I don't have any good links in English yet but this year's symposium in Athens Greece is coming up this weekend. Here's a PDF in Greek of the agenda - if someone knows a good way to get this in English please link it in this thread
Cassius
I was not able to open the link provided.
I did open this root URL
Επίκουρος - Επικούρεια Φιλοσοφία
If we can get access to pdf docs of the presentations (in Greek I expect), the Google translation gives us some ideas of the message's.
Wisdom (Prudence), Courage, Temperance, and Justice are ESSENTIAL root-tools for us to regulate our desires
DaveT ,
Could you provide your definitions for these terms, or is there an Epicurean text that groups these 4 virtues as essential?
For example, in PD5, as Kalosyni just cited, we find prudence and justice. But where is temperance required, if I am living prudently, and justly with my neighbors?
I agree that it is good to express and examine our current understanding of the principles. When it comes to listing any 4 virtues as essential for a life of wellbeing, I don’t think that is an arbiter which all persons pursuing an Epicurean life would agree upon.
As Godfrey said
Each of these central virtues obviously means different things to different people and cultures, and they don't preclude additional virtues. The ultimate arbiter is inside each of us and not in a government, a political party, a social group or in an absolute something-or-other.
And in fact the accurate knowledge of details will be fully discovered, if the general principles in the various departments are thoroughly grasped and borne in mind; for even in the case of one fully initiated the most essential feature in all accurate knowledge is the capacity to make a rapid use of observation and mental apprehension,
…
The investigation of nature is important so that one understands that god/gods are not creating all the phenomenon of the world, but that the phenonenon of the world are caused by naturally occurring processes unrelated in any way to god/gods.
Kalosyni ,
Thank you for raising this topic.
As I read the first quotation you mentioned, I am struck by the need for keen observation in order to gain accurate knowledge! This means not only looking at something in nature, but really seeing and studying how nature reveals more details. The “mental apprehension” I have found is built through repeated experiences; which is how our ‘prolepsis’ of a natural phenomenon is further developed. Thus, repeated exposure within nature, especially forests, rivers, coastlines; helps build deeper connections for us humans to thoroughly grasp the details of nature’s miraculous processes.
This message of setting a goal, means we can’t just think or read about nature or a natural process, we have to better understand what are our “natural” desires, [Know Thyself] and which are necessary for our life of physical, mental and spiritual wellbeing. So, it seems to me that this message says we need to spend time in and with nature, in order to feel the full effect of the natural processes that helps guide us to make better choices and avoidances, based on more accurate knowledge of ourselves and our natural environment.
This view is not meant as the only way to interpret or apply the principles of the quotation, but simply the way the words resonate with how I find these Epicurean sayings bring me closer to and appreciating nature. I find that daily time in nature has enabled me to be in more of a daily/hourly “flow” with the environment (people, places, news) I encounter each day. This results in the wellbeing spirit (eudaimonia) we seek.
I’d love to hear how other of our Epicurean friends view and apply this concept.
Thomas Nail appears to be an example of someone looking to bend the simplicity of atomic nothing-comes-from-nothing physics to allow for the existence and control of supernatural otherworldly forces.
There's no way to stand up to fantasizing except to insist on real evidence given to us by nature as self-evident, and that's what Epicurus' canonics is all about.
Cassius ,
I don't quite see where you make this assumption that Thomas Nail is introducing "supernatural otherworldly forces". Or have I mis-read your post #14.
I read Nail's papers more as simply mis-translating [as Bryan pointed out in post #10] to infer that Lucretius understood and was trying to write about the flow and folds of nature as if Lucretius' prefigured Quantum wavefunctions.
"However, in addition to these insights, my books have tried to argue that Lucretius also prefigured quantum theory’s understanding of entanglement and indeterminacy." [Thomas Nail]
I can see Nail's work as a "strong misreading" of DRN—philosophically productive but historically stretched. Where, Nail could have simply drawn careful analogies between Lucretius's atomic swerve (clinamen) and quantum indeterminacy and wave functions driving motion; Nail went further to present this as historical claim to be seen in passages of DRN.
