Sorry about the copying and pasting. I'll refrain from that in the future. And sorry that this thread ultimately was "Root realizes he needs to look at better translations."
Just found and read through Kungi's Welcome thread. Lots off good stuff there. Hadn't realized there already was active discussion on the topic of virtues to look at.
Cassius Thanks so much for this more holistic goal to work towards. I can see the constraint in thinking in terms of just problems to solve, as you wouldn't ever see the forest for the trees and just have a collection of answers without actually inhabiting an Epicurean worldview. I suppose I framed it that way as that sort of framing constituted a "switch" in my mind between still thinking in terms of the old Judeo-Christian God and Neo-Platonic ideas, and the usual questions, towards getting me thinking in terms of Epicurean philosophy and trying to conceive of new questions. Epicurus is literally the first philosopher I was ready and absolutely compelled to spend some time studying in depth, so it was kind of a "moment" I had. So much of Epicurean philosophy is so alien to how my unsystematic mind grew to think. I happened upon a wonderful starting point to start philosophizing. Cheers!
Don Thanks so much for this explanation. Of course! I forgot the big question of whether to fear the God's.
I think I've combined the idealist and the realist views before in my conceptions due some of the memes out there floating around and started thinking, "am I getting into a Ancient Aliens cult?" 
I got obsessed, found Don 's awesome translation work of the Letter and got a bit into the weeds. Need to stop before I get out the pins, string and cork board. Haha! Had a great time. 
"Now, the beginning and the greatest good of all these things is prudence, on which account prudence is something more valuable than even philosophy, inasmuch as all the other virtues spring from it, teaching us that it is not possible to live pleasantly unless one also lives prudently, and honourably, and justly; and that one cannot live prudently, and honestly, and justly, without living pleasantly; for the virtues are allied to living agreeably, and living agreeably is inseparable from the virtues."- Letter to Menoceus
Not sure on the "honourably" versus "honestly" switch. A lot of sites I looked at for this passage had that discrepancy.
Anyway, in following the recent discussions on epistemology in the podcast and in the forums, this passage brought up some thoughts for me. Is this talk of prudence being more valuable than philosophy a way of using the language of virtue ethics (which I gather he didn't think much of), to bring it back to the notion of anticipations being a core feature of his epistemology? Am I conflating the concepts of foresight and shrewd judgement in the idea of "Prudence", with notions of predictability associated with "anticipations"? I also need to look more into other discussions here on the forums for what Epicurus actually thought of the Virtues, as my current thinking is to include them in his "vain ideals."
Also I found it interesting in knowing a bit more about Epicurean philosophy, to try to unpack the use of the words prudently, honourably/honestly and justly in the passage rather than just seeing a bunch of "yay!" words strung together. Prudently potentially being a reference to his epistemology rather than to the virtues per se. Justice in Epicureanism being based on convention and contract, and the material conditions that bring about those conventions. Honourably/honestly being central to issues of reputation, and the potential for friendship and the security for living pleasantly that it brings.
The final part about "agreeabley" and virtue is beyond my capability of analyzing. 
Cheers!
Would it be fair to say that Epicurean theology is meant to resolve a completely different set of problems than the prevailing supernatural theology? If the universe has no beginning or end, and there is no supernatural dimension, ideals or essences, then we aren't trying to solve with Gods the problems of prime mover, problems of evil or theories of supernatural magic, etc. So is Epicurus trying to explain the sensations, feelings and anticipations of, or associated with, Gods with his theology? I am not particularly well read on all the material, but I remember some pieces on explaining the Gods in dreams. Also Epicurus or an Epicurean talking about prevailing attitudes about Gods being morally good, as if he is trying to speak to the social conventions about Gods being their chief concern. If my line of question has any merit, what other empirical (or otherwise) problems might the ancient Epicureans be trying to resolve with their Theology?
Sorry for my curtness. I read your initial comment in a more combative way as I am use to trying to argue for Epicurus to the religious and the mad.
Though, I definitely should have went with my gut in avoiding that video. I didn't want to start my day off enraged. His form of freedom I rebel against about as much as his conception of slavery, at least at this stage of my life. Pleasure for me is the action and feeling which nourishes my soul (Soul as we discussed elsewhere), which are actions that elevate beyond the mess of ambivalence in my volition and lack of Prudence in my ideations.
Eh, you'd have to sell it more before I will give it my attention. I am already not interested in the framing of "slavery" in any sort of attempt at self understanding.
Putting duty and "high ideals" above all has been a path towards disaster and regret for me. I have that impulse towards self-abuse and plowing through pain, and there just is no ultimate sense of achievement in the end, even when the job was done well. The unintended consequences of damaged relationships and sour mood in operating that way are always worse than just not getting the job done or having to work with imperfect outcomes. Putting the business of pleasure above all leads me to a better attitude and I perform a job, have that social interaction and fulfill that duty more artfully bringing more aspects of myself to the task, and the mindset sets me up for better quality work over time.
Edit: Turn that ol' formulation on its head. You strive for Pleasure and the work gets done along the way.
