Posts by Kalosyni

The differences are explained by Diogenes the Oinoandian on his wall inscription, (fragment 32)

"If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end."

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For Epicureans, pleasure is both the beginning (the guide together through prudent reasoning as to why not every pleasure is chosen and not every pain is avoided) ...and the telos.

Here are some articles about pleasure and well-being when engaing in hobbies:

10 Tips for Choosing the Perfect Hobby

Ask yourself these ten questions to find the most fulfilling hobby for you.

www.psychologytoday.com

And here is a list for evaluating usefulness and pleasure:

Evaluating a hobby involves assessing both its functional benefits (usefulness) and its emotional rewards (pleasure) through distinct practical and psychological standards.

Criteria for Evaluating Usefulness

• Skill acquisition: Measures whether the hobby teaches you a new ability, improves your memory, or expands your knowledge base.
• Health impact: Tracks improvements in your physical fitness, coordination, or overall mental wellness.
• Tangible output: Assesses the physical items created, the practical problems solved, or the money saved through self-provision.
• Social contribution: Evaluates how the activity helps you build community ties, bond with others, or share value with friends and family.

Criteria for Evaluating Pleasure

• Flow and immersion: Measures how easily you achieve deep focus and lose track of time while doing the activity.
• Stress relief: Evaluates how effectively the activity calms your mind, lowers anxiety, and helps you unwind after a long day.
• Intrinsic joy: Assesses the pure, unfiltered happiness or excitement the activity brings you without needing an external reward.
• Sense of autonomy: Tracks the feeling of freedom and personal control you experience because you choose to do the activity purely for yourself.

Quote from Cassius

when we evaluate whether to take an action, we often make unstated presumptions about the likelihood of obtaining the result. One person may think that a choice to pursue a particular pleasure is absurd because it is very difficult or impossible or highly risky for them.

The accessment of the likelihood of obtaining a specific good result is different than the likelihood of an accessment of something really bad resulting as a consequence.

There are certain activities that have a higher likelihood of resulting in bad consequences. If you choose a career as a police officer or firefighter, those have a higher risk probability than becoming an office manager.

Other activities to assess: ---> whether or not to get married----->if one or both people have a "high neuroticism" personality trait, then there will be a high probability for unhappiness or divorce.

Patrikios that particular article seems to be saying that some people have a hard time finishing projects because they "lose interest" but actually they are experiencing a diminished sense of novelty. And the solution to this problem is to re-direct the novelty seeking back into the sustained work by looking for the uncertainty/unpredictability aspects or bringing in other people to help work on the project.

It looks like there is some overlap between Epicurus and Aristotle. As far as the third category (of Aristotle), that is addressed by Epicurus in Letter to Menoeceus which recommends to practice together with others.

The following article covers Aristotle's take:

Aristotle On the 3 Types of Friendship (and How Each Enriches Life) | Philosophy Break

There is not one type of friendship, Aristotle argues, but three. The highest type – the friendship of virtue – contributes most to our pursuit of the good…

philosophybreak.com

Here is a link to John Dryden's translation, though it only has a few sections. (He may not have translated the entire Lucretius text, or perhaps there isn't a full translation online).

The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Works of John Dryden vol 12, by Walter Scott,.

Wikipedia entry about John Dryden.

Lately I've been thinking about how modern life ramps ups the novelty seeking drive. From a young age, our brains have been wired by complexities just like rats in cage with lots of toys and tunnels to run through. On one end of the spectrum boredom (and other associated feelings) can come up when life is lacking in novelty, but on the other end of the spectrum too much novelty seeking can create unpleasant consequences. And each person needs to find the level that feels good and works for them.

Here are some good articles on the subject (a brief excerpt follow each article link):

The Magic of Novelty: Why It Matters and How to Embrace It

Are you bored with your life? When was the last time you did something out of your daily routine? As adults, we can sometimes forget there is so much we…

www.psychologytoday.com

Quote

• Having novelty in your life can boost your memory and creativity.
• Novelty can increase your sense of happiness.
• Small, intentional changes can make a difference.

Have you ever found yourself stuck in a rut, going through the motions of the same daily routine? Maybe it's the way you've set up your life. It’s comforting, in a way—you know what to expect, and the familiarity can be soothing. Unpredictability can be uncomfortable, and even create some or a lot of anxiety. The same ole, same ole feels a lot safer. But too much predictability can leave us feeling uninspired, restless, or even stuck. Enter novelty: the secret sauce to keeping life vibrant and meaningful. Hang on—before you dismiss this idea, there are benefits to novelty that you may not have thought about. Keep an open mind.

Neuroscience Of Novelty: Why Your Brain Chases New | MindLAB

Novelty fires dopamine on prediction error — before any reward arrives. A neuroscientist explains why your brain chases new, and how to redirect it.

mindlabneuroscience.com

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Novelty triggers dopamine release from the ventral tegmental area before any reward is delivered. The brain is not responding to what happened: it is responding to what might happen. Wolfram Schultz’s landmark research at the University of Fribourg established that dopamine neurons fire at the moment of surprise, not the moment of gratification, with peak signaling occurring when prediction error, the gap between what was expected and what arrived, is largest. That anticipatory signal is powerful, indiscriminate, and the biological basis of both creative innovation and compulsive restlessness. In my practice, I consistently observe a paradox: the same dopamine-driven circuit that makes someone an exceptional innovator also makes sustained commitment feel neurologically aversive. The brain that chases novelty is not broken. The question is whether you are directing the circuit or it is directing you.