However, I find no mention of Nail discussing "supernatural otherworldly forces". In fact the forces that occur from "motion" create effects which our human senses can not detect, may be better understood today by modern quantum effects.
I thought the critique given by professor Michael Bennett of Nail's work which I quoted his conclusion in my post #11 clarified that Nail was not proposing "supernatural otherworldly forces" in his theory of motion.
Nothing I have said poses a challenge to the project of developing an ontology of motion adequate to the ethical, political, aesthetic and scientific realities of the present day. Nor have I called into question the consistency or originality Nail claims for the theory of motion presented in the first book of Being and Motion (BM 13). In fact, I have perhaps emphasized its originality—though at the expense of Lucretius’s.
Thanks for your commentary, as it helps me keep reading!
As I have time to read many of the other Nail papers, I'll have a better understanding. Starting with: "THE PHILOSOPHY OF MOVEMENT - An Introduction"
The idea of "flow" will not be found in any dictionary entry for Corpora (link for example). There is no place in Latin literature where Corpora means anything close to "flows."
Thank you Bryan for further educating us on this translation and interpretation from Thomas Nail. I find that your analysis is more historically accurate. But to better understand more of what Thomas Nail was attempting to convey, I consulted additional references.
Michael Bennet also takes Nail to task in his 2022 article in Parrhesia.
nail’s lucretius: strong misreading and whig history
Bennett concludes with this assessment:
Nothing I have said poses a challenge to the project of developing an ontology of motion adequate to the ethical, political, aesthetic and scientific realities of the present day. Nor have I called into question the consistency or originality Nail claims for the theory of motion presented in the first book of Being and Motion (BM 13). In fact, I have perhaps emphasized its originality—though at the expense of Lucretius’s. I have, however, cast doubt on Nail’s way of reading Lucretius, and so, perhaps, also on his claim that “it is fitting” for a “new materialism” today to return to De Rerum Natura, with which “the entire history of an error began” (LOM 273)—namely, the supposed error of reading it as an atomist text.
Just for grins, I also consulted Perplexity AI:
Thomas Nail’s reading is not simply “right” or “wrong”; it is a deliberately speculative, philosophical reinterpretation of Lucretius that goes well beyond what the poem itself, or mainstream Lucretius scholarship, would warrant as historically accurate.
...
So: as historical exegesis, claiming that Lucretius is “really” a theorist of flows and folds anticipating quantum field theory overstates the case and conflicts with the mainstream, atomist reading. As a philosophical reception or creative re‑appropriation, Nail’s reading is legitimate and interesting, but its success is measured by its philosophical fruitfulness, not by fidelity to Lucretius’s own conceptual world.
...
If the question is: “Is Nail offering a productive, contemporary way to read Lucretius that resonates with some features of modern physics?” then the answer is: possibly yes, as long as we recognize that this is a strong, creative misreading rather than a neutral historical interpretation.
The commentary provided by others on this thread are quite helpful in adjusting how best to read such interesting perspectives on Lucretius DRN from modern philosophy professors, such as Thomas Nail. However, Nail did publish his theory of motion in Lucretius in three parts from 2018 to 2022, with a further update in 2024:
Lucretius I: An Ontology of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2018)
Lucretius II: An Ethics of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2020)
Lucretius III: A History of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2022)
The Philosophy of Movement: An Introduction (University of Minnesota Press, 2024)
It will take me awhile to read through these other papers by Nail to more fully understand his perspective. Through this forum, it will be interesting to keep these modern views in balance with the initial historical writings of Lucretius. Thanks to all for your added knowledge, as we continue studying Lucretius.
I just read the article. I agree with some of Nail's points on ethics (especially his implicit or explicit criticism of too much focus on static / katastematic ideas) but I am not seeing the profound differences between Lucretius and Epicurus that he claims to see as to particles or the resulting nature of the universe.
In fact I don't think his article gives a clear statement of where he is going with his whole argument. He seems to think there are profound implications in Lucretius deviating from Epicurus - but so far as I can tell he is not explaining what significance there is in what he is seeing.
