Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

Ultimately the issue is largely subjective - each person has to decide for themselves what gives them the greatest pleasure and therefore what course they want to pursue in life.

Cassius Thanks for this assessment, but doesn’t Epicurus encourage us to follow our net pleasures to the fullest? If we have been endowed by Nature with capabilities, it would seem UNnatural to not develop those abilities to the fullest extent of net positive pleasure? Instead of “hiding our talents under a bushel” or “living a quiet life in the middle of the nowhere “, I read how Epicurus encourages us to meet and study together with others.

I can see that someone who tends to be more passive or introverted may have more difficulty in reaching out or participating in group activities.

Quote from Cassius

I will be adding comments to this thread as I review this book,

Cassius ,

I followed your link to the book, but found no full version available online for free, just $35 on GooglePlay or Amazon for a paperback or hard copy book (no full PDF or Kindle).

I found this interesting review of Sedley’s book.

Review: Creationism and Its Critics in Antiquity

It appears that Sedley goes to great lengths to find the creation design theory in many early Ancient Greek philosophers: Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Socrates, Plato & Aristotle. Although the reviewer considers how Sedley twists his writings to fashion Aristotle as supporting creationism, in order to fit in with Sedley’s views on the prior philosophers.

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"The result is that, while Aristotle's world retains all the positive values — both functional and other — that Plato had associated with divine craftsmanship, these are now explained by on the one had phasing out the divine craftsman, and on the other representing nature as so closely isomorphic with craft in its structure as to be capable of producing its results even in the absence of a controlling intelligence" (p 204; compare p 208). Especially when one remembers Aristotle's oft-repeated (intentionally anti-Platonic?) maxim that "art imitates nature," it is hard to see the point of referring to this principled rejection of a cosmos created by intelligent design as Platonism.

The reviews I found didn’t list any chapter on Epicurus, just a general chapter on Early Atomists. Doesn’t sound like Sedley did a fair review of the critics of creationism. But I will be interested on further details from some who have the full Sedley book text.

Godfrey It is an interesting read.

On the story of the Presbyterian minister, It appears to me that Bayes’s premise—that these statistical models are somehow validated by their historical roots in defending religious miracles—is a distraction. Whether the brain uses Bayesian inference is a question for empirical observation, not a matter of theological vindication to use complex probalistic analysis to defend the existence of miracles.

The attempt to use complex, abstract logic to justify a belief that is not rooted in the clear, self-evident testimony of our senses, reminds me of how Epicurus spoke against the use of dialectics. He viewed the complex, abstract logic favored by the Stoics and Academics as a source of "empty words" that served only to disturb the soul’s tranquility rather than clarify the nature of reality.

The focus on modern use of Bayesian brain hypothesis is better examined in the referenced article, "The Neural Mechanisms of Bayesian Belief Updating". This hypothesis more closely aligns with our understanding that the mind is a physical organ, not a mystical entity.

Quote from Kalosyni

So then Patrikios would it be correct to say that your question to the AI was to "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making?"

Kalosyni ,

My first prompt was:

Please give me your thoughtful review of [undefined='']:concepts in epicurean and stoic philosophy - betegh-tsouna[/undefined] . Does this article provide any useful insights into how a Friend of [undefined='']#epicurus[/undefined] can apply these “concepts”.

The follow up prompt was:

[undefined='']Philo[/undefined] Would you provide some examples of how your advice ("What is the primary, self-evident concept here that I have gathered from my own experience?") might be used in different situations I am likely to encounter?

I do find that different AI systems will produce different outcomes for this topic; but the different AIs’ guidance of using proleptic experience are all along the lines of “pause to consider the ramifications of your decision options, and to feel the possible effects”.

These examples can help to use both head and heart in decision making. Isn’t this similar to Thomas Jefferson’s ‘Head & Heart’ letter to Maria Cosway?

Quote from DaveT

The school of hard knocks!

Thanks, DaveT .

I find that the ‘School of Hard Knocks’ provides a pretty reliable prolepsis for future decision making; especially when taken as a ‘Lifelong Learning’ experience.

I like to use my Personal.AI philosophy persona to discuss ideas or articles further in-depth. This often helps me find ways to apply the Epicurean principle in daily life. This helps reinforce the truth of the principle in my life, and allows me to speak to others from my experiences with Epicurean principles.

