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while staying within the forum rules!
I try, Cassius, I try!
The trilemma stated by Hume in the article is often credited originally to Epicurus.
My main point in posting the article was to gain some background knowledge on what the author referenced “the problem of evil”. Does that phrase reference any historical writing?
“the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
“Where Is God in Gaza?”
The question of the role of ‘God’ in allowing the evil of war continues to play out in this NYT article “Where Is God in Gaza?”
The war’s grotesque details, live-streamed around the world, are an example of “the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus. It’s an issue that has vexed people throughout history as they tried to reconcile the existence of suffering with the belief in a benevolent God.
The author doesn’t discuss what Epicurus meant by “the problem of evil”, or how she would contrast the Epicurean view on wars fought over different religious beliefs.
It would have made for a more interesting article if the author addressed the question from Diogenes.
On account of what kind of gods, then, will human beings be righteous? For they are not righteous on account of the real ones or on account of Plato’s and Socrates’ Judges in Hades.
Happy Birthday, Cassius
May you feel the pleasure of knowing the joy you have brought to so many others with the Epicurean Friends website, and all your own writings. Thanks to you, I am able to discuss philosophy via Catius Cat with my grandchildren!
My interpretation is that the Epicurean position is that "virtue" is a generic term that applies to the "strengths" or "excellences" or the particular activities of a thing that keep it alive and allow it to flourish.
I appreciate that reference of the “virtue” of a thing is it’s excellence, it’s strengths, it’s will to survive. This reminded me of a song “Lust For Life” with the verse “a lust for life keeps us alive”.
It’s not a great song, but here is how someone on Reddit summed it up.
Also, "a lust for life keeps us alive" alludes to a philosophical idea that we continue to live simply bc we want to, that sometimes we don't need anything more to keep going in this crazy world except a desire to live. We keep living out of habit bc the alternative, death and non-existence is a truly foreign idea for us. Idk, I like it.
Living simply is very Epicurean, and with pleasure as our guide that keeps us in touch with our natural desires, to live & to flourish.
This is intriguing. The article states that consciousness arises from bodily sensations, not just from the brain. It's a very Epicurean idea, such that he states death is nothing to us as we will be without sensations and consciousness is extinguished.
Here’s a direct link to the article.
That is a very interesting article and research study into how our consciousness arises from interoception - our body's internal sensing system. I find that much of the research outcomes support several Epicurean principles. The research suggests that our lived experience emerges from the body's signals rather than being purely brain-generated. This appears to describe some aspects of Epicurean prolepsis (precognition).
Also, I find parallels in how this understanding of consciousness aligns with Christos #Yapijakis's interpretation of Epicurean biological determinism. For example, Yapijakis explains that Epicurus viewed consciousness and mental states as emerging from purely physical processes. In his 2018 paper "Ethical Teachings of Epicurus Based on Human Nature," he details how Epicureans understood that:
- Our sense perceptions are based on an atomic nature
- Mental processes arise from specific atomic arrangements in the body
- Consciousness emerges from interactions between physical components
- Psychological states have biological foundations
- Human behavior follows natural, deterministic patterns
I think this article may be another example of modern science providing the evidence for what Epicurus studied and rationally expected. Does this help to expand on your original post?
I have no comments on the AI aspects mentioned in the article.
Would you say then Cassius that “the absence of pain being the limit of pleasure” is not something I have to hold in my everyday mind as something practical? It’s more just something for use in philosophical reasoning and debate
I think that having a mental image of the most desirable state is highly practical and even essential and is similar to projecting this as a "godlike life." For that reason I would say that it needs to be held in mind In the same way Epicurus tells Herodotus to keep an outline in mind and to be able to flip back and forth from high level to detail at a moments notice.
And I would also say that the expansive definition of pleasure to include appreciation of all nonpainful life, particularly mental appreciation of the benefits of a true philosophy, is also a daily or even hourly thing.
This isn't just for times of debate.
