Posts by Kalosyni

Happy Birthday! Buck23

Very interesting! ...

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Teaching is not my professional background. My job is that of being a compliance officer. And all my Stoic practice was mainly cultivated through adult discussion groups and mentoring adult students at the College of Stoic Philosophers. I wasn’t sure how to begin when it came to working with teenagers. So, I did what I do at work: I created a manual.

The manual had the traditional framework: there was a section on Logic, Physics, and Ethics; the four cardinal virtues: Practical Wisdom, Courage, Justice, and Temperance; the three disciplines: Judgment, Assent, and Action; and sections on Daily Practice and Community. On the first day, I opened the class with an introduction covering a high-level theory of Stoicism. Almost immediately, I could see their attention slipping. The concepts were too abstract, too distant from their day-to-day lives and concerns.

... So, I pivoted.

Quote from Cassius

We very much need articles addressing the nature of "good manners" both in general and here on the forum. We know that Epicurus did not hesitate to use mocking wordss against his philosophical enemies, and we know that he strongly advised "frank speech" in ways that are direct but constructive.

I don't think that the use of mocking words against philosophical enemies is constructive, and it goes against suavity. (I like to think that Diogene Laertius got that aspect of Epicurus wrong).

Also....VS79. The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another.

This is interesting regarding the word "suavity" (from Google):

The shift from describing sensory or spiritual sweetness to describing human manners occurred gradually between the late 16th century and the mid-18th century, solidifying into its modern definition by the early 19th century.

The evolution happened in distinct stages, heavily influenced by changing social structures and the French language.

1. The Transition Stage (Late 1500s–1600s)

During the Renaissance, writers began applying the concept of "sweetness" metaphors to human speech and interactions. Rather than just describing heaven, a person’s voice or disposition could have a pleasing, gentle quality.

• 1640s: The derivative word suaviloquy emerged, meaning "sweetness of speech". At this stage, the word still implied a natural, gentle disposition rather than calculated, sophisticated social etiquette.

2. The Influence of French Court Culture (Late 1600s–1700s)

The true catalyst for the modern meaning was the French word suavité. In the French court, suavité evolved to mean a refined, polished, and agreeable social presence. As English high society began obsessively mimicking French etiquette—spearheaded by figures like Philip Stanhope, the 4th Earl of Chesterfield, who popularized the concept of modern etiquette in the mid-1700s—the English definition of "suavity" shifted from internal kindness to external behavior.

3. The Solidification of "Suavity of Manners" (Late 1700s–1815)

By the late 18th century, the exact phrase "suavity of manners" became a standard idiom in the English language to describe a gentleman or lady who possessed sophisticated, worldly, and smooth social graces.

• 1780s–1800s: Historical biographies and legal records from the late Georgian era routinely praised notable figures, politicians, and educators for their "suavity of manners" to denote high breeding and an ability to charm others in public life.
• 1815: Lexicographers note that by this year, the modern definition of "suave" and "suavity"—meaning smooth or urbanely agreeable—became established as a meaning, eclipsing the original "sweetness" definition.

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The word "suavity" underwent a linguistic process known as semantic pejoration—where a positive word gradually takes on negative, condescending, or untrustworthy connotations.

A shift to a negative description occurred during the mid-to-late 19th century, directly following its peak as a compliment in Victorian high society.

The transition from a genuine virtue to a red flag happened in two distinct phases:

1. The Victorian Backlash (1850s–1880s)

By the middle of the 19th century, the industrial revolution had given rise to a massive new middle class. To climb the social ladder, people heavily studied etiquette books to mimic the "suavity of manners" used by the aristocracy.

Because anyone could now memorize these smooth manners, society began to view extreme suavity with suspicion. Writers, social critics, and the public realized that a highly polished exterior could easily be a mask for deception, greed, or manipulation.

• The "Slick" Professional: During this era, novelists began attributing "suavity" to villains, hypocritical politicians, untrustworthy lawyers, and swindlers to emphasize how their charm was being used to lower their victims' guard.
• The "Bland" Critic: By 1880, dictionary definitions began incorporating terms like "blandly agreeable" to describe suavity. In the Victorian lexicon, "blandness" implied a total lack of spine, authentic character, or moral conviction.

