Happy Twentieth!
Here is a paraphrasing regarding gratitude, taken from Vatican Saying 17 and section 133 from the Letter to Menoeceus: Do not stumble around as if you are of many minds, but instead enter the harbor of gratitude because you are now sure of the good things that bring happiness.
...and Happy Thanksgiving to all! 
The word "happiness" needs to be defined...because it is both the transitory feeling that arises when human needs are met/fulfilled, and also the feeling of being okay with (or satisfied with) how one's life is unfolding.
We need to feel that there are more moments of joy than vexation, and we need to feel like our life course is sailing along in a satisfactory way.
The quest and desire for "meaning" is brought about by feeling vexation and dissatisfaction with one's life. There is a feeling that something is missing, but what it is...is a mystery... because civilization (and the modern world) has made it difficult to get certain basic human needs met. And then these very basic needs are ignored and made out to be unimportant. Instead there is "God" or "helping others through volunteer work".
The mystery needs to be uncovered, and we can begin to see an indication in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
In the modern world everyone has a unique take on what is felt to be individually "meaningful" (or important). But something must be tied into a bigger picture of the human life cycle ...either with family or with chosen friends. And then, seeing what came before, what is occuring now, and what will continue on in the future (the next generation) is a kind of transcendence -- seeing the cycle of life and feeling a part of that cycle of life. I would say that this would be an "Epicurean meaning of life" -- both seeing "the way things are", and "teaching the way things are".
Yes, there is a certain point at which you are dead, and the neurons stop firing.
Regarding the word "death" - first of all we see death in movies but often times it isn't depicted realistically --sometimes the person either dies peacefully or suddenly or the pain is minimized.
Also, some people may cognize "death" as a verb and a process - for example "he had a painful death".
And it is important to think about how Epicurus was talking about the state of being dead - so to rephrase it: "once we are dead, that state of being is nothing to us,..."
And here is something to consider: I think there could be a parallel between the experience of birth compared to the experience of death. Often when a person dies they have knowledge and sentient awareness which is different than when a baby is born, and yet there is a process that must occur which takes time and is passage into death.
Another article, here is an excerpt:
Although death has historically been medically defined as the moment when the heart irreversibly stops beating, recent studies have suggested brain activity in many animals and humans can continue for seconds to hours. In 2013, for instance, University of Michigan neurologist Jimo Borjigin and team found that rats’ brains showed signs of consciousness up to 30 seconds after their hearts had stopped beating. “We have this binary concept of life and death that is ancient and outdated,” Parnia says.
My belief, and after reading the article -- if you've lived a wise and pleasant life, there isn't anything to fear about the 30 seconds (or however long it takes) for consciousness to fully dissipate.
Here is an interesting article, and there may be others with more science details:
Hello forum members!
Coming up next week is our monthly Twentieth Gathering!
Agenda: Welcome and greetings, commemoration short reading for Epicurus and Metrodorus, short presentation on this month's highlighted famous Epicureans, discussion of popular forum threads and Epicurean philosophy, as well as time to bring up the theme of gratitude.
Previous attendees: A link will be sent out by private message prior to the meeting. Looking forward to seeing you again!
"Members (03)" -- Let us know if you haven't attended before, and your name will be added to the private message list. Hope you can join us!
"Introductory Members (01)" -- Participation in the Twentieth is generally limited to Level Three Members, but "Introductory Members" are eligible to attend upon request. Approval is limited to those who demonstrate a sound understanding of Epicurean philosophy through forum postings or participation in a "First Monday" meet and greet Zoom meeting. If you are not level 3 but you are interested in attending a 20th Zoom, please message Cassius or Kalosyni.
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Twentieth Theme: "Gratitude" - this is a great time of year to think about and talk about gratitude!
My phone battery died mid-call, sorry to have missed the end!
Oh no! We missed you.
Last night you said something really good about the nature of justice and also quoted Thomas Jefferson...wondering if you have written anything or can write on that? I think it is an important topic. (We do have this sub-forum).
There is a thread on the discussion of the translation of Principle Doctrine 2 over here: 
This is the updated description for the "Advocate" badge:
In recognition of members who have created Epicurean philosophy reference, study, or teaching materials such as documents, articles, YouTube videos, pamphlets, books, social media materials, external Epicurean philosophy websites, or events such as seminars or symposiums. Regarding the badge graphic: DeWitt gives evidence in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" that the Epicureans were "pamphleteers", and this was important for the spread of Epicureanism. Now in our time we see how important it is to create methods and materials for sharing the philosophy. The leaping pig image captures the joy of being alive, and the leaping pig was a symbol used by ancient Epicureans.
Also, those who have received this now have brief descriptions of their contributions next to their names on the badge page. (If you would like the description changed or something added, send me a private message please, or if I missed anybody let me know).
