New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius
Lucretius talks about the nature of the soul in Book III, starting at line 231:
This thread is to cross-reference the following blog, and provide a place for further discussion:
celestineyes22 Welcome to the forum!
Within "pleasure" there is tranquility, blessedness, painlessness, joy, delight, happiness. They're all related, because "the feelings are two." To give the "camp" that emphasizes the absence or removal of pain their due, Epicurus does teach us to work to remove the pain of fear of gods, death; remove the pain from empty desires.
Don Your post got me thinking...perhaps we need to consider that there are "four feelings"...
1. Feelings of mental pleasure
2. Feelings of mental pain
3. Feelings of bodily pleasure
4. Feelings of bodily pain
So, if you remove mental pains, it doesn't necessarily add in bodily pleasure. Just like if you add in bodily pleasure, it doesn't necessary remove mental pains.
That's what the "war of words" with rest of the world is all about.
There are past ancient "wars of words", and there are current modern "wars of words".
I really think that in modern times pleasure is much more tied to "happiness" and "well-being", where as in ancient times "well-being" was thought to be tied solely to being virtuous.
One specific "war of words" which still continues from ancient times into current times, is with the word "pleasure"...as when you say the word "on the street" it seems to automatically point to excess and debauchery without regard for the consequences. This is one reason why I don't like including the word without a complete explanation of what is meant by it (according to Epicureans).
The test is: "How often and how clearly and how strongly does the discussion mention pleasure?"
Cassius I wonder if you somehow conceive of happiness being an unpleasant state??
Same question - must one be totally free of mental suffering in order to be happy?
Thanks for asking...
No, but free from unnecessary mental suffering.
In regard to "free from suffering" that does not mean totally free, right, because we have the example of Epicurus bring happy on his last days while still under great pain?
I just now added in the word "mental"...so now it reads: free from mental suffering.
This thread is for cross-referencing and further discussion on the blog article:
This thread is to cross-reference and provide a place for discussion of the following blog article:
Don thank you for your tips and advice regarding this, and you gave some helpful links for further research.
This word is connected to αταραξία (ataraxia)
When investigating the word ταράττεσθαι (tarattesthai), I wanted to get as far away as possible from the word ataraxia. Ataraxia says nothing about what is to be removed or avoided.
Apologies, but found this to be of interest... (and after this I will refrain from further posting using AI translation).
Query: how many times is the word αταραξία found in the text of the Letter to Menoeceus ?
Google AI response:
The word αταραξία (specifically in its accusative form, ἀταραξίαν) appears exactly one time in the original Greek text of Epicurus's Letter to Menoeceus. [1]
Where It Appears
The single occurrence is found in Section 128 of the text: [1, 2]
Why Is It Only Used Once?
It is a common misconception that the word repeats constantly implying that ataraxia is the central pillar of Epicurean philosophy. However, Epicurus preferred to describe the concept of tranquility using descriptions of what is absent rather than repeating the abstract noun itself: [1, 2, 3, 4]
- Verbal Descriptions: He frequently writes about "not suffering pain" or "not being alarmed". For instance, immediately following his single use of ataraxia, he uses the phrase "ὅπως μήτε ἀλγῶμεν μήτε ταρβῶμεν" ("so that we may neither suffer pain nor feel fear"). [1]
- Alternative Terms: He often relies on words like ἀπορία (lack of physical pain) or shifts to general discussions of ἡδονή (pleasure), defining it purely as the baseline state when all bodily and mental distress is cleared away. [1, 2, 3]
I know there are mixed feelings for some regarding the use of AI, but I have just discovered that it is quite easy to use Google AI to translate ancient Greek words (but of course we know that errors may surface).
I was working on a particular section of the Letter to Menoeceus, and found this on one of the words...
query: translate into english from ancient greek the following word: ταράττεσθαι
AI response:
The Ancient Greek verb ταράττεσθαι (tarattesthai) translates to "to be troubled," "to be disturbed," "to be agitated," or "to be thrown into confusion." [1, 2]
It is the present passive/middle infinitive of tarassō (ταράσσω), which literally means to stir up or agitate liquids (like muddying water) and metaphorically refers to unsettling the mind or emotions. [1]
And then I queried (just for fun and comparison):
is this word used in the bible ?
AI response:
Yes, the underlying verb ταράσσω (tarassō) is used in the New Testament.
While the exact grammatical form ταράττεσθαι (the present passive infinitive) does not explicitly appear in the finalized textual tradition of the New Testament, other inflected variations of the exact same passive verb are used in some of the Bible's most famous passages to describe deep emotional or spiritual distress. [1]
Notable New Testament Uses
In the New Testament, the verb describes profound emotional turmoil, fear, or a troubled mind: [1]
- Jesus' Deep Emotion: When Jesus is deeply moved by the death of Lazarus in John 11:33, the text says he "troubled himself" (ἐτάραξεν ἑαυτόν). Later, facing his impending crucifixion in John 12:27, he cries, "Now my soul is troubled" (ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται).