I gather he is focusing on implications of motion but I see no reason why what he talks about as to motion is not already in Epicurus.
The article has lots of energetic argument but at least for me I don't see why he is so worked up.
Kalosyni ,
Thanks for posting this paper by Nail. I am finding some profound enlightenment from the perspective presented.
Cassius ,
I may be misinterpreting Nail’s views but these are his statements that show a difference in approach to understanding how Lucretius describes the flow & folding.
Lucretius also prefigured quantum theory’s understanding of entanglement and indeterminacy.
…
Instead of talking about discrete particles, Lucretius talks endlessly about flows and folds. These are the core tenets of what I call Lucretius’ “kinetic materialism.” If matter does not flow it cannot fold; if it folds it must also flow. However, if we interpret Lucretius’ concept of corpora as ‘discrete particles’ or ‘atoms’ instead of flows, his whole conceptual edifice of folding [plex] (simplex, duplex, complex, amplex) completely unravels. Atoms simply cannot fold.…
Since the soul and body come into being with their matters “woven” [inplexis] (3.331) together and “roots” [radicibus] (3.325) growing together, they are also “unwoven” or “untied” [dissolu-antur] (3.330) together as well. Since the soul and body are in constant motion, then it follows that the soul is always weaving.
Modern quantum field theory describes "atomic particles" as emergent from wave functions when observed—which aligns precisely with what Nail's arguing about flows producing folds, not vice versa. Thus, I do see a difference between Epicurus and Lucretius describing the differing approaches of their physics. Sometimes artists, poets can interpret nature and reality in ‘flowing’ texts, or flowing brush stokes that provides a different perspective from a particle-driven viewpoint.
I also find that this perspective of flows and weaving folds is reflected in how some indigenous cultures describe their connection with Nature (e.g. Mother Nature). They see the flows of nature, even in their own souls. In some indigenous cultures, the women (the creative life bearers) are the only ones allowed to weave, as that is their spiritual way of connecting to Mother Nature.
In other words we can't wait forever debating "what does happiness mean." We have to decide NOW whether our goal is happiness, or obeying the gods, or being "rational," or being a "good person," or whatever. So I think it's a mistake to think that we have to know all there is to know about the etymology of happiness before we decide how to organize our lives.
Cassius ,
Thanks for the Claude (AI) bibliography, which I am finding most thorough and helpful. To answer your key question, "what is happiness", I agree that we cannot afford to wait for perfect clarity before we must act to implement Epicurean principles.
We face choices every moment, every day; so I don't find this question as merely academic. We must choose whether to organize our lives around the pursuit of happiness, or around obedience to divine will, or around abstract rationality, or around virtue as an end in itself?
If I understand correctly, Epicurus gave a clear principle: examine your desires, distinguish the necessary from the unnecessary, and pursue what genuinely produces peace of mind and freedom from pain. This is a guide for healthy living now.
The real question becomes: will we trust the guidance nature has given us, or will we defer to external authorities? As I develop trust in nature's guidance, the path forward becomes clearer. And I find the guidance from studying the Epicurean principles, provides examples and advice on how to focus honest attention on what produces genuine tranquility in our lives and what disturbs it. This seems to be a good path for pursuing a life of well-being.
In a very strong sense. The purpose and benefit of the forum is to allow us to communicate with and be inspired by like-minded people. There are many other regular contributors who could have been listed,
Thank you, Cassius, for you leadership and mentorship.I appreciate your thoughtful guidance for us newbies. You certainly help participants feel welcome and encouraged to share their thoughts and perspectives. This website is a place for significant learning! 👍
Eikadistes is the one who has set up his own website, prepared very substantive original materials, published them, and generally become and independent source of Epicurean learning.
Eikadistes , this commentary from Cassius is well deserved! I have found it so valuable have a paperback copy of your Hedonicon (or the Holy Book of Epicurus) which is my Epicurean Bible. Thanks for compiling this book and for your living translations.