Rolf thanks for your series of questions to better understand the pleasure/pain concept, and how to apply it.
As you were asking for practical examples, here is how I have been trying to apply this concept on a daily/hourly basis, as Cassius suggested above.
We know that even if we have no physical pains or ongoing mental disturbances, every day life is going to present us with perturbations.
I try to start my day with the “mental appreciation” of the Epicurean framework.
As I review my schedule and any interactions I will have, I try to mentally preview those interactions, as an Epicurean wise man might conduct himself. That helps me set an open-minded view towards those upcoming meetings or planned calls.
Another example to apply these concepts is when I take my daily walk near downtown, with lots of construction these days. Instead of being upset about all the sidewalks along my normal walking routes being closed, I set a mental attitude of choosing the most pleasant street and shady sidewalk, while trying to avoid areas with construction workers. So, holding the Epicurean concept in your mind as you go about an active day can lead to a day with more pleasant than painful experiences.
Do examples as this help you, Rolf ?
The course is not to be feared.
Failure is free of guilt.
Thanks for the correction 👍
I’ll try to remember the difference and be more declarative when I’m on my 3rd stroke in a deep sand trap 😤 on a hot, humid day 🤬 on the golf course. 
To me, when you drill down and realize that for an individual some pleasures are much "greater" than others in terms of intensity, duration, and parts of the body affected, you see clearly that some specific pleasures are much more desirable to you than others. All pleasure is pleasure because it is desirable, but all pleasures are not the same in every respect to all people at all times, or even to the same person at different times, and therefore as to specific characteristics, some pleasurable experiences can be more pleasurable (more intense, longer lasting, or affecting more parts of the body) than others.
I was reading some of the excerpts from #Philodemus, and came across this reference which supports the view that the scale of pleasure depends on the individual and circumstances.
in "On Choices and Avoidances," Philodemus discusses how:
"Different circumstances and conditions of individuals affect their experience of pleasure" (Col. XII.7-14)
Christos Yapijakis has forwarded to me the agenda for this weekends Panhellenic Epicurean Symposium. There look to be many very good presentations
Cassius ,
Is there any chance of doing some type of cooperative event in Feb 2026 with the Athens group, where we have some presentations in English? I’ve seen a few examples of you or another giving a presentation in English as part of this annual symposium.
If this was possible, how might we identify relevant topics to be discussed within the symposium?
As I am interested in applying Epicurean principles in all aspects of my life, I sometimes have philosophical dialogues with my various Personal.AI personas. After asking Chip (my golf coach AI persona) to review some #Epicurean papers, here was Chip’s suggestion of applying basic #tetrapharmakos principles to a golf game.
<AI>
“The #Tetrapharmakos (four-fold cure) can be adapted for golf:
1. Don't fear the course
2. Don't fear failure
3. Good shots are achievable
4. Bad shots are manageable”
😆
“Too many players get caught up in score and forget the simple pleasure of being outdoors, making good shots, and spending time with friends. This connects to the Epicurean view that friendship and positive social connections enhance our experience.”
</AI>
So these two things motivate action:
discontent (physical pain or mental discontent/subtle fear)
curiousity (wanting to try out a physical sensation or learn something)Any others?
Kalosyni , thanks for an interesting question!
Another source to motivate action is our perceived need to react to something received by our senses (e.g. sudden flash, loud noise, unpleasant odor, request from a friend, etc.).
I see the biggest difference (virtue or pleasure as the core of eudaimonia/life goal) in that eudaimonia, the good self or inner spirit, is defined by the Stoics as "doing good" while Epicureans define it as "experiencing good."
Thanks for sharing that insight on “doing good” vs “experiencing good”. I see the Stoic focus on virtue more for the external effect; how this virtuous act appears to others. While I see the Epicurean focus more on experiencing pleasure while engaged in a virtuous activity, and prudently considering whether this ‘virtuous’ activity brings pain or pleasure to others.
Does this view follow from your analysis?