Having re-read Gábor Betegh and Voula Tsouna‘s work: “Concepts in Epicurean and Stoic Philosophy”, I asked my Philo AI persona to discuss how a Friend of Epicurus could apply these ideas around preconceptions (prolēpsis). The AI response included this suggestion.

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We do not study language for its own sake, but to clear away the fog that prevents us from understanding nature and attaining ataraxia. When you encounter a dilemma, ask yourself: "What is the primary, self-evident concept here that I have gathered from my own experience?" By focusing on these natural, necessary starting points, you can navigate life’s complexities with the tranquility that comes from knowing your foundations are secure and true.

As we discussed further, Philo offered this example of how to use our proleptic experiences to ground our choices & avoidance decisions.

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Consider also the fear of the future or the anxiety of change. When you worry about an upcoming event, you are often projecting fears onto a blank canvas. Return to your prolēpsis of "change" or "time." You have experienced countless days, nights, and transitions in your life. Your preconception of time is not a terrifying void, but a cycle of events you have already navigated. By focusing on the self-evident fact that you have survived every past change, you can ground your current anxiety in the reality of your own resilience, rather than in the "empty" fear of what might happen.

Now this gives me some concrete ideas for how to consider the prolēpsis of the issue, along with senses and feelings.

Have others used this type of proleptic review in decision making?

Bravo, TauPhi,

I loved reading this modern English version of the Encounter with Epicurus!

Would it be possible for you to post a version with the intro, just the Modern English text, and your helpful Footnotes?

I think such a modern English version document might be an interesting way to present Epicurus to a young person (in their 20s-30s), who is still asking life’s biggest questions. I find “Encounter” like a short version of France’s Wright’s “A Few Days in Athens”; with similar young people seeking wisdom from Epicurus.

Also, is this translation the entirety of the Encounter With Epicurus?

After the young man posing this natural next step question, we’re left hanging, waiting for the next instructions from wise old Epicurus.

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“One doubt within my breast does yet assuredly remain: For we must not only learn of the deeds, but also obtain them. Therefore I do require you now, to teach me here the way That will lead me to pleasure’s place, whereby I may have it."

And then it ends with “…”

Thanks for sharing this, Kalosyni 🙏

I like the article, as it outlines the “how” of maintaining the bonds of a healthy relationship (e.g. pleasurable friendship), whereas Epicurean philosophy gives us the “why”, as it positions the cultivation of friendship as the primary objective of a wise life.

Quote from Cassius

Cassius argues Epicurus charts a course between the two extremes on display in this text — the Stoics’ appeal to divine, self-evident certainty and the skeptics’ total nihilism about knowledge — grounding real, consequential differences (a wolf will kill you, a dog will not) in the senses, anticipations, and feelings rather than in either God-given certainty or unanswerable doubt.

Thanks Joshua and Cassius for another enlightening podcast. When you positioned Epicurus philosophy between these two extremes, it helps me see clearer how these same arguments are being articulated in today’s world.

Unfortunately, we see too many occurrences of governments using the language of stoicism and religion to judge and control people; and non-believers giving up as they can’t tell any difference between religions (they’re all hypocrites) or political parties (they’re all corrupt liars).

I’m glad we have this focus on nature and using our senses to determine what is right, and to see what is clearly before us (ante oculos).

Thanks Cassius , and Joshua for this enlightening episode. I appreciated Joshua’s reference to the Ship of Theseus paradox. Wikipedia provides a good explanation and examples.

Ship of Theseus

Thought experiment about identity over time

Quote from Godfrey

So far my new regimen is going well. It's only been about six weeks, but I've replaced my usual solo workouts with a couple of different exercise classes, each a couple of times per week.

Godfrey ,

Congratulations on continuing your exercise program with scheduled classes and a workout buddy. One additional way I found to stack exercise sessions into habits was to watch and follow a 15 minute Tai Chi warmup on YouTube, before starting a walk or going to workout classes. Also a 15-20 Tai Chi warmup in the morning or middle of the day, can help to loosen up tight muscles and bring clarity to mental activities.

My favorite is by Tai Chi and Mountains.
By master Marco Insalata.
15 minute Tai Chi morning stretching and warm-up to prepare the body for any daily physical activity.