- Comforting the Disciples: In John 14:1, Jesus delivers his famous reassurance: "Do not let your hearts be troubled" (μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία)—which is the imperative passive form of the exact same word.
- The Disciples' Terror: When the disciples see Jesus walking on water in Matthew 14:26, the text notes they "were terrified" (ἐταράχθησαν). [1, 2]
Welcome to the forum h.nur beyaz erkizan
Bryan
Quote from Bryan
For example:
"ómnis énim Cólor omnī́nō mūtā́tur ín ómnīs"
...for every Color is altogether changed into every [color]
However, given Lucretius uses "mūtā́tur," the word "mutated" is a direct descendant:
...for every Color is altogether mutated into every [color]
Bryan, would it then be correct to say that: "when every color changes it is a completely different color" ?
Here is a conversation moved over from private discussion of translation work:
Raphael Raul said:
Bryan, as I mentioned at today's Epicurean Friends meeting, the translation reads very smoothly in English.
I does not have that structural stiffness that older translations do... Also, your color coding and placing the translation below the Latin, so both are visible together, allows the reader to see your choices clearly... excellent work!... Bravo!
Bryan said:
Quote from TauPhi
start learning Latin
Gratias tibi ago, TauPhi-- I really appreciate that!! I have greatly benefited from your encouragement over the years.
Quote from Raphael Raul
does not have that structural stiffness
Thank you, Raphael Raul-- it is a balance. I have also tried, where possible, to use English words that are etymologically related to the Latin. Sometimes, this requires using less common English words...
For example:
"ómnis énim Cólor omnī́nō mūtā́tur ín ómnīs"
...for every Color is altogether changed into every [color]
However, given Lucretius uses "mūtā́tur," the word "mutated" is a direct descendant:
...for every Color is altogether mutated into every [color]
Even though "mutated" carries some baggage in English, it pairs better with the Latin, and is technically not incorrect as "mutated" just means "undergoing alteration or change." There are many such cases!
Occasionally, I feel as though I have no choice but to use an uncommon word... I am not too happy that the first word of the entire work is "Ancestress."
Most translators just use "mother" -- but Lucretius consistently uses a different word that means mother, and "Génetrīx" clearly means "a female ancestor from whom a person is descended"
Don said:
Bryan Fantastic work! Very impressive.
Bryan said:
Quote from Don
work
Thank you, Don. As you know, the text of De Rerum Natura is very stable compared to our Greek sources. There are only a few locations where the two main manuscripts leave us with lacunas. We are on solid ground here... [ ] ...in contrast to the P.Hercs., which leave us drowning in a pool of papyrus dust.
This is my cheeky but sincere apology for what comes next: a standalone On Nature, Περὶ Φύσεως ΛΖ.
Don said:
Quote from Bryan
in contrast to the P.Hercs., which leave us drowning in a pool of papyrus dust.
Well put. That's a bit of nice wordsmithing there On a serious note, I remain excited about the opportunity and potential of the "read without unrolling" technology. I just hope whatever comes out of that is made publicly available.
Happy Birthday! m.dango
Happy Twentieth Everyone!
Welcome to the forum! RoseQuartzAxolotl
In a recent Zoom meeting we presented this question for discussion:
"Do you think that the study of modern psychology should play a role in the lives of those who study Epicurean philosophy? Why or why not?" ...I would reframe and give more detail: "Should someone who studies Epicurean philosophy also include the study of modern psychology and implement evidence based "self-help" and positive psychology"?
Anyone with thoughts on this?
I will soon post more, but in the meantime please add your thoughts, thanks!
Don Regarding the formating of the Principal Doctrines, I just looked that up and found this (AI Google):
Modern translators and classical scholars determine where one doctrine ends and the next begins by evaluating four primary lines of evidence: grammatical shifts, thematic unity, historical manuscript markers, and 19th-century precedent. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Because ancient Greek text lacked clear punctuation and numbering, separating the continuous script into 40 distinct Kyriai Doxai relies on specific linguistic and contextual clues: [1, 2, 3]
1. Grammatical Transitions and Connecting Particles
Ancient Greek relies heavily on transitional particles to indicate a shift in thought. Translators watch for specific word cues that naturally reset a sentence: [1]
2. Micro-Spaces and Scribal Punctuation
While the manuscripts do not contain numbers, medieval scribes did leave subtle visual hints while copying the text: [1, 2]
3. Structural and Thematic Shifts
Translators look at the internal logic of the philosophy to find natural conceptual boundaries: [1, 2]