2. The 20th-Century Link to Insincerity (1900s–Present)

By the early 20th century, the modern negative nuance was completely cemented. Today, labeling someone's behavior as "suavity" or calling a man "suave" is often a double-edged sword or a backhanded compliment. It subtly implies:

• Superficiality: The charm is artificial, practiced, and lacks genuine warmth or depth.
• Calculated Intent: The smooth behavior is being deployed intentionally to get something—whether it is a salesman closing a deal, a politician hunting for votes, or a seducer breaking hearts.
• Unctuousness: Much like the word oily or slick, it suggests a personality that is a little too perfect, making it feel slimy and inherently untrustworthy.

Quote from Kalosyni

We've talked about creating "meaning" in the past (over in other threads...I'll need to see where those are and add links.

There is a whole sub-form on "meaning"...

Answering the "Quest For Meaning" In Epicurean Terms

This thread can be used to discuss the similarities and differences between modern ideas of creating well-being and joy, vs. Epicurean philosophical ideas.

The following is from a search using Google:

A life of well-being and joy is built on a balance of physical health, meaningful connections, and personal fulfillment. Rather than a single path, it combines daily habits and long-term practices that nourish your mind, body, and spirit.

Here is a list of the foundational elements that have been found to lead to lasting joy according to modern psychology:

--- Mind & Emotion

• Cultivate Gratitude: Actively appreciating the present helps shift your focus from what you lack to what you already possess.
• Practice Mindfulness: Grounding yourself in the "now" prevents anxiety about the past or future, and lets you savor everyday pleasures.
• Embrace Continuous Learning: Expanding your knowledge base or learning a new hobby stimulates the brain and provides deep fulfillment.
• Find a Sense of Purpose: Engaging in work or hobbies that give your life meaning, or pursuing your passions, drives intrinsic happiness.

--- Connection & Meaning

• Nurture Relationships: Building close bonds with friends, family, and a support network gives you a sense of belonging and buffers against stress.
• Help Others: Engaging in community service or simply being kind and motivating others increases your own happiness and empathy.

--- Health & Body

• Prioritize Rest and Sleep: Allowing your body and mind to recharge is essential for emotional regulation, stress reduction, and overall wellness.
• Stay Physically Active: Moving your body—whether through structured exercise or simply spending time walking in nature—releases endorphins that elevate mood.
• Nourish Your Body: Fueling yourself with healthy, balanced foods provides sustained energy and supports mental health.

--- Lifestyle & Environment

• Establish Financial Peace: Creating a financial plan and budget reduces long-term anxiety and provides security.
• Engage in the Arts and Play: Participating in creative outlets or simply experiencing arts, culture, and play boosts contentment and helps process emotions.
• Spend Time in Nature: Getting fresh air and stepping outside has been proven by psychologists to increase happiness and lower stress.

***********************

Epicurean philosophy is much more abstract. It does bring forward the importance of friendship. But it allows each person to decide for themselves what brings pleasure.

We've talked about creating "meaning" in the past (over in other threads...I'll need to see where those are and add links.

Quote from TauPhi

Some people are perfectly fine with sacrificing the struggle of their own creativity because AI can write/paint/sing/play faster and better. Those people don't seem to see the point in slow betterment of their limited human potential since they have been presented with the opportunity of godlike simulacrum. Why to struggle with inferior human quality when you can effortlessly obtain godlike results?

Two interesting ideas: calling what AI produces as "godlike" and "godlike simulacrum". I hadn't thought of it that way, nor do I now. I simply see it as an interesting phenomenon, some of which I occassionally find is good/pleasing to me.

Deeper questions that each person may answer differently for themselves: How does AI creativity make you feel? Does using AI cause bad (or painful) consequences or does it sometimes bring pleasure? Is there such a thing as AI that is "done well"? What about wider consequences for the environment and society? And now we are seeing everyone say "not in my backyard" about data centers.

Also, consider this: that there is a large amount of purely human-made art that is "bad" art -- but who decides what is "bad" art? For myself I have two categories: 1) "interesting" art, of a type that is "a curiosity" (and that which I personally consider "bad" and also which makes me feel unpleasant emotions (I'm using the word "interesting" as sarcasm here). 2) "good" art, of a type that I find is skillfully rendered according to my own personal standards and it also gives me pleasure to experience it (and of course this is very subjective).