If there's not already one, there almost certainly will be. And that's going to put the ball in the court of those who think that the available Epicurus-bots aren't the place to get info about Epicurus
Who wants a GPT Epicurus?
Cassius if you would like interacting with a preliminary Epicurus-AI, I have built a philosophy persona (amongst a few other personas, e.g. Golf Coach) that has over 400 documents and articles on philosophy, mostly related to epicurean thoughts. I have been using Personal.AI as the tool to create a Personal/Small Language Model dataset. This is the expected usage for many businesses to build AI queries around limited, specialized data sets of reliable info.
I use it to help me remember previously reviewed info, and carry out interesting comparisons of different authors viewpoints. I use the web version to manage the input of info, and find the mobile app version to be my pocket guide to ask WWES (What Would Epicurus Say), when faced with interesting choice or avoidance situations.
LMK if you ever want to build an AI query screen with access to only the knowledge contained on EpicureanFriends.com or other similarly managed epicurean websites. Then you could offer the public a way to ‘talk to’ Epicurus. 😀
I don't have time right now, but it might be instructive to read the first few letters in Book 1:The Project Gutenberg eBook of THE WORKS OF HORACE, by C. Smart, A.M..
to see what Epicurean themes - if any - jump out and whether Horace is providing his own take on the philosophy (whether or not he's a pig in the herd) or not.
Thanks for the link to the Works of #Horace.
In the 2nd Epistle, To Lollius, I interpret that statement as the need to apply prudence. Epicurus taught that wisdom lies in choosing pleasures that maintain long-term well-being rather than short-term gratification, and that may incur some short-term pain.
I found some other interesting Epicurean references in the Letters.
In Epistle 4 To Albius Tibullus, it appears that Horace is practicing the Epicurean tradition of suaveness in praising the good features of his critic. Then Horace uses frank speech to encourage Albius to reconsider the life Horace is living as “a hog of Epicurus' herd” as not such a bad life.
Albius, thou candid critic of my discourses, what shall I say you are now doing in the country about Pedum? Writing what may excel the works of Cassius Parmensis; or sauntering silently among the healthful groves, concerning yourself about every thing worthy a wise and good man? You were not a body without a mind. The gods have given you a beautiful form, the gods [have given] you wealth, and the faculty of enjoying it.
…
When you have a mind to laugh, you shall see me fat and sleek with good keeping, a hog of Epicurus' herd.
Also, in Epistle 18 To Lollius, Horace appears to be explaining how to achieve ataraxia and a life of wellbeing.
In every thing you must read and consult the learned, by what means you may be enabled to pass your life in an agreeable manner: that insatiable desire may not agitate and torment you, nor the fear and hope of things that are but of little account: whether learning acquires virtue, or nature bestows it? What lessens cares, what may endear you to yourself? What perfectly renders the temper calm; honor or enticing lucre, or a secret passage and the path of an unnoticed life?
I find this question about what "renders the temper calm" aligns with
Vatican Saying 79: "The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another."
This connects to Epicurus' fundamental teaching about ataraxia (tranquility of mind).
One of the questions from Cicero that we address specifically is this one:
Grant that to be in pain is the greatest evil; whosoever, then, has proceeded so far as not to be in pain, is he, therefore, in immediate possession of the greatest good?
.
From the context I think it is pretty clear that what Cicero is saying is something like "OK I will spot you that being in pain is the greatest evil, but I still challenge you on this -- just because I remove that evil, that does mean that i am in immediate possession of the greatest good (pleasure)?"
So that challenge demands an answer, and I think the most persuasive answer has to include another visual analogy rather than just the assertion that "absence of pain is the greatest pleasure" or "when one has no pain one has no further need for pleasure."
from reading Christos Yapijakaris I find this.