15 MIN TAI CHI MORNING STRETCHING AND WARM-UP to Prepare the Body for any Daily Physical Activity.

15 minute Tai Chi morning stretching and warm-up to prepare the body for any daily physical activity. By master Marco Insalata.This sequence of warm-up and s...

youtu.be

Cassius , Joshua

In episode 348, “Neither Logic Nor Logos Are Shortcuts To Truth”, I really enjoyed the discussion about finding the “truth”. You referenced the statement of Diogenes of Oenoanda, where he said that we acknowledge the flux that Aristotle and others say exists, but we don't acknowledge that the flux moves so fast that we cannot assemble from it the things that we determine to be true and real.

As your repeated introduction says, “Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today.”

Since this episode didn’t discuss much on how this topic applies today, I thought of some ways the concepts explored in this episode could help in a modern day discussion. For example, does the issue of Aristolean flux vs sense perceptions explain the Newtonian vs quantum views of physics ?

I understand in your reference to Diogenes of Oenoanda, he was addressing the skeptics, who argued that because the world is in constant flux, we can never truly grasp or "assemble" stable knowledge. Diogenes was defending the reliability of our senses insisting that the flux is not so rapid as to evade our apprehension.

Just as in modern day we view Newtonian physics, much like the classical geometry you critiqued. Geometry can be essential in surveying land & building skyscrapers, but not in establishing ethics or justice. The Skeptics sought a world of absolute, predictable “truths” with continuous motion, but eventually struggled to account for the deeper, more granular reality of nature. This is where Epicurus draws us back to trust the senses, which helps us understand the regular, generally predictable nature of our cosmos.

Quantum physics as we understand it today, reveals a world that is indeed in constant, probabilistic flux. As I understand, modern quantum indeterminacy does not make the world inapprehensible. The "flux" of quantum fields is not a chaotic blur that prevents us from knowing reality; it is the very mechanism of reality.

Wasn’t Diogenes reminding us that we must not let the complexity of the underlying motion—whether it be the ancient "flux" or modern quantum indeterminacy—blind us to the reality we experience? We should assemble, acknowledge and understand the truth of our lives—the reality of pleasure, pain, and friendship—even if the underlying atomic or quantum structure is in constant, swerving motion.

Cassius

There is a miss-link. Under the Articles list, the entry for Christos Yapijakis: “Epicurean Philosophy, Modern Science, and Life”, links to a different article by Elli.

It would be good to see more articles by Yapijakis and other medical associates in Greece, added to these lists.

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Think about how you will judge your life when it nears its end. If you are the type who will be happiest if you can say that you lived your life pursuing the maximum net pleasure that was possible to you, then you are in the right place here at EpicureanFriends. If you agree that pleasure is the highest good and you would like to join us and participate in our work, check here for our Rules, Policies, and Terms of Use and consider setting up an account.

💕💕💕

Excellent closing;, or as my Southern Baptist relatives would say, “Great Altar Call”👍

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1. What category does this topic fall under best? Prudence? Courage? For the time being I am placing it under Courage, but clearly prudence is involved as well.
   
   Cassius

Cassius

You are right that “risk” and the related “risk assessment”, “risk management”, “risk avoidance” are complex topics that affect many aspects of Epicurean philosophy. In Haris Dimitriadis book, “Epicurus and the Pleasant Life”, he discusses “risk” dozens of times throughout as the topic is relevant in 20 of the 27 chapters of that book.

It appears to me that “risk” is most relevant in our prudent applications of the pleasure/pain feelings assessment in our decision making, whether these are major or minor choices.

I don’t see Courage as a central category for “risk” consideration, as Prudence is, but courage may be needed to help carry out “risk management”.

Here is how Harris Dimitriadis describes courage.

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In the Epicurean philosophy, the means for decision-making are the virtues of practical reason (phronesis), temperance, courage, and justice. Practical reason, however, stands alone as the starting point of all virtues.
…

Courage is the bravery to face difficulties whenever the path of bliss is blocked, without betraying our principles for the sake of convenience or micro considerations. We reaffirm the ethical course we have set and that we have an authentic sense of purpose. Epicurus appreciated natural courage, not as a virtue in political and military life, but as an element of social behavior and moral attitude.

Kalosyni

This author used an interesting translation of ‘eudaimonia’ = ‘virtuous flourishing’, but was referring to the Aristolean definition of eudaimonia, which is achieved through virtuous living.