Happy Birthday! Stas and phscha

From Lucretius, 3-228 to 2-323:

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Heat prevails in the mind when the creature is enraged, grows hot, and fire sparkles from its glowing eyes. Much vapor is cold, and the companion of fear, it excites horror in the body, and shakes the limbs; but air is of a calm and mild quality, it resides in a quiet breast, and a serene countenance. But those have most heat whose hearts are fierce, and whose angry mind are soon inflamed into passion. of this sort, in the first place, is the distracted Fury of lions, who, roaring, often burst their very breast, and are unable to contain the torrent of Rage that swells within. The cold temperature of the deer has more of vapor, and sooner incites a chillness in the limbs,which causes a trembling motion through the whole body. But the nature of the ox consists more of soft air, nor does the smoky firebrand of anger (that spreads a shade of black darkness over the mind) too much inflame him, nor is he stupefied by the darts of chilling fear, but his nature is placed between both, between the fierce lion and the deer."

The mind of man is formed of the same principles; though the discipline of philosophy may polish and correct some, yet it leaves behind the marks of the original nature of the mind, nor are we to think that the seeds of vice can be wholly rooted out. One man, we see, runs more rashly into passion, another is more disposed to fear, and a third is apt to be more merciful than just; It is impossible but the various tempers of mankind, and actions that follow them, must differ in many other instances, the reasons of which are at present out of my power to explain; nor can I find words to express that variety of figures by which the seeds are distinguished, and from which this variety of disposition is produced. This, however, may justly be asserted on this occasion: that the traces of original nature which cannot be corrected by the rules of reason are so very small that nothing hinders us from leading a life worthy of the Gods.

And for a comparison, this is an interesting article:

From Grumpy Old Man to "Irritable Male Syndrome"

What some call "irritable male syndrome" may be better understood as a meaningful response to stress, loss, aging, or unmet needs.

www.psychologytoday.com

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One reality often overlooked in conversations about men’s mental health is this: Many men are raised with the implicit understanding that anger is the one culturally acceptable emotion they’re allowed to express. Sadness, fear, vulnerability, and grief are often discouraged—or worse, mocked. It should come as no surprise, then, that when life becomes heavier, anger and irritability are frequently the emotional languages men bring with them into later adulthood.

Fatigue, low mood, and reduced tolerance for stress can be understood not as signs of pathology, but as natural responses to cumulative stress, shifting roles, physical changes, and the felt decline of vital energy. Importantly, irritability is not the exclusive domain of older men; it appears across genders, cultures, and developmental stages.

...

Rather than asking whether IMS is a real condition, a more productive question might be: What are these experiences trying to tell us?

Instead of treating irritability, fatigue, and low stress tolerance as symptoms to be eradicated, we might view them as signals—messages from a system that deserves attention rather than correction. Aging, after all, is not a disorder. It is a developmental stage, complete with its own challenges, losses, and opportunities for meaning.

Lucretius talks about the nature of the soul in Book III, starting at line 231:

EpicureanFriends Side-By-Side Lucretius

Multi-column side-by-side Lucretius text comparison tool featuring Munro, Bailey, Dunster, and Condensed editions.

handbook.epicureanfriends.com

This thread is to cross-reference the following blog, and provide a place for further discussion:

Blog Article

The Nature of the Soul According to Epicurus

The Nature of the Soul According to Epicurus

Blog article by Kalosyni (based on material created for the Epicurean Ethics study group)

1. Introduction and Overview: Ancient Greek Thought on the Soul

The concept of the soul occupied a central place in ancient Greek philosophy. The Greek word for soul, ψυχή (psychē), referred not merely to a religious or spiritual entity but to the principle of life itself—the source of thought, sensation, emotion, and vitality.

Philosophers disagreed profoundly…

Kalosyni

June 6, 2026 at 9:01 AM

celestineyes22 Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Don

Within "pleasure" there is tranquility, blessedness, painlessness, joy, delight, happiness. They're all related, because "the feelings are two." To give the "camp" that emphasizes the absence or removal of pain their due, Epicurus does teach us to work to remove the pain of fear of gods, death; remove the pain from empty desires.

Don Your post got me thinking...perhaps we need to consider that there are "four feelings"...

1. Feelings of mental pleasure

2. Feelings of mental pain

3. Feelings of bodily pleasure

4. Feelings of bodily pain

So, if you remove mental pains, it doesn't necessarily add in bodily pleasure. Just like if you add in bodily pleasure, it doesn't necessary remove mental pains.

