Posts by Kalosyni

fyi ... I found this old thread:

Post

Epicurean Philosophy vs. Objectivism (Ayn Rand)

At the moment there is no subforum devoted to this, so here's a thread with a very pointed starting point:

Ayn Rand / Objectivism	Epicurus
Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips, and guns— or dollars. Take your choice— there is no other— and your time is running out. (Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged)	And for

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Cassius

March 1, 2021 at 9:08 AM

Quote from SillyApe

what else can I and other people do to deal with anger, resentment, and especially anxiety in scenarios like this?

Whether or not (and why) western society is currently having an uptick of increasing criminal violent behavior, is hard to know. Consider that perhaps anger and resentment are a kind of fuel for those who are the perpetrators of crime and violence, and which causes them to justify their actions. But those who cause violence are are not happy people. And there are multifaceted causes that fuel the problem of violent crimes.

If things seem too unsafe, then we (as students of the philosophy of Epicurus) need to take heed and make safer choices such as not riding public transportation, or not going to crowded venues in cities.

And perhaps consider moving to a small town or rural area.

Quote from Don

The trick or treating and parties are just having fun, so if they provide pleasure with a minimum of pain, why not participate in the popular civic festival.

It is up to each person to decide if and how to engage with popular modern day festivals... however... I want people to open their eyes and realize that they are participating in something that in many aspects elevates ideas that insist that there is a spirit that survives death and that there are spirits around that "enjoy causing pain and trouble for others". In many aspects the "dark spirit of Halloween" is about a disassociated aspect of human beings and their subconconsciously supressed potential for violence. Also, it is not taking into account that violent acts are often done by psychotic people who have uncontrolled schizophrenia or severe brain injuries.

As for ancient Epicureans, I would guess that there were some civic events that they participated in and others which they drew the line and said nope, not going to.

I think that the Epicurean philosophy is still in a "rebirth" phase and so we haven't really sorted out these issues.

Also, western civilization is so individualized (as is this forum) that we don't have group practices or alternative celebrations established.

Another excerpt from that article:

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“The real benefit of Halloween is for adults, not children,” Cindy Dell Clark, a professor emeritus of anthropology and author of "All Together Now: American Holiday Symbolism Among Children and Adults," tells TODAY.com. “It’s one day where (adults) can have the catharsis of just mocking death in its face, lampooning it, pinning it up on their house. But ... for children it’s serious. At age 6 or 7, when adults take them to a haunted house, they are truly frightened.”

I think that there are more questions coming up regarding the idea of the "catharsis" of Halloween for adults. And does it end up mocking death in such a manner so that a person doesn't really have to think deeply about mortality?

Of course, Epicurean philosophy addresses the concept of death in such a very different manner. There isn't anything there for us to mock!

Here is a current news write-up on Halloween. I think that adults aren't exactly "immune" to mental concepts of things or their correlate actions -- they do affect us in some way...as evidence shows in this news article about a fake house fire, and other unintelligent things.

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Halloween has gotten more intense over time, from horror enthusiasts decorating their homes with fake bloodstains to animatronic ghouls in costume stores scaring the daylights out of kids. Some parents are worried — is Halloween too scary for kids?

Family visits to Spirit Halloween stores have become “a seasonal tradition,” a company spokesperson tells TODAY.com, adding, “Our animatronics offer varying levels of scare.”

On TikTok, parents are sharing videos of their children shrieking and falling to the floor in abject terror as towering mechanical monsters pop out at them.

Sometimes, people get so carried away with Halloween decorations that the authories get involved.

A South Carolina family has installed special effects that looks like a “house fire,” with smoke and flames bursting from windows. ...

Is Halloween getting too scary for kids?