Greetings, all! I published some thoughts about the limitations in our employment of the word "atomism" as an expression of ancient Epicurean particle physics. I'll admit that I might be splitting hairs here, and exploiting a post-structuralist position about the symbols and their context
Thank you for illuminating us as you ‘share the original flavor of the “true philosophy”’! I greatly appreciate how you provide such in-depth review of the ancient text and translations from Greek to Latin. You provide us an interesting educational viewpoint by challenging the linguistic conventions that have obscured our understanding of the Sage's teachings. By focusing on the actual words from Epicurus, we better understand how he preserves the reality of sensation and the reliability of perception in describing his physics.
Thanks for an enlightening article. 👍
A word of caution here, that the writings by Hiram that are referred to in the above post can be characterized as unique interpretations of Epicurean philosophy that: at times incorporate elements and ideas from external sources -- and at times are speculative in nature (do not come from direct textual evidence).
Kalosyni , I appreciate you reading and taking time to comment on my post.
While I referenced Hiram Crespo based on his recent series of Eikas messages that made some references to meditation, I have also been studying the topic of meditation (meleta) from multiple sources. I find that Crespo provides an added perspective (not speculative), that still reflects the intent of the original Epicurean text. Epicurus clearly advocated that we engage in meleta on a regular basis ("day and night"), as he states that admonition twice in the Letter to Menoikeus.
"You must study and meditate upon that which produces eudaimonia." [122]
○ χρή expresses necessity! It is essential - to study, reflect, and meditate on…
● μελετᾶν carries the sense of attending to something closely, studying it, or meditating on
it. It also means "to practise an art" and is akin to the Latin word meditari. We see this
word again in verse 123 and 135.. εὐδαιμονία is defined by LSJ as "prosperity, good fortune, opulence; true, full happiness."
The word is derived from εὐ- (eu-) "well, good" + δαιμονία (daimonia) "spirit, divine power."
This is where English gets the word "demon" but it could be either benevolent (eudaimon) or
malevolent (kakodaimon). If you have a good, benevolent in-dwelling spirit, you will lead a
prosperous, healthy, flourishing, fortunate life....
ἃ δέ σοι συνεχῶς παρήγγελλον, ταῦτα καὶ πρᾶττε καὶ μελέτα, στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν ταῦτ’ εἶναι
διαλαμβάνων.
"And to you (i.e., Menoikeus), I (i.e., Epicurus) was continuously exhorting to practice, to study,
and to meditate on those things which I state distinctly to be the basic elements of a noble,
beautiful, and virtuous life."
[Primary Source: Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Eminent Philosophers, Book X.121-135 Meditate Οn Τhese Things: Epicurus’s Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary © 2021 by Don Boozer]
Because it is a 'necessity' that we study and meditate daily; most of us need to plan, set-aside times for this type of deep meditation/reflection. So, while we can/should sing and repeat Epicurean quotes throughout the day; I usually need to set aside 15 to 20 minutes in the evening for a rigorous reflection, a nuktos meleta, the evening practice that Epicurus himself prescribed. My meditation usually follows reading/studying texts and articles for a couple hours earlier in the day .
And in order to meditate on how to train my 'divine spirit' (daimonia) to be more benevolent, I reflect on how well I treated others throughout the day, and identify areas of improvement. Then I engage in deep meditation, while reflecting on impressions of "blessed and immortal beings", so I can better envision how to 'adjust my course' in order to be 'steering ourselves toward tranquility and flourishing'.
This is how I understand the purpose and value in Epicurean meditation. This also fits with the description in the chapter on Theology in the Oxford Handbook on Epicureanism. They discuss using meditation, prayer to interiorize, to assimilate the blessedness of the gods.
