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So then in essence this list has slightly different definitions than what has been said in other places on the forum, and it is also different from what is in Austin's book "Living for Pleasure"...
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Thoughts?
Kalosyni I see these categories as diagnostic tools for self-examination; where the purpose of classification is to reveal whether a desire leads us toward or away from tranquility.
As Matteng indicated, we should use sober reasoning to ask how does my pursuit of X affect my ataraxia?
Hi, I'd like to ask you about the methods the Epicureans taught for improving our habits and avoiding unnecessary emotions.
Surely, each of us is sometimes influenced by an impulse that, if acted upon, leads to bad consequences (for example, eating junk food, smoking cigarettes), or we experience emotions that cause us to do something we shouldn't.
Here’s are some examples of writings I have found helpful in dealing with hurtful choices.
Philodemus' On Anger provides the most detailed practical methodology. He acknowledged that anger arises from our nature and should be treated with compassion rather than suppression
Philodemus’ On Frank Speech describe the used of "frank criticism" (parrhesia) within the community of friends. This involves honest, caring confrontation where friends help each other identify harmful patterns. Philodemus emphasized this must be done with gentleness and proper timing.
My thoughts on transhumanism (e.g., uploading consciousness to a machine or transferring it to another brain) are directly akin to my thoughts on the "pleasure machine": WHO owns the hardware doing the storage or transfer? What are their motivations? Follow the money!
If you want to explore what can happen in a future with this capability, check out “Upload” TV series. [Prime Video 2020-2025]
I agree with Martin and others that uploading your brain is not a viable alternative. At what age do you upload, before [brain cells start dying ar age 25?)?
[ U469 ]
Johannes Stobaeus, Anthology, XVII.23: "Thanks be to blessed Nature because she has made what is necessary easy to supply, and what is not easy unnecessary."it seems highly likely that this is related if not the very same thought differently expressed.
Cassius ,
From my reading in the Oxford Handbook of Epicurus and Epicureanism, Chapter 7 Hedonism, by Voula Tsouna, the phrase describing pleasure as “nature congenial to us”, that indicates that the pleasure state is our body’s natural state. Pain (both mental or physical) is Nature’s way to inform us that we are not operating in our most natural state.
According to Epicurus, then, pleasure has priority over every other good. This does not only, or not necessarily, mean that it is the first thing that we encounter in our lives. According to Torquatus, who says that he remains faithful to Epicurus’s way of teaching (Fin. 1.29), Epicurus designated pleasure as the telos, supreme or sovereign good, in the sense in which all philosophers agree that something is a telos: namely, all other goods must refer to it, whereas it does not refer to anything else. Epicurus’s further claim that pleasure is akin (syngenikon) and connatural (symphyton) points to its special affinity to our own nature. Because it has a nature congenial to us (cf. physin oikeian, Ep. Men. 129), every pleasure is in itself a good. Moreover, by virtue of that affinity, pleasure is closely related to physical and mental health (e.g. Ep. Men. 128). The opposite holds for pain: it is most alien to our nature and, therefore, every pain in itself is an evil and tends to destroy our constitution.
Since pleasure is our natural state, it is attainable as part of our nature.
Hiram Crespo's substack has 5 latest articles dedicated to Metrodorus.
Thanks, TauPhi
I found the July 2025 post by Hiram Crespo that links to 7 articles on Metrodorus.
By luck I've found another new book - and it's available in my local library! I've checked the table of contents and it seems to be quite valueable, especially for the sake of expanding one's knowledge on how the ancient Epicureans practised their philosophy.
I found this URL for free download of 168 page PDF, of this book by Michael Erler.
Epicurus: An Introduction to His Practical Ethics and Politics
In general, my summary would be that this is an essential article for anyone who wants to understand Epicurus and how we got to where we are today in appraising him.
Cassius Thanks for that analysis as you read through those 70 pages on #Happiness. I liked how Gassendi gives some added perspective on dealing with pain.
For there are things like fire and torments that he would wish not to suffer from, things he would much rather not have come his way. But when they arrive, he considers them as inevitable evils, and he endures them steadily; so that he can say ‘I burn, it is true, and I suffer, I sigh sometimes and let my tears flow, but I do not succumb. I am not vanquished and I do not let myself enter into a cowardly despair that would render my condition even more miserable.’
This describes how we should prepare mentally for difficulties *before* they arrive. Gassendi describes how the courageous person thinks through pain in advance: "great pains usually end quickly, slight pains have breaks, and moderate pains are within our control." This mental preparation itself brings pleasure—"the deep satisfaction of knowing circumstances won't conquer you."
This appears to be an application of VS47, to anticipate future pains - both physical and mental pains.
"VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and I have closed off every one of your devious entrances. "
Diogenes specifically used φαρμακος (6.1 & 2) "[pharmakos] medicine." This medicine metaphor is in keeping with U221 and VS54. It's not a stretch for me to see this extrapolated to use in the Tetrapharmakos.