If your kid is freaked out, they're not alone. Here's how to handle it.

www.today.com

"First of all believe that god is a being immortal and blessed, even as the common idea of a god is engraved on men’s minds, and do not assign to him anything alien to his immortality or ill-suited to his blessedness: but believe about him everything that can uphold his blessedness and immortality. For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision. But they are not such as the many believe them to be: for indeed they do not consistently represent them as they believe them to be. And the impious man is not he who popularly denies the gods of the many, but he who attaches to the gods the beliefs of the many.

[124] For the statements of the many about the gods are not conceptions derived from sensation, but false suppositions, according to which the greatest misfortunes befall the wicked and the greatest blessings (the good) by the gift of the gods. For men being accustomed always to their own virtues welcome those like themselves, but regard all that is not of their nature as alien.

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What other textual evidence do we have, from Lucretius etc.?

PD 01 doesn't use the word "gods".

Also, we'll need to cross-reference anything on the prolepsis of the gods (I'll see what I can dig up and post here soon).

Thinking that this coud be a thread for discussion of Halloween, and how modern Epicureans can make sense of it. I am noticing that the popularity of Halloween seems to increase more and more, (in area of the US that I live in). There are Halloween type public events occuring even now (the first I saw just happened on this past Thursday night), which is crazy because Halloween is not till October 31st. And there are numerous events happening on the two weekends coming up (the weekend before Halloween and then on Halloween which is on a Friday).

Many downtown shopping city areas put on events...and it looks like over 20 churchs or more (throughout the area of where my sister lives and some also in my area) are holding events called "Trunk-or-Treat" for children to dress up and get candy (people decorate the trunk of their cars and hand out candy to children as they walk around the parking lot).

I can't help but think that perhaps the Christian religion is "needing" to promote Halloween since anything that represents "supernatural" (and promoting the idea that the spirit of humans exists separately from the body...and therefore there are ghosts and "life after death") ...is just the other side of the same coin (where would Christians be without the devil?).

I think that modern Epicureans should consider how to apply PD 01 to our current situation with Halloween.

PD01: "The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak."

Of course there are many aspects to Halloween, and children have a different and much more simple understanding of it, compared to teenagers and adults.

For adults who succumb to or have "supernatural belief tendencies", Halloween ends up reproducing a somewhat similar supernatural mythos as compared to ancient Greek mythology, but with a twist -- there are powerful forces, and some people (like in the "Harry Potter mythology") know how to harness the powers or subdue the evil powers - in the end you have powers that do your bidding if you know how to interact with them. But this modern mythology ends up reinforcing both ideas of the existence of a "supernatural realm" and also "supernatural good and evil".

Welcome to the forum Zarathustra

You might like to watch this overview video created by Cassius (if you haven't already).

Quote from Cassius

We ought to note for the record that the one on the right is a creative alteration, and not authentic!

Yes, thank you for making that clear (I have now added an edit note to that post (in post 5 above).

It is interesting to think about how smiles can hide inner emotions (such as in the dying warrior smiling) but perhaps a scowling expression appears like there is less emotion being covered up.

Here is the photo to which Martin was referring to in post 6 above:

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The following is from a posting made by forum member Martin:

...Gypsum copy of a statue of a dying (and smiling!) Greek warrior (Copies of this statue in other museums include the arrow in his chest which he appears to grab.)

"The smile features predominately on Archaic Greek statues from about 570 to 480 BC...

There have been many theories as to why this very distinct smile was depicted in Archaic sculpture."

Quoted from: https://ancientart.tumblr.com/post/111696494…e-how-does-this

Later statues usually do not show a smile.

The smile on the dying warrior might indicate a philosophy which did not see death as terrible at a time well before Socrates and then Epicurus came up with not to fear death.

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Quote from Cassius

Yes a good topic, and something to correlate with the observation that to my knowledge none of the statues of Epicurus or any other Epicurean shows them smiling, but rather more serious or, in the case of Epicurus, intense.

We've discussed this elsewhere (will need to find the link)...there is a time and a place for everything...

Which Epicurus would you want at your Birthday party or Twentieth Celebration?