The simulacra of the gods, then, bring benefits, and thus to participate in prayers and in religious ceremonies (cf. Diog. Oen. fr. 19 II 6– 11 Smith) means to “interiorize” in an effective way the (pleasurable) divine simulacra and to put into practice the commitment to become like a god among men.54 In this sense, the gods are not only ethical models and regulative ideals, introduced by Epicurus solely in order to render his philosophical system consistent with his recognition of beings that are eternally and genuinely imperturbable. Epicurus’s gods also become figures highly relevant to our ethical life, playing a role that is at least indirectly active (although without any deliberate intention on their part), in virtue of the benefits that their simulacra bring us in practice on the not always easy road toward assimilation to god (homoiōsis theōi), which has a Platonic pedigree (cf. Theaet. 176a– b) but is totally of this world and bounded by the limits of this life.55
Chapter 5 - Theology, Emidio Spinelli and Francesco Verde, Oxford Handbook of Epicurus and Epicureanism (2020) (Kindle Locations 2638-2646). Kindle Edition.
I hope these added references help to reinforce the Epicurean approach to meditation and reflection.
My intention wasn't necessarily to demonstrate that Seneca could offer any useful philosophical advice for Epicureans. Rather, I'm aiming to distill the specific exercise itself. In this case, regularly reviewing everyday events in order to learn from them.
In fact, I could have omitted Seneca's quote from this post altogether. I included it more as a curiosity that some ancient people used something like this.
Welcome, and thanks for your post.
From my reading, Epicurus did teach us a similar meditation practice himself. Meleta is the Epicurean practice of contemplation and philosophical exercise.
In "Choosing to Remember and to Forget," Hiram Crespo speaks of nuktos meleta, the evening practice that Epicurus himself prescribed. This appears to be the reflective meditation you describe. After the day has concluded, we sit in quiet contemplation and examine what has transpired. We ask ourselves the very questions you mention: Did we accomplish what we set out to do? Did we treat others with the kindness and fairness we expect for ourselves? Where did we fall short, and what might we do differently tomorrow to move closer to ataraxia?
This evening reflection serves a dual purpose. First, it allows us to learn from our actions and adjust our course—what Crespo calls "inner motion," the active exercise of reason and will toward future goods. We are not passive creatures drifting through life, but deliberate agents steering ourselves toward tranquility and flourishing.
Second, and equally important, this practice culminates in zuowang—sitting and forgetting. After honest reflection, we release the day's perturbations. We do not cling to regrets or ruminate endlessly on our failures. Instead, we acknowledge them, learn from them, and then consciously let them go. This is the art of forgetting as an active practice, not a weakness but a necessity for mental health and presence.
In my personal adoption of this meleta approach, I found that it adds another dimension to my daily meditations by providing a template for a more rigorous philosophical discipline—one that simultaneously cultivates self-awareness and liberation from unnecessary suffering. While I may not be as rigorous in applying these techniques daily, I do find them useful to incorporate it multiple times a week, which helps keep me focused on my Epicurean priorities that lead to a life of mental and physical wellbeing.
You will find more rigorous Epicurean practices of teacher or self critique in the works of Philodemus, such as On Frank Criticism, and On Anger.
In addition, here are a couple of related postings by Crespo on the topic of Meleta.
Those are just a few guides that I have been using as a new student of Epicurus, to apply in my personal life. Hopefully, you will find what works for you as you progress through your studies here with your Epicurean Friends.
Contents of the book: Theory and Practice In Epicurean Political Philosophy - Security, Justice, and Tranquility - Javier Aoiz and Marcelo Boeri
The full 249 pages is available to download here:
Cassius , In our Sunday discussion, there was mention of Epicurus and the Eleusinian Mysteries. Here is a link to the article where this was discussed.
by Hiram Crespo.
In his Epistle to Timarchus, Metrodorus says:
"Let us respond to beauty with beauty: for, by plunging, so to speak, into a communion of affection, we have freed ourselves from earthly life to rise to the mysteries of Epicurus, a truly divine revelation." - as reported in Against Colotes, 1117
Hiram provides quite a few textual references and focuses on translations to bring out a better understanding of his references to the Epicurean Mysteries and concludes his article with this.
I believe both Metrodorus and Epicurus, as well as their companions, were natural mystics. Like Carl Sagan and Neil DeGrasse, they derived blissful awe from the study and contemplation of nature. They were mystics in the Greek sense of the word mystes: they had been initiated into certain doctrines, which unified them and made them an inner group of like-minded co-religionaries.
