current modern cultural environment, longterm relationships (whether co-habitating or married) are most often a main source for friendship (and we all know that PD27 says: "Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.")

But, what does a healthy relationship look like? Of course you could say that a healthy relationship is also a pleasurable relationship. I just found this very good article which gives very good insights into this:

The following are the 8 points from the article, and the link to the full article follows below:

Taking interest

Acceptance and respect

Positive regard

Meeting basic needs

Positive interactions

Solve problems

Rupture and repair

Reciprocity

8 Keys to Healthy Relationships

Ever wonder what a really healthy relationship looks like? Check this out.

www.psychologytoday.com

Quote from Bryan

On the original topic, I wanted to point out the fun connection that the word for "school" is the same as "leisure" -- and the word in question is the negation of leisure -- i.e., occupation. This is why the translations diverge a bit at this point.

This came up in last night's Zoom, and if I remember correctly that Bryan said that one's work was what one had to do to provide oneself with essentials to stay alive, but when one wasn't working it was thought that they should be "in school" studying philosophy.

Bryan would you translate VS14 differently compared to the Epicurus Wiki translation?

Quote from Matteng

I had religious education and was in an esoteric idealist bubble and the Internet was young and full pseudoscience and almost no one debunked it or it was hard to find.

Evidently right now and in recent years there is a surge of interest in tarot cards, and people use it to aid them in making decisions according to an NPR article. But I don't think that would be a good idea at all.

From a modern psychology perspective, here is a webpage with some very good reading regarding decision making:

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Chocolate or strawberry? Life or death? We make some choices quickly and automatically, relying on mental shortcuts our brains have developed over the years to guide us in the best course of action, even as we deliberate over others almost endlessly. Understanding strategies—such as maximizing versus satisficing, fast versus slow thinking, and factors such as risk tolerance and choice overload—can lead to better outcomes.

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What is informed decision-making?

The ability to think critically is key to making good decisions without succumbing to common errors or bias. This means not just going with your gut, but rather figuring out what knowledge you lack and obtaining it. When you look at all possible sources of information with an open mind, you can make an informed decision based on facts rather than intuition.

Full webpage with various articles:

I've just recently returned to researching more on the poetry of Omar Khayyam, and one aspect that does resonate with Epicurean philosophy is how he speaks about the physical nature of death and the finality of it. However, there is a strain of pessimism that comes with it, which in my opinion isn't "Epicurean".

My interest in this continued research, in spite of the many differences between his poetry and Epicurean philosophy, is to tease out further insights by comparison. Also, this is an attempt to investigate how to acknowledge and nurture the connection between the rational mind and the "felt sense of soul" that all humans have. This time of year as the seasons begin to shift toward shorter days, cooler weather, harvest and changing leaves, brings with it a feeling of turning inward and exploring the psyche (and more dreams at night).

Quote from kochiekoch

From what you write, Fitzgeralds Rubaiyat sounds more Cyrenaic than Epicurean or, I'll bet Sufi.

Here is what I've found in some research:

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Query: What are some differences between Khayyam’s literal celebration of wine versus the Sufis' metaphorical use of it, and what evidence specifically shows these differences?

Google AI:

The debate over whether Omar Khayyam was a literal hedonist or a hidden Sufi mystic has lasted for centuries. While Sufi commentators later "Sufized" Khayyam's verses to shield him from charges of heresy, modern scholarly consensus highlights a profound rift between Khayyam’s literal, existential view of wine and the Sufis' highly structured spiritual allegory.