Happy Birthday briefvacation !
Here is another article:
When experiment and theory diverge, it can mean one of two things—either your measurement is wrong, or your theory is wrong. And that, in a nutshell is the Hubble tension. Which is wrong, the theory or the experiment?
Badges have been given out...if we have missed anyone, please let us know!
There is now a new forum member badge: Advocate
This is awarded to forum members who support the ongoing process of sharing Epicurean philosophy with others through the creation of reference, study, or teaching materials such as documents, articles, YouTube videos, pamphlets, books, social media materials, external Epicurean philosophy websites, or events such as seminars or symposiums
I see they some include/not include awareness/ attention / appreciation, so there is an active / virtuous activity to feel these pleasures.
Vatican Saying 17: "It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of."
This says that the "young man" can look to and learn from the "old man" about how to live happily.
Gratitude is pleasurable, and there is no need to label it "a virtue".
Why does Epicurus consider the absence of pain to be pleasure?
When pain is absent from the body, the appreciation of that experience is mentally enjoyable.
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And here is a full list of pleasures:
- enjoyable and pleasant bodily sensations (sights, sounds, tastes, touch, smell, etc.)
- the cessation of pain in the body (when pain is no longer present) (pain = sharp, piercing, burning, stinging, throbing, heavy)
- awareness that the body is healthy (no pain present)
- enjoyable and pleasant mental feelings and thoughts (joy, clarity, calm, strength, gratitude)
- the cessation of unpleasant emotions (fear, worry, anxiety)
- awareness of a clear mind free from unpleasant emotions (fear, worry, anxiety)
What speaks against the idea that intense sensual pleasures go beyond the limit of absence of pain? (my ideas: short-livedness, negative consequences of maintaining these pleasures e.g. numbness, hedonic treadmill, costs, ungratefulness, harming friendships and other values ( which are in core Pleasure) ...)
Instead of "short-livedness" and as long as the pleasure didn't cause unwanted/painful consequences, then one would simply feel a sense of gratitude and appreciation to life for having been able to experience that particular short-lived pleasure.
As for anything that feels like it is a "hedonic treadmill"...I would suggest slowing down and putting more attention on the specific experiences and to "open up the senses" to be fully present both in your mind and body.
To partially concur and partially expand on what has been said during this episode regarding the discussion of suicide as a sign that someone might have accepted the notion of fate, providence; in my experience, that is only rarely the case. Rather, suicide is the last line of defence, the ultimate boundary a person — a self, as opposed to a body — can set and enforce.
Julia thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I think that there are people on both sides of this saying that suicide is a choice and those that say suicide is not a choice because it seen as the only option.
When I attended a Buddhist group, there were two younger men who committed suicide a few years apart. I partially point to and blame the passive nature of the Buddhist philosophy and the constant preaching of the "acceptance of what is". (and of course Buddhists don't say much about seeking pleasure).
Yes as you say there are many cognitive distortions that need to be corrected, and also I think an important element is overcoming a sense of powerlessness and instead learning how to make change happen in one's life. By regaining a feeling of being effective and a sense of personal power to do what needs to be done to minimize pains AND increase pleasures, the suicidal thoughts can disappear. Life must have some sweetness in it, so regaining the power to experience pleasure is paramount.
"Nothing comes from nothing" = there are causes for what exists and there are conditions (natural laws) that everything is conditioned and governed by...cows don't pop out of thin air, because they depend on causes and conditions of the material world of matter.
This would be better as a cartoon, but here it goes anyway...lol. 
Person A: "I'm trying to find my big heavy winter coat and I just looked inside the guest room closet where I thought I put it at the end of last winter...but there was nothing in the closet!"
Person B: "You better go look again, because I'm sure that there is something in there."
Person A: "Oh yeah? Do you think it magically appeared?"
We then see Person A and Person B go and look inside the closet.
Person B: "See, look at all that dust in the bottom of the closet! I told you there was something in there!"
For all practical purposes "quantum foam" is still closer to "nothing".
This thread may be relevant...on Asimov's Relativity of Wrong:
This presents Lucretius' writing as intensifying rhetorical elements already present in the work of Epicurus:
Alleged incompatibility of Epicurus’ philosophy with rhetoric has led modern scholars to isolate rhetorical procedures in Lucretius’ De rerum natura and regard them as non-Epicurean, accessory features. This study of Lucretius’ rhetorical procedures is based on a wider understanding of the term rhetoric, not limited to the genre of oratory. In a fresh discussion of the questions of provenance and the role of the most important formal procedures of exposition in De rerum natura the author argues that instead of injecting rhetorical strategies from non-Epicurean sources, Lucretius in fact intensified rhetorical elements already present in the work of Epicurus. These elements are used for the purpose of explanation, and function as cognitive and mnemonic aids for the reader.