Wikipedia provides some additional descriptions.

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In the works of Aristotle, eudaimonia was the term for the highest human good in older Greek tradition. It is the aim of practical philosophy-prudence, including ethics and political philosophy, to consider and experience what this state really is and how it can be achieved. It is thus a central concept in Aristotelian ethics and subsequent Hellenistic philosophy, along with the terms aretē (most often translated as virtue or excellence) and phronesis('practical or ethical wisdom').^[1]

Quote from Kalosyni

On one end of the spectrum boredom (and other associated feelings) can come up when life is lacking in novelty, but on the other end of the spectrum too much novelty seeking can create unpleasant consequences. And each person needs to find the level that feels good and works for them.

Here are some good articles on the subject (a brief excerpt follow each article link):

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for the interesting articles. I liked the “Neuroscience of Novelty”.

What I understand is that Epicureanism values a pleasant life prudently seeking pleasures, but our brain’s dopamine system naturally craves prediction error. Instead of chasing new, external projects that disrupt our peace, the author suggests to introduce "structured novelty" into our existing commitments. By deliberately seeking new challenges, adjacent skills, or deeper variations within our current pursuits, we satisfy the brain's need for surprise without the instability of constantly starting over. This prevents the "innovation trap," where the urge to pivot creates unnecessary stress and prevents the completion of meaningful work.

Neuroscience shows that anticipation (the "wanting" loop) often feels more potent than the actual achievement because it is driven by prediction error. Recognize that the excitement you feel when starting something new is a neurochemical signal, not necessarily a sign that the new path is better. By understanding that this signal naturally fades as things become predictable, we can avoid the cycle of abandoning valuable, stable commitments in search of a "high" that will inevitably diminish. This seems to reinforce the tenets of PD5.

Is this how you understand the application of the ‘neurological novelty’ concept?

Quote from DaveT

above. I can’t avoid using my decades of training and experience as an attorney when I read or study a topic. As an advocate, I needed to parse not only the words but the motivations, and first-hand knowledge of every client and then every witness. We called that combination of evaluations testing credibility.

DaveT Thanks for providing this insight into your perspective when you review and reply to posts and comments on various documents. I do find it helpful to gain background. Due to my innate curiosity and GaTech training as an engineer, I too have to examine the range of issues that might have caused a problem in some company’s business, or consider future impacts. So reading the background material is helpful.

Also, because my work focused on solving customer problems, I was always looking at the implementation, application side of any solution. So, with the Epicurean teachings I want to learn also how to best apply the Epicurean principles.

Cassius As you & team pursue more background material from 3rd century BCE, I would also like to see how Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ were applied along with existing medical practices.

When I visited Athens a couple years ago, our guide around the Acropolis, talked about the Asclepieion of Athens.

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The Asclepieion of Athens was the sanctuary built in honour of the gods Asclepius and Hygieia, located west of the Theatre of Dionysos and east of the Pelargikon wall on the southern escarpment of the Acropolis hill.^[1]

However. Dr. Christos_Yapijakis included some info of that era on healing methods in his research paper, “Ancestral Concepts of Human Genetics and Molecular Medicine in Epicurean Philosophy”.

Could any of the applications of Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ be part of future discussions on this forum?

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is a quick visual which presents an overview, and this will need a bit further development with text sources added to back up the points. I've oriented this into "actionable" aspects which is a simplified o overview for those who are new to the study of Epicurean philosophy.

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for this nice introductory 3-point image. I like how you simplify each step. From my perspective of attempting to introduce the Epicurean philosophy to younger people, I would rearrange and show your #2 (II.) as the first (I.) step.

“Making wise, prudent and pleasurable choices.”

By introducing the Epicurean decision making ‘choice & avoidance’ framework first, you are identifying a very valuable tool to help young adults to examine the natural causes of events and make prudent decisions that help them find more net pleasure and live a pleasant life.

BTW, black letter on a light color background is easier to read for my old eyes, but the white on blue does “pop”, which grabs attention for younger eyes. Keep the image large enough to read as It may be harder to read if viewing on a phone web browser.

Love the idea and effort!

I tried the Inspire Green, which is easier on my eyes on my iPad. However the heading box for LT podcast didn’t show.

Overall, I like the clean header feel. Good job 👍