Quote from Cassius

That's what the "war of words" with rest of the world is all about.

There are past ancient "wars of words", and there are current modern "wars of words".

I really think that in modern times pleasure is much more tied to "happiness" and "well-being", where as in ancient times "well-being" was thought to be tied solely to being virtuous.

One specific "war of words" which still continues from ancient times into current times, is with the word "pleasure"...as when you say the word "on the street" it seems to automatically point to excess and debauchery without regard for the consequences. This is one reason why I don't like including the word without a complete explanation of what is meant by it (according to Epicureans).

Quote from Cassius

The test is: "How often and how clearly and how strongly does the discussion mention pleasure?"

Cassius I wonder if you somehow conceive of happiness being an unpleasant state??

Quote from Cassius

Same question - must one be totally free of mental suffering in order to be happy?

Thanks for asking...

No, but free from unnecessary mental suffering.

Quote from Cassius

In regard to "free from suffering" that does not mean totally free, right, because we have the example of Epicurus bring happy on his last days while still under great pain?

I just now added in the word "mental"...so now it reads: free from mental suffering.

This thread is for cross-referencing and further discussion on the blog article:

Blog Article

Eudaimonia and Makariotēs in the Letter to Menoeceus

Eudaimonia and Makariotēs in the Letter to Menoeceus

Blog article by Kalosyni - The following is based on material developed for the Epicurean Ethics study group

1.1 Eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία): Happiness and Well-being

Among the surviving writings of Epicurus, the Letter to Menoeceus provides a summary of his ethical philosophy. At the heart of the letter stands the Greek word eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία), commonly translated as "happiness," "well-being," or "human flourishing." The Greek term eudaimonia…

Kalosyni

May 30, 2026 at 4:11 PM

This thread is to cross-reference and provide a place for discussion of the following blog article:

Blog Article

On Epicurean Text Study and Contemplation

On Epicurean Text Study and Contemplation

Blog article by Kalosyni
(The following is based on material previously given out for an Epicurean Ethics study group.)

When studying Epicurean philosophy, it is important for dedicated students of Epicurus to approach the study of ethics in a manner that facilitates an accurate understanding of what the key texts truly say. At the same time, a core goal is to seek not only intellectual understanding but also a personal and practical application of the…

Kalosyni

May 24, 2026 at 1:40 PM

Don thank you for your tips and advice regarding this, and you gave some helpful links for further research.

Quote from Don

This word is connected to αταραξία (ataraxia)

When investigating the word ταράττεσθαι (tarattesthai), I wanted to get as far away as possible from the word ataraxia. Ataraxia says nothing about what is to be removed or avoided.

Apologies, but found this to be of interest... (and after this I will refrain from further posting using AI translation).

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Query: how many times is the word αταραξία found in the text of the Letter to Menoeceus ?

Google AI response:

The word αταραξία (specifically in its accusative form, ἀταραξίαν) appears exactly one time in the original Greek text of Epicurus's Letter to Menoeceus. [1]

Where It Appears

The single occurrence is found in Section 128 of the text: [1, 2]

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"...ἐπὶ τὴν τοῦ σώματος ὑγίειαν καὶ τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ἀταραξίαν, ἐπεὶ τοῦτο τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν ἐστι τέλος." [1]

(...to the health of the body and the ataraxia [imperturbability] of the soul, since this is the goal of a blessed life.) [1, 2]

Why Is It Only Used Once?

It is a common misconception that the word repeats constantly implying that ataraxia is the central pillar of Epicurean philosophy. However, Epicurus preferred to describe the concept of tranquility using descriptions of what is absent rather than repeating the abstract noun itself: [1, 2, 3, 4]

• Verbal Descriptions: He frequently writes about "not suffering pain" or "not being alarmed". For instance, immediately following his single use of ataraxia, he uses the phrase "ὅπως μήτε ἀλγῶμεν μήτε ταρβῶμεν" ("so that we may neither suffer pain nor feel fear"). [1]
• Alternative Terms: He often relies on words like ἀπορία (lack of physical pain) or shifts to general discussions of ἡδονή (pleasure), defining it purely as the baseline state when all bodily and mental distress is cleared away. [1, 2, 3]

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