Thanks, Don I appreciate your reference to Epicurus as the physician of the mind & soul. This is a good reason to separate Epicurus from other philosophers who provided advice on how to act. Epicurus, the ‘savior of humanity’ teaches us to feel, as he provides us with a prudent path to follow nature’s provided feelings (pain & pleasure) to guide us in daily choices and avoidances.
Dispelling those fears that have no justification is what calms the troubles in the mind. That is, by definition and etymology, is ataraxia
The more we can calm the mind, reaching a state of ataraxia; modern physiology shows that a calm mind can release chemicals that relax the body, which helps relieve body pains in order to also achieve aponia. 😁
I suspect we're not going to agree with everything that Gassendi has to say but this is VERY interesting. Thanks Robert!
Thanks for this paper from Gassendi. Even Karl Marx held contrary views on Gassendi as an ‘Epicurean’ 🤪
The experts know that no preliminary studies that are even of the slightest use exist for the subject of this treatise. What Cicero and Plutarch have babbled has been babbled after them up to the present day. Gassendi, who freed Epicurus from the interdict which the Fathers of the Church and the whole Middle Ages, the period of realised unreason, had placed upon him, presents in his expositions [15] only one interesting element. He seeks to accommodate his Catholic conscience to his pagan knowledge and Epicurus to the Church, which certainly was wasted effort. It is as though one wanted to throw the habit of a Christian nun over the bright and flourishing body of the Greek Lais. It is rather that Gassendi learns philosophy from Epicurus than that he could teach us about Epicurus' philosophy.
Karl Marx, doctoral dissertation – The Difference Between the Democreatin and Epicurean Philosophy of Nature – Robert C. Tucker translation as rendered by Eikadistes here: https://twentiers.com/marx/
TauPhi , and Matteng , thank you for your comments and encouragement on the chapters.
The Oxford Handbook is a collection of papers by different authors, vs the DeWitt single author approach, to encompass the breadth of Epicurus history and Epicureanism philosophy. So, I am delving into separate chapters to gain insight into some key topics.
For example, Chapter 5. Theology goes into great length on explaining the nature of Epicurean gods (elaborating on KD01) and explaining the 'prolepsis of the gods'. I was particularly helped by this explanation in the section, "The Ethical Meaning of Epicurean Theology"
The simulacra of the gods, then, bring benefits, and thus to participate in prayers and in religious ceremonies (cf. Diog. Oen. fr. 19 II 6–11 Smith) means to “interiorize” in an effective way the (pleasurable) divine simulacra and to put into practice the commitment to become like a god among men.
What this means to me is that when I do my deep meditation and contemplate on the blessedness and incorruptibility of the 'gods', I am better able to understand what the 'divine simulacra' are implanting in my mind. The text in this chapter makes clear that our knowledge of Epicurean gods comes through prolepsis—a criterion of truth formed by repeated perceptions of divine simulacra striking our minds. When I practice my repeated meditation, I can focus contemplating how Epicurean gods are beings who are genuinely incorruptible (aphtharsia) and blessed (makariotēs). The prolepsis contains the essential characteristics: gods as living beings free from perturbation, experiencing continuous atomic replenishment that prevents their dissolution. My goal isn't worship in the traditional sense, but assimilation of the feelings— how it feels to live "like a god among men".
After scanning the Epicurean Friends ‘Recommended Reading’ webpage, and the New Epicurean library; I find no recommendation for “The Oxford Handbook of Epicurus and Epicureanism”. Has anyone read it, and are the translations acceptable?
I’m reading the Kindle ‘sample’ with the first chapter, but at $47 for paperback or $31 for Kindle version, I’d like to be sure it is worth having for reference.
Thanks for any insight.
Ella Pensa:
First of all, best greetings!
I speak with Epicurean frankness and friendship, because friendship is ethics in action, and Epicurus placed it at the very heart of the pleasant and eudaemonic life.
Wow, Ella Pensa clearly demonstrates Epicurean ethics in action! This is an excellent way to publicly showcase Epicureanism.
This is yet another example of how powerfully therapeutic Epicureanism and the study of philosophical debate can be.
Welcome, MarkJW
You will likely find that statement to be a beautiful understatement!
There is so much to learn, especially as you learn from the multiple generations of Epicurean writers, much of those works saved or linked from this Epicurean Friends website. It is transformative!
David Sedley in his paper "Epicurus' Theological Innatism" places significance on the singular construction. Sedley proposed each person creates their own "god" which is why he stressed the importance of the singular form.
Joshua Thanks to your suggestion, I went back to re-read Sedley's paper on Innatism and the forming of a personal 'god'. This has helped to change my understanding of the basics of KD01. Sedley points to Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus where he advises readers to "consider god" and "attach to him" certain qualities. It appears to suggest we actively construct our own conception of a 'god' rather than discovering pre-existing beings. I now see how Sedley explains that we have an innate predisposition to form these divine images, but not because gods actually exist. Rather, we naturally tend to imagine beings that represent our own ideals of happiness and tranquility.