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The Core Differences

Dimension	Omar Khayyam's Wine	The Sufis' Wine
Nature of Wine	Material & Literal: Tangible juice of the grape that provides physical oblivion from life's cruelty.	Metaphorical & Spiritual: The intoxication of divine love (‘ishq) that dissolves the ego.
The "Tavern"	A Real Refuge: A physical place of social gathering, rule-breaking, and temporary escape.	The Spiritual Heart: A metaphorical space where the soul undergoes transformation under a master.
The Purpose	Existential Oblivion: To forget the inescapable tragedy of mortality and the silence of the cosmos.	Mystical Awakening: To attain a state of higher consciousness (fana) and union with God.
Attitude Toward Time	Deep Pessimism: Time is a destroyer; the present moment (دم - dam) is all we have before turning to dust.	Divine Presentism: The present moment is the "eternal now" where the soul meets the Creator.

---

The Evidence: Comparing the Poetry

The structural and philosophical differences between literal and metaphorical wine become undeniable when evaluating specific textual evidence from Khayyam alongside his contemporary Sufi counterparts.

1. Evidence of Khayyam’s Materialism vs. Sufi Transience

Khayyam's poems consistently anchor wine to the physical reality of the human body decomposing into clay and pottery. For Khayyam, the wine cup is made of the dust of dead men, and literal wine fills it.

• Khayyam’s Verse:

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  "This jug was once a lonely lover like me, trapped in the tangles of a beauty's hair. This handle that you see upon its neck was once an arm around a sweetheart's neck... Drink wine! For you will sleep long beneath the clay, without a companion, friend, or mate."

  • The Analysis: Khayyam's imagery relies on the inescapable finality of physical death. There is no afterlife mentioned here—only physical decay. Wine is a literal analgesic to numb the horror of returning to dust.

• The Sufi Contrast (Rumi):
  Sufi giants like Jalal al-Din Rumi explicitly mocked those who needed literal grape wine to feel joy, emphasizing that a mystic is intoxicated by the Creator, not the vine.

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  "The Sufi is drunk without wine; sated without meat... We are intoxicated by a wine that never grew on vines, poured from a cup that was never shaped by a potter."

  • The Analysis: Rumi explicitly detaches his "wine" from biology and agriculture. Khayyam’s wine requires a grape and a potter; Rumi’s wine exists completely outside of creation.

2. Evidence of Khayyam’s Agnosticism vs. Sufi Certainty

Sufis use wine as a tool to gain divine knowledge (ma'rifah). Khayyam, conversely, uses wine precisely because divine knowledge is impossible to obtain.

• Khayyam’s Verse:

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  "The secrets of eternity are known neither to you nor me; this riddle can be read neither by you nor me. Behind the veil is much talk of you and me; when the veil falls, neither you nor me remain... Fill the cup, for we know not when we shall breathe our last."

  • The Analysis: Khayyam looks at the universe, sees a closed door and a silent God, and gives up on theology. Wine is his answer to the futility of philosophy.

• The Sufi Contrast (Hafez):
  While the later poet Hafez adopted Khayyam's skeptical style to attack hypocritical clerics, his "wine" is still a conduit to the divine throne room:

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  "Pour wine into my cup, for the Magian wine-steward tells me that the secrets of the universe are written upon the bottom of the chalice."

  • The Analysis: For the Sufi, the wine actually reveals the cosmic secrets that Khayyam laments are forever hidden behind a veil.

3. Historical and Biographical Evidence

The ultimate proof of Khayyam's literalism lies in how his contemporaries viewed him. Khayyam was fundamentally a scientist, mathematician, and astronomer—not a Sufi master.

• The Testimony of Al-Ghazali and Najm al-Din Razi:
  The prominent 13th-century Sufi scholar Najm al-Din Razi openly attacked Khayyam in his text Mirsad al-Ibad. He explicitly classified Khayyam not as a mystic, but as a philosopher and materialist who had lost his way. Razi lamented that Khayyam wrote verses displaying "the height of blindness and confusion," proving that medieval Sufis themselves did not view Khayyam as one of their own.
• Philosophical Treatises:
  In Khayyam's surviving prose treatises on philosophy, he categorizes seekers of truth into four groups: theologians, philosophers, Ismailis, and Sufis. He praises the Sufis for seeking purification rather than academic argument, but he writes about them in the third person as an outside observer, never identifying himself as a member of their path.

