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Bryan
Quote from Bryan
For example:
"ómnis énim Cólor omnī́nō mūtā́tur ín ómnīs"
...for every Color is altogether changed into every [color]
However, given Lucretius uses "mūtā́tur," the word "mutated" is a direct descendant:
...for every Color is altogether mutated into every [color]
Bryan, would it then be correct to say that: "when every color changes it is a completely different color" ?
Here is a conversation moved over from private discussion of translation work:
Raphael Raul said:
Bryan, as I mentioned at today's Epicurean Friends meeting, the translation reads very smoothly in English.
I does not have that structural stiffness that older translations do... Also, your color coding and placing the translation below the Latin, so both are visible together, allows the reader to see your choices clearly... excellent work!... Bravo!
Bryan said:
Quote from TauPhi
start learning Latin
Gratias tibi ago, TauPhi-- I really appreciate that!! I have greatly benefited from your encouragement over the years.
Quote from Raphael Raul
does not have that structural stiffness
Thank you, Raphael Raul-- it is a balance. I have also tried, where possible, to use English words that are etymologically related to the Latin. Sometimes, this requires using less common English words...
For example:
"ómnis énim Cólor omnī́nō mūtā́tur ín ómnīs"
...for every Color is altogether changed into every [color]
However, given Lucretius uses "mūtā́tur," the word "mutated" is a direct descendant:
...for every Color is altogether mutated into every [color]
Even though "mutated" carries some baggage in English, it pairs better with the Latin, and is technically not incorrect as "mutated" just means "undergoing alteration or change." There are many such cases!
Occasionally, I feel as though I have no choice but to use an uncommon word... I am not too happy that the first word of the entire work is "Ancestress."
Most translators just use "mother" -- but Lucretius consistently uses a different word that means mother, and "Génetrīx" clearly means "a female ancestor from whom a person is descended"
Don said:
Bryan Fantastic work! Very impressive.
Bryan said:
Quote from Don
work
Thank you, Don. As you know, the text of De Rerum Natura is very stable compared to our Greek sources. There are only a few locations where the two main manuscripts leave us with lacunas. We are on solid ground here... [ ] ...in contrast to the P.Hercs., which leave us drowning in a pool of papyrus dust.
This is my cheeky but sincere apology for what comes next: a standalone On Nature, Περὶ Φύσεως ΛΖ.
Don said:
Quote from Bryan
in contrast to the P.Hercs., which leave us drowning in a pool of papyrus dust.
Well put. That's a bit of nice wordsmithing there On a serious note, I remain excited about the opportunity and potential of the "read without unrolling" technology. I just hope whatever comes out of that is made publicly available.
Happy Birthday! m.dango
Happy Twentieth Everyone! 
Welcome to the forum! RoseQuartzAxolotl
In a recent Zoom meeting we presented this question for discussion:
"Do you think that the study of modern psychology should play a role in the lives of those who study Epicurean philosophy? Why or why not?" ...I would reframe and give more detail: "Should someone who studies Epicurean philosophy also include the study of modern psychology and implement evidence based "self-help" and positive psychology"?
Anyone with thoughts on this?
I will soon post more, but in the meantime please add your thoughts, thanks!
Don Regarding the formating of the Principal Doctrines, I just looked that up and found this (AI Google):
Modern translators and classical scholars determine where one doctrine ends and the next begins by evaluating four primary lines of evidence: grammatical shifts, thematic unity, historical manuscript markers, and 19th-century precedent. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Because ancient Greek text lacked clear punctuation and numbering, separating the continuous script into 40 distinct Kyriai Doxai relies on specific linguistic and contextual clues: [1, 2, 3]
1. Grammatical Transitions and Connecting Particles
Ancient Greek relies heavily on transitional particles to indicate a shift in thought. Translators watch for specific word cues that naturally reset a sentence: [1]
2. Micro-Spaces and Scribal Punctuation
While the manuscripts do not contain numbers, medieval scribes did leave subtle visual hints while copying the text: [1, 2]
3. Structural and Thematic Shifts
Translators look at the internal logic of the philosophy to find natural conceptual boundaries: [1, 2]
PD25. "If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles."