The following is somewhat related (but a word of caution...as it is about lab rats).

I taught rats to drive a car, and it may help us lead happier lives

Teaching rats to drive a tiny car around a laboratory taught scientists a lot about the benefits of anticipating the joy brought by the things we love.

www.bbc.com

Quote

While we can't directly ask rats whether they like to drive, we devised a behavioural test to assess their motivation to drive. This time, instead of only giving rats the option of driving to the Froot Loop tree, they could also make a shorter journey on foot – or paw, in this case.

Surprisingly, two of the three rats chose to take the less efficient path of turning away from the reward and running to the car to drive to their Froot Loop destination. This response suggests that the rats enjoy both the journey and the rewarding destination.

Happy Twentieth Everyone!

Quote from Patrikios

to see how Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’

Patrikios Within Epicurean philosophy there is the removal of fears of gods and death, and removing anxiety regarding what to choose and what to avoid which is steering toward choosing for desired results, ...etc. ---> From Epicurus' PD's, VS's, and and letters Epicurus wrote ---> and presented as rough guidelines without detailed explanation of specific practices.

Another thing to consider is each person's experiences, circumstances, and disposition is unique, and so there isn't a one-size-fits-all.

Also modern life is different from ancient Greece, and has a high level of mental and sensory stimulation, and also novelty, built into it. A person will be needing the "correct" level of stimulation and novelty, based on their own unique needs.

As I see it, in addition to the worldview philosophy of Epicurus (and because of our modern experience of the world), we need to add in modern psychology based on scientific research, into our "medicine for the mind".

Just in case you were wondering if there has been an increase in earthquakes lately, this has very good explanations, from a modern understanding of earthquakes.

Is the world experiencing more earthquakes now than before?

Al Jazeera examines a decade of earthquake data to see how 2026 compares and explains how and where earthquakes strike.

www.aljazeera.com

(The Letter to Pythocles, section 105 has Epicurus' hypotheses about earthquakes -- we have much more knowledge now, but unfortunately are still unable to predict when an earthquake will occur).

We had a very good discussion in last night's Zoom on this topic - "completeness of pleasure". It would be great if Bryan  Martin  Godfrey  kochiekoch  Cassius could add important comments that were said during last night, to this thread. After hearing Bryan says something, I brought up Maslow's heirarchy of needs which then led to my commenting that perhaps Epicurus had reached a sense of fulfilling his "self-actualization" through his study of physics. And this highlights the importance of mental pleasures.

Okay, thanks for letting me know. That is something I want to continue to work on. Cassius' self-paced guide linked above may be much more in depth and covering all aspects, so hope that is of interest.

I added this to the second image: "What is pleasurable is defined as any feeling which is free from pain, since through philosophical reasoning we come to see that there is no neutral feeling state that exists. Types of pleasure range from removal of pain, to replenishment, and to variations of enjoyable sensations."

And I need to add mental pleasures to this list as well.

I just made a revised version:

EpicuriousDavid You wrote: "I was brought to the forum specifically by searching for 'Epicurus online class', your website showed up and looked very interesting."

I am curious to know what forum pages your early search took you to? (if you still have that original search result with link).

btw...Cassius has put together this self-study guide:

Quote from Titus

Without context, "simplicity" is an empty word, but generally it is understood as a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible", effectively establishing a pleasure-pain calculus. It's about saving resources (financial/physical/mental etc.).

Titus Perhaps you are creating a calculus that combines a number of goals? ...easy to do, plain, frugal ...and... pleasurable and without bad consequences?

Also, sometimes doing "as little as possible" will bring bad consequences.

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simplicity /sĭm-plĭs′ĭ-tē/

noun

1. The property, condition, or quality of being simple or uncombined.
2. Absence of luxury or showiness; plainness.
3. Absence of affectation or pretense.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

simple /sĭm′pəl/

adjective

1. Having few parts or features; not complicated or elaborate.

   "a house with a simple floor plan."

2. Easy to understand, do, or carry out: synonym: easy.

   "a simple set of instructions; a simple chore."

   Similar: easy

3. Having or composed of only one thing, element, or part.

   "a simple chemical substance."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

And to highlight....A pleasurable life is a life of good spirits and well-being.

Here is a quick visual which presents an overview, and this will need a bit further development with text sources added to back up the points. I've oriented this into "actionable" aspects which is a simplified o overview for those who are new to the study of Epicurean philosophy.

As for point number 3, in ancient times this would have been seen as very important. Now in modern times our social connects are fragmented and undeveloped.

I'm using the "Default Woltlab Style (Dark and Light)" theme which is different than the "Inspire" theme, because the drop-down menu functions better on my android tablet. I notice that the layout of the announcement box (Latest Lucretius Today Podcast) is slightly compressed at the top of the home page.

We've sent out the Zoom link for tomorrow, looking to seeing you there!