Metrodorus’ emphatic use of “truly” in his Epistle to Timarchus demonstrates that these mysteries were not a mere parody, but were considered an initiation into an accurate, scientific, natural cosmology that freed initiates from superstitious fears and errors. I conclude that the Epicurean Kathegemones—although they rejected supernatural claims—were, therefore, in their own way, no less than mystics, and that they in fact saw themselves as mystics according to the true prolepsis of the word.
This is a way that I feel Epicurus taught us to study nature to better understand her mysteries.
I´ve found the book "Crooked Thinking or Straight Talk?: Modernizing Epicurean Scientific Philosophy" with an interesting Table of contents and a good Reading sample / preface
Free download of a 4-page summary is available here:
Good morning!! I'm very interested in the science of the Epicurean philosophy and would love to learn a little Latin as well. I live in the Bible belt of America, North Carolina so superstition is strong down here.
Welcome EdGenX
I too like to study science and find the Epicurean focus on Nature and physics quite interesting. A fundamental text on science is Epicurus's own Letter to Herodotus, which he explicitly designed as a summary of his physics—the study of nature. In it, he states clearly:
"Wherefore since the method I have described is valuable to all those who are accustomed to the investigation of nature, I who urge upon others the constant occupation in the investigation of nature, and find my own peace chiefly in a life so occupied, have composed for you another epitome on these lines, summing up the first principles of the whole doctrine.."
Epicurus' Letter to Herodotus
I found this one on Epicurus vs Pascal - not sure if there are more. I like how it focuses on the existence of the supernatural is key to the difference.
Thanks, Cassius
Here’s another: Rumi v. Epicurus
I think the Epicurus v. Pascal had better Epicureans responses, than the Epicurus v. Rumi video.
So then in essence this list has slightly different definitions than what has been said in other places on the forum, and it is also different from what is in Austin's book "Living for Pleasure"...
.
Thoughts?
Kalosyni I see these categories as diagnostic tools for self-examination; where the purpose of classification is to reveal whether a desire leads us toward or away from tranquility.
As Matteng indicated, we should use sober reasoning to ask how does my pursuit of X affect my ataraxia?
Cassius Thanks for this topic to study Lucretius OTNOT. In looking at the first lines, it reveals much about how nature creates and sustains all life. Notice how Lucretius places the importance of sun light for all living things.
MOTHER of the Aeneadae, darling of men and gods, increase-giving Venus, who beneath the gliding signs of heaven fillest with thy presence the ship-carrying sea, the corn-bearing lands, since through thee every kind of living things is conceived, rises up and beholds the light of the sun.
Now modern science can explain more today just how important it is for LIFE that “every kind of living things … beholds the light of the sun”. See this article:
Sunlight as a key human energy source
Clearly, sunlight drives much of what happens on Earth, including the growth of plant life through photosynthesis. The latter process involves plants using sunlight to create nutrients, from carbon dioxide and water.
With that in mind, it stands to reason that sunlight - entering our body through our eyes and skin - interacts with the human form in multiple ways. That includes stimulating repair, detoxification and energy.
The Principle of Photochemical Activation (The Grotthuss–Draper law) dictates that only absorbed light can create photochemical/biological change.Human bodies are capable of that light absorption. That is because we have multiple biological molecules that contain chromophores. Each of these is ‘tuned’ into processing different light frequencies.
Hi, I'd like to ask you about the methods the Epicureans taught for improving our habits and avoiding unnecessary emotions.
Surely, each of us is sometimes influenced by an impulse that, if acted upon, leads to bad consequences (for example, eating junk food, smoking cigarettes), or we experience emotions that cause us to do something we shouldn't.
Here’s are some examples of writings I have found helpful in dealing with hurtful choices.
Philodemus' On Anger provides the most detailed practical methodology. He acknowledged that anger arises from our nature and should be treated with compassion rather than suppression
Philodemus’ On Frank Speech describe the used of "frank criticism" (parrhesia) within the community of friends. This involves honest, caring confrontation where friends help each other identify harmful patterns. Philodemus emphasized this must be done with gentleness and proper timing.