Here is my interpretation:
If on each occassion, instead of referring your actions to the natural pursuit of a life of happiness (as guided by pleasure and pain) if you turn too quickly to a simplistic standard such as skepticism (suspension of Judgment (Epoché)), when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with achieving the best life.
and Bryan
At the end of the Letter to Menoeceus we see:
"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being."
For me, it seems clear in my imagination that the gods are living in a state of joy.
There is lots of good discussion happening here. But I wanted to re-state what and why I titled this thread as: "Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia" but "Joy as the goal". Perhaps it would have been more clear if I had said "eudiamonia" instead of joy.
My primary intention is for us to get out of our heads the common mantra put forward by the internet search engines (and by many philosophy scholars) that the end-all, be-all goal of Epicureanism is ataraxia. It's like this: Let's say you have a goal of having an omlet for breakfast. But then you state: "My goal is eggs". And you ignore that there is something much bigger (the omlet) which contains cheese and all the veggies, plus milk (and butter and the use of a hot frying pan) that go into the omlet and the making of the omlet.
Don I am grateful to read your your very good and helpful input on this thread.
Matteng and wbernys I think it is important to consider that the teachings of Epicurus are not presented in a linear fashion - and you need to look at the whole picture.
We see in PD27, it says: "Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship."
This PD brings in the idea of "the blessedness of the complete life".
The primary ancient Greek word for the blessedness of a complete (fortunate) life is makarios (μακάριος), often used to describe the enviable state of the gods or the self-sustained blessedness of a life where all needs are met. Another crucial term for the enduring, flourishing "good life" is eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία), representing lasting happiness and prosperity.
At the end of the Letter to Menoeceus we see:
"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being."
For me, it seems clear in my imagination that the gods are living in a state of joy.
In my research today, I just found this first chapter on the Letter to Menoeceus, from a new book just published February 2026, by Solmeng-Jonas Hirschi. (Written as a scholarly/academic examination).
It looks like it will have special interest for those who are studying ancient Greek language. Bryan Don Eikadistes
This gives you 40 seconds of the opening of the Letter to Menoeceus:
It certainly illustrates something but i am not sure exactly what!
It shows how the gods have lots to see and do in their blessed and immortal realm. 
...and this one:
I just found this video, and I think it illustrates the Epicurean philosophical idea that the gods are blessed and immortal. PD01 "The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak." (See also Letter to Menoeceus, section 123)
Happy Belated Birthday Pacatus
Happy Birthday! Patrikios
Happy Twentieth Everyone!
I have not fully read the article above, but wanted to comment regarding any idea that Epicurean philosophy would be a better option for an individual interested in Christianity -- I think that anyone who is moving toward Christianity hasn't fully dealt with certain existential questions, and that they have certain psychological desires that they want to see fulfilled. The foremost desire would be for "immortality" since within Christian belief the soul does not die. Asking anyone with that desire to consider Epicureanism would not go over well. A given person in this situation won't accept something that they aren't wanting or ready to hear.
Unfortunately modernity and the larger system what we now exist within, directly or indirectly reinforces the idea of an immortal soul. Maybe the "desire for immortality" is a chicken-and-egg thing, that feeds back into itself - present in religion and present in masses and the mythos of civilization itself.
Welcome to the forum Aeneadum
The greatest motivation for quiting addictions is realizing that the pain outweighs the pleasure. Also, the strong desire to feel healthy again, and the strong desire to do what is necessary to maintain long-term health and put effort into that which enables one to enjoy a long life of health.
There is a thread (maybe more than one) regarding 12-step and Epicureanism. I'll see if I can track it down and post the link when I find it.
And the best way to do that is through regular teamwork with people who already agree
Maybe we need an Epicurean "Death Cafe"?
Except an "Epicurean death discussion" would end up being different than the objectives of a Death Cafe, because we would be exploring why "death is nothing to us".
According to the Death Cafe website, theirs is very open-ended:
A Death Cafe is a group directed discussion of death with no agenda, objectives or themes. It is a discussion group rather than a grief support or counselling session.