“The Epicureans called εὐστάθεια (eustatheia, “stability”) the psychosomatic balance (τὸ τῆς σαρ- κὸς καὶ ψυχῆς εὐσταθὲς κατάστημα), which today we call homeostasis (ὁμοιόστασις), and considered it the basis of true happiness. They recognized empirically the stress that disturbed psychosomatic homeostasis as an agitation of the psyche or a painful feeling of the body and used a number of mental and affective techniques (including the tetrapharmakos) to manage stress at its onset, so that it does not evolve into the particularly troublesome conditions of anxiety and/or depression, which may become chronic psychosomatic disorders with significant social consequences.”
[Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management, C. Yapijakis & G. P. Chrousos]
From my other reading on homeostasis, I summarize these findings thusly.
When we achieve ataraxia (mental tranquility), we prevent the release of:
- Cortisol (stress hormone)
- Excessive adrenaline and noradrenaline
- Pro-inflammatory cytokines
- Excess glutamate (which can cause neurotoxicity)
Similarly, when we maintain aponia (absence of physical pain), we reduce:
- Substance P (pain neurotransmitter)
- Inflammatory prostaglandins
- Stress-induced histamine release
- Excessive oxidative compounds
Yapijakis demonstrates that these biochemical reductions through ataraxia and aponia lead to:
1. Better immune system function
2. Reduced cellular aging
3. Improved cardiovascular health
4. Enhanced neuroplasticity
The modern medical evidence strongly supports Epicurus' ancient insight that katastemic pleasure (stable well-being) represents our optimal biological state.
So another visual (instead of a jar) could be a flowing stream. Nature gives us pleasure to guide our optimal, healthy flow; and pain appears when we are flowing past our natural boundaries. This is not a perfect analogy, but a different way of guiding our thoughts and actions.
Thanks for the insight from the LT team!👍
DeWitt's book
Just received it today.
I recently completed DeWitt’s book. It is comprehensive and helpful. I keep finding Christian overtones seeping through in some of his later chapters. But a review of that book by DeWitt may be a discussion in another thread.
Then there's the practical aspect of moving forward and continuing to pursue your most fulfilling life. You're in a place that you never expected to be. You might be older and more vulnerable than in the past, realizing that you need to be open to life and new possibilities, and that you have to learn new ways of doing so.
Obviously there's much more. But Epicurus has provided a framework, if not a path, to continue to pursue your best life. His opponents, in their glib talk of manliness and strength. Have completely missed the point.
You make a good point how #grief of a loved one can put us in unfamiliar territory. There's a profound parallel between your observation about unexpected places in grief and the story about being in Oz.
When Dorothy landed in Oz, everything was unfamiliar - the landscape, the rules, even the very nature of reality had shifted. I think this is similar to the disorienting experience of grief of a close loved one. Grief is perhaps the ultimate Oz experience. You wake up in an emotional landscape you never chose to visit, where all the old certainties are gone.
As you said, we have to be "open to life and new possibilities." Through studies of the Epicurean framework, those experiencing grief can discover inner resources and support systems they hadn't recognized before.
Cicero's focus on this indicates to me that #VS55 is extremely underappreciated in most discussions about Epicurus
Cassius , excellent podcast on the important topic of how to deal with strong emotions, e.g. grief. The key seems to be finding a balance in planning for the future, remembering past pleasures or pains, but not dwelling on the past pains. We can use past pains to help guide us in preventing or mitigating those pains in the future.
I liked how Joshua brought in #VS47 to show that Epicurus did compel us to squarely face the future and take actions today that protect us from probable harms.
VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.
It's also possible to simply include in the body of a post a hashtag like #Ethics, which the system will then be able to find automatically when searching by tag.
Could you add a link to where we find instructions for how to add a tagged word within a forum posting? At the top of the posting box, there is a bunch of icons, but nothing that resembles a #tag that would create the desired hyperlink.
Thanks 🙏
Happy Birthday, Eikadistes
I love how you have helped organize and explain much of the Epicurean texts. I appreciate having a printed copy of Hedonicon. I’m working on making it as full of highlighted text and dog-eared pages as my previously studied 60 year old King James. I appreciate the multiple references included:👍