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Quote from EpicuriousDavid

Or put another way: a collection of questions to ponder/consider while one studies Epicurus?

You could take a glance at this FAQ section, and ponder your own answer and then afterward click open to see what the answer is (answers are by Cassius or a section of the forum).

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Also: How to build healthy self-concept and making meaning in an atomistic worldview (free from the "supernatural").

Quote from Cassius

Patrikios had a very specific suggestion -- that it would be great to have a book of the title in this thread-starter. Such a book might be of interest to a wide group of young people, and would be a good way to summarize for ourselves some of the most important things we have learned.

In the (current) absence of such a book, it would be helpful to us and motivational to book/article/video producers if we asked for contributions in this thread suggesting points that such a work might contain.

Here are some suggestions off the top of my head, based on Epicurean principals:

-- Understanding the limits of pleasure and pain

-- Choices and avoidances - common everyday choices and also long-term lifestyle choices such as where to live, career, marriage, children

-- "Natural-necessary"--"Natural-optional"--"Empty opinions"

-- Importance of putting effort into "goods" which lead to the best life (friendship, sufficiency, etc.)

-- How to navigate through and avoid troubles caused by the "modern religious landscape" and also "unnatural" worldviews such as pessimism, extreme skepticism, harsh stoicism, perfectionism, hyper-consumerism, etc.

-- Moral choices based on that which is instrumental for creating the best life (non-harming).

Here is a website article which summarizes the Hellenistic period this way:

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The Hellenistic Period, spanning roughly from the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC to the rise of Roman dominance, was an era marked by profound social, political, and cultural upheaval. The collapse of the Greek city-state system and the emergence of vast empires radically altered how individuals understood their place in the world. Traditional civic identities weakened, political participation diminished, and daily life became increasingly unstable and unpredictable. In this context of uncertainty, philosophy shifted its focus from abstract speculation to the practical problem of how to live well amid disorder.

Philosophical schools such as Stoicism, Epicureanism, Cynicism, and Skepticism emerged as direct responses to these conditions. Stoicism, founded by Zeno of Citium, taught that inner peace could be achieved by aligning one’s will with reason and nature, accepting what lies beyond one’s control, and cultivating virtue as the only true good. Epicureanism, developed by Epicurus, offered a different path, advocating for modest pleasure, freedom from fear, and the cultivation of friendship as defenses against anxiety and political chaos.

Cynicism pushed this practical orientation to its limits, rejecting social conventions, wealth, and status altogether in favor of radical simplicity and independence. Skepticism, particularly in its Pyrrhonian form, responded to uncertainty by suspending judgment, arguing that tranquility arises when one abandons the futile search for absolute certainty in an unstable world.

Despite their differences, these schools shared a common goal: securing personal tranquility in an unpredictable environment. Philosophy became a form of therapy, aimed at protecting the individual rather than reforming the state. By shifting attention from external power to inner stability, Hellenistic philosophers provided tools for resilience that remain relevant today. Their work reflects a timeless insight: that when social structures fail to offer security, wisdom must be sought within the self.

Source:

Ancient Greek Philosophy Guide: Key Thinkers, Schools, and Ideas | TheCollector

Here’s an approachable summary of the most important figures of Ancient Greek Philosophy, their thoughts, and theories that stood the test of time.

www.thecollector.com

This fun video looks good for understanding vision through modern science:

This article covers the recent law that passed in the state of Illinois, and further aspects.

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In recent years, the practice of allowing doctors to help terminally ill patients end their lives with medication has been legalized in several countries, with many more considering it. In the U.S., New York and Illinois recently became the latest states to join an accelerating pace of such legislation.

https://apnews.com/article/medical-assistance-dying-religion-endoflife-fa8c6b2cb828695e2f492bda6597ee01

Through-out this forum there are number of ways in which virtue is listed, including "no absolute virtue" which I think can come across as unclear.