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Edit note: Oct. 9th, 2:12pm - the above graphic is digitally altered to highlight different emotions.

There was a lot going on during the Archaic period:

Wikipedia: Archaic Greece

Wishing a Happy Birthday to:

HollyGraves

Cyrano

Thanks Adrastus for bringing this up. The Wikipedia link you included shows a few examples of sculptures, and really piques my interest.

Welcome to the forum wbernys !

Martin maybe you can give a good answer to the question in the above post.

Also:

VS79. The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another.

The following Principal Doctrines help to determine what an Epicurean does and doesn't do -- not abstract ideals (such as asceticism or minimalism).

PD24. If you reject any single sensation, and fail to distinguish between the conclusion of opinion, as to the appearance awaiting confirmation, and that which is actually given by the sensation or feeling, or each intuitive apprehension of the mind, you will confound all other sensations, as well, with the same groundless opinion, so that you will reject every standard of judgment. And if among the mental images created by your opinion you affirm both that which awaits confirmation, and that which does not, you will not escape error, since you will have preserved the whole cause of doubt in every judgment between what is right and what is wrong.

(The way to evaluate mere opinions and arrive at what is true, is to observe sensations and feelings).

PD08. No pleasure is a bad thing in itself; but the means which produce some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures.

(Something is determined to be "bad" only when the consequences bring much worse sensations of pain).

PD03. The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.

(Something is considered genuinely pleasurable when it isn't accompanied by pain).

In study of Philodemus, this may be of use:

"Horace an Epicurean Sage: The Influence of Philodemus on Epistles I", by Ryan Migliore - a dissertation...

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/199343/rmiglior_1.pdf

Excerpt (pg. 28)

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1.5 Roman Epicureanism in the 1st century BCE

So far, I have attempted to represent, in general terms, Philodemus’ practice of Epicureanism as more flexible and open to new ideas but no less Epicurean. It must be remembered that for a philosopher like Philodemus, these characteristics are not signs of deviation from orthodoxy but a natural result of separation from Epicurus, contact with Roman culture, and his own experiences. He is not altering core Epicurean tenets but filling in gaps and 112 Asmis (1995) 21-22. 28often providing logical arguments like the ones needed by Cicero’s Torquatus. This flexibility and openness are two aspects that can be traced in the practice of Epicureanism in the late Republic. Recently, there has been excellent work on the Epicureanism of Piso, Atticus, Vergil, and even Julius Caesar, a brief consideration of which further reveals how flexibility and openness were part of the philosophy’s appeal.113 In discussing the extent of the philosophical convictions of these historical figures, I hope to show not only what might be considered the philosophy’s more orthodox practice at Rome, but also the surprising presence of “Epicureanlight” ideas that pervade the Roman ethos. Alongside this discussion, I want to suggest what I believe is a more proper way of understanding professions of Epicureanism: that we should not evaluate such professions against a monolithic conception of the philosophy but rather accept them and seek to understand how Roman adherents applied the philosophical doctrines to improve their lives.114

Happy Birthday Cassius !!!

Wishing you a day filled with many wonderful joys, and may you live long, healthy, and joyously!

And we are all grateful to you for everything you have done to bring the liberating teachings of ancient Epicurean philosophy into our modern times!

This Vatican Saying comes up:

VS54. We must not pretend to study philosophy, but study it in reality, for it is not the appearance of health that we need, but real health.

I always interpret this as a combination of both physical and mental health.

And this could be applied to Buddhism as well...even if someone sits in meditation, and appears to be doing well, what is actually going on inside their minds?

Epicureanism helps one make sense of death and desires, and that leads toward liberation without the need for years and years of long meditation sessions. You drop your mental worries because you have arrived at a sense of true personal sufficiency - through a combination of putting effort into setting up your life and lifestyle to be conducive to personal well-being and developing specific attitudes/understandings toward pleasure & pain and life & death.