Is this a correct understanding of how to interpret how Epicurus referred to 'god(s)'?
while staying within the forum rules!
I try, Cassius, I try!
The trilemma stated by Hume in the article is often credited originally to Epicurus.
My main point in posting the article was to gain some background knowledge on what the author referenced “the problem of evil”. Does that phrase reference any historical writing?
“the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
“Where Is God in Gaza?”
The question of the role of ‘God’ in allowing the evil of war continues to play out in this NYT article “Where Is God in Gaza?”
The war’s grotesque details, live-streamed around the world, are an example of “the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus. It’s an issue that has vexed people throughout history as they tried to reconcile the existence of suffering with the belief in a benevolent God.
The author doesn’t discuss what Epicurus meant by “the problem of evil”, or how she would contrast the Epicurean view on wars fought over different religious beliefs.
It would have made for a more interesting article if the author addressed the question from Diogenes.
On account of what kind of gods, then, will human beings be righteous? For they are not righteous on account of the real ones or on account of Plato’s and Socrates’ Judges in Hades.
Happy Birthday, Cassius
May you feel the pleasure of knowing the joy you have brought to so many others with the Epicurean Friends website, and all your own writings. Thanks to you, I am able to discuss philosophy via Catius Cat with my grandchildren!
My interpretation is that the Epicurean position is that "virtue" is a generic term that applies to the "strengths" or "excellences" or the particular activities of a thing that keep it alive and allow it to flourish.
I appreciate that reference of the “virtue” of a thing is it’s excellence, it’s strengths, it’s will to survive. This reminded me of a song “Lust For Life” with the verse “a lust for life keeps us alive”.
It’s not a great song, but here is how someone on Reddit summed it up.
Also, "a lust for life keeps us alive" alludes to a philosophical idea that we continue to live simply bc we want to, that sometimes we don't need anything more to keep going in this crazy world except a desire to live. We keep living out of habit bc the alternative, death and non-existence is a truly foreign idea for us. Idk, I like it.
Living simply is very Epicurean, and with pleasure as our guide that keeps us in touch with our natural desires, to live & to flourish.
This is intriguing. The article states that consciousness arises from bodily sensations, not just from the brain. It's a very Epicurean idea, such that he states death is nothing to us as we will be without sensations and consciousness is extinguished.
Here’s a direct link to the article.
That is a very interesting article and research study into how our consciousness arises from interoception - our body's internal sensing system. I find that much of the research outcomes support several Epicurean principles. The research suggests that our lived experience emerges from the body's signals rather than being purely brain-generated. This appears to describe some aspects of Epicurean prolepsis (precognition).
Also, I find parallels in how this understanding of consciousness aligns with Christos #Yapijakis's interpretation of Epicurean biological determinism. For example, Yapijakis explains that Epicurus viewed consciousness and mental states as emerging from purely physical processes. In his 2018 paper "Ethical Teachings of Epicurus Based on Human Nature," he details how Epicureans understood that:
- Our sense perceptions are based on an atomic nature
- Mental processes arise from specific atomic arrangements in the body
- Consciousness emerges from interactions between physical components
- Psychological states have biological foundations
- Human behavior follows natural, deterministic patterns
I think this article may be another example of modern science providing the evidence for what Epicurus studied and rationally expected. Does this help to expand on your original post?
I have no comments on the AI aspects mentioned in the article.
Would you say then Cassius that “the absence of pain being the limit of pleasure” is not something I have to hold in my everyday mind as something practical? It’s more just something for use in philosophical reasoning and debate
I think that having a mental image of the most desirable state is highly practical and even essential and is similar to projecting this as a "godlike life." For that reason I would say that it needs to be held in mind In the same way Epicurus tells Herodotus to keep an outline in mind and to be able to flip back and forth from high level to detail at a moments notice.
And I would also say that the expansive definition of pleasure to include appreciation of all nonpainful life, particularly mental appreciation of the benefits of a true philosophy, is also a daily or even hourly thing.
This isn't just for times of debate.
Rolf thanks for your series of questions to better understand the pleasure/pain concept, and how to apply it.
As you were asking for practical examples, here is how I have been trying to apply this concept on a daily/hourly basis, as Cassius suggested above.
We know that even if we have no physical pains or ongoing mental disturbances, every day life is going to present us with perturbations.
I try to start my day with the “mental appreciation” of the Epicurean framework.
As I review my schedule and any interactions I will have, I try to mentally preview those interactions, as an Epicurean wise man might conduct himself. That helps me set an open-minded view towards those upcoming meetings or planned calls.
Another example to apply these concepts is when I take my daily walk near downtown, with lots of construction these days. Instead of being upset about all the sidewalks along my normal walking routes being closed, I set a mental attitude of choosing the most pleasant street and shady sidewalk, while trying to avoid areas with construction workers. So, holding the Epicurean concept in your mind as you go about an active day can lead to a day with more pleasant than painful experiences.
Do examples as this help you, Rolf ?