I think a more clear way would be to say:

Virtues are entirely instrumental and inseparable from the happy life.

*****

Also just a note for future "to-do" list...it looks like some re-organization of the ethics sub-forum is needed regarding the various virtues. (And that also there is a section by Philodemus that is not under ethics but is under texts and persons).

At yesterday's Twentieth Zoom, I gave a short presentation on aspects of the symposium, and this was a slide, with further info.

We don't know exactly what occurred at historical Twentieth gatherings...but here is some speculation:

There was either a large gathering at the Kepos gardens (perhaps no more than 50 people, and not as a "symposium") and/or there were small gatherings at various private homes which may have been up to 12 attendees plus their hetairai (female companions, as was the ancient Greek custom) and which followed the cultural format of a symposium.

Here is a bit more from yesterday's presentation:

Written records and literary accounts of symposia in Hellenistic Athens do exist, though they are largely fragmentary and frequently preserved as quotes within later Roman-era texts. While the most famous complete accounts of the Athenian symposium come from the Classical period (most notably the works of Plato and Xenophon), prominent Hellenistic philosophers, playwrights, and historians continued to write about and record the evolving nature of these drinking parties in Athens.

The Fragmentary Symposium of Epicurus: The most notable native written record from Hellenistic Athens is the lost Symposium written by the philosopher Epicurus. While the original text has not survived intact, extensive fragments and descriptions are preserved by later authors:

• Athenaeus of Naucratis provides critical commentary on Epicurus' work in his encyclopedic text, the Deipnosophistae ("Doctors at Dinner"). Athenaeus notes that Epicurus broke traditional conventions by featuring a dialogue composed entirely of philosophers (pejoratively dubbed "atom prophets") and skipping traditional structural preliminaries like formal libations to the gods.

• Plutarch also explicitly references Epicurus' Symposium, noting that the dialogue moved away from political theory to debate the physiological and scientific effects of wine and sex.

Kraters were central to the symposium both literally and culturally. The Krater or "mixing bowl," used for mixing wine and water, was placed at the center of the room. The Symposiasts, or the participants, reclined on their couches around the krater. Their couches were placed along the wall of the room, and this limited the number of men attending to between eight and twelve. Tables on which the wine and food was served, were slightly lower and placed in front of the couches.
The symposiarch would oversee the symposium. The main focus of his job was the dilution of the wine. It was up to him to decide how strong the wine would be depending on the type of discussion or entertainment that was expected for the evening Kraters were quite large, so they were not easily portable when filled. Thus, the wine-water mixture would be withdrawn from the krater with other vessels, such as a kyathos, an amphoreus, or a kylix.

Before dilution, wine in ancient Athens typically had an alcohol content of 9% to 15% ABV (alcohol by volume), though some sweet or concentrated varieties could reach up to 16% to 18% ABV.
Dilution and Consumption • Ancient Athenians almost never drank wine neat. Drinking unadulterated wine was considered a barbaric habit fit only for ruining one's mind or health. Wine was mixed with water in a large vessel called a krater before being served.

• Common Ratios: Typical mixing ratios ranged from 3 parts water to 1 part wine (3:1) to 5 parts water to 2 parts wine (5:2).

• Final Alcohol Strength: This heavy watering-down meant the actual cup of liquid consumed during a symposium or meal had a much lower alcohol content, usually resting around 2% to 5% ABV- similar to a modern light beer or cider.

• Athenians enhanced their wine to balance or mask off-tasting flavors, using three primary methods: Infusion during fermentation - herbs like thyme, oregano, or mint were bundled into porous linen cloths, weighted down, and submerged in the grape must. Amphora linings and sealants of sticky pine resin from the Aleppo pine were used. And when needed they also added fresh herbs or floral perfumes directly into the krater shortly before consumption.