Definitely. Just like the God of the Gaps idea, the immaterial Soul recedes off into nothing once we study the intricacies of our physical bodies and the subjective experiences involved in living.
Haha I just use the "meatsuit" term as a sort of push back against the idea being used by Atheists and non-atheists alike to describe secular worldviews. Just kinda gross objectifying of ourselves.
Another way I can look at interaction with the Gods is from a psychological and even poetic lenses, which is sort of what I was reaching for in the other post about sensitivity. Is experiencing Pleasure framed as a sort of nihilistic tickling of the nervous system in our meatsuits in a particular way or do we take the idea of an Epicurean Soul to mean the total package of human experience; our context, emotional and sensory depth, our passions and interests, our challenges, our relationship to ideas and people, our broadening and changing understanding as we journey through life, our histories and our relationship to that history and the core memories that shaped us. These could all be interacted with in various therapeutic, artistic, religious or ritualistic ways, that brings about ataraxia (a quieted mind) in the Epicurean sense of no longer fearing the gods, superstition or death. Of course they could also be interacted with the manipulate us as well.
We are taking it more from a sense of play and community, and trying to be inclusive of what expression our Friends want to bring to the occassion. Our "magic" consisted of writing an intention on a bay leaf and tossing it in the fire. I don't think we will ever get into any serious pagan stuff, and my wife and I being the hosts are more excited about bringing folklore and norm-breaking social games to the event given that some people that attend aren't religious or in to spirituality at all. Like we want to have our take on an anglo-saxon boasting ceremony for example as well as explore the 3 skills of the poets from the celtic tradition, that kind of thing. I am at work and can't explain in depth but maybe I could start a thread some time about different ceremonial events this community thinks could be done at an Eikas.
Thanks so much for the discussion. Lots of rich threads to pick up and examine and tons of great resources to look at regarding Epicureanism and Christianity.
I've had roughly a month wrestling with this topic, exploring disparate interests, memories, fears and other feelings that prompted the initial post. I think ultimately I should trust that sense of aversion to presenting Christianity in the contemporaneous form and trust the way I have already have been introducing Christian culture to them: through music. I often have music from the Early Music genre (European Medieval and Renaissance) playing around the house; Carmina Carolingiana in the mornings, El Cant de la Sibil or Jordi Savall as background music during the day, and I use to play Hildegard von Bingen as I tucked them in at night. I think that will could give them a entry point into understanding Catholic or Christian culture in some way should they ever want to go further into it, while not being an unnatural move on my part. I love all that old music.
I reached out to my close friends and community and hosted a Summer Solstice event the other day. We had lots of fun reciting some words, building a fire, doing some simple witchery and leaving offerings and libations out. I realized I ought to trust the deep interests I have in folklore, ritual, anthropology and Epicureanism that I, and members of my community, could share with my kids with my heart truly in it in a way that is most playful and pleasurable. So I'm going to build a festival calendar around Eikas, intermixed with Solstices and Equinoxes, and draw from folklore traditions and what other things might interest my community of Friends to build a sort of hearth religion.
Hello! Yes I had brought the Allegory of the Oasis up in the previous Wednesday meeting. I have been meditating on it and thinking about ways to use the image as a graphic to explain Epicureanism in brief to friends and family, as well as a tool to use in exploring the topic of Ideas with my children. I always come back to that second step. That notion of our ideas not comporting to the true nature of things and that heart-broken flight into ideas to save something of that worldview. I have made many missteps into the Neo-Platonic systems of my youth when religion crumbled and into political ideology when my sense of justice crumbled. All very hard lessons to learn for me. It's such a powerful process of mind to point out and offer a better solution to.
I should be able to make it this week! I had another zoom group right before this one on Wednesdays that I've decided to back out of as I didn't want to spend my entire Wednesday evening on zoom, and my Epicurean studies are more important to me.
Wow! That's really inspiring! Eventually observing Eikas with the UU sounds fun.
Don Yeah, I've been exploring online UU spaces over the pandemic when I started getting back into reading philosophy and religious material again. That renewed search is what led me to Epicurus! I've been flirting with joining the local UU congregation since they've opened up again as a sort of commitment to developing Epicurean practice and other more Naturalist spirituality, and just attempting to be more socially presentable haha. Anyway, maybe I'll drop in tomorrow.
I guess I currently have lapses in confidence in my own ability to help my kids navigate the philosophical/religious/political/spiritual/social, terrain in an artful way. I feel like I have a decent grasp of the pitfalls and advantages to the various paths out there to be a decent guide, an advantage I have from trying and learning a lot of different things, but clearly formulating the goals and curating the experiences brings in a feeling of anxiety as taking the first steps means committing. Haha, I feel like all my philosophizing over the past 6 years since I have been a dad, has begun with philosophizing about parenting and reflecting on my own childhood. So forgive me for always mentioning that I am thinking about my kids in every post.
Awesome! All this mention of honey takes me back to my homebrewing days where I made a lot of mead (as well